Viewing 40 posts - 1,961 through 2,000 (of 3,980 total)
  • Liz! Truss!
  • binners
    Full Member

    Are you suggesting they now nuke Birmingham?

    Actually… that doesn’t sound like a bad idea

    molgrips
    Full Member

    Whatever problems FPTP might throw up it is not the primary problem,

    Actually, I think it is.

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    Actually, I think it is.

    Which isn’t in the least bit surprising as issues concerning class interests are overwhelmingly ignored in UK politics.

    Recent opinion polls have suggested staggering Labour majorities of well over a 100 if a general election was held right now under FPTP.

    So the Tories can easily lose elections under FPTP.

    The reason the Tories are polling so badly at the moment is because of Liz Truss’s policy of rewarding the rich for being rich and expecting everyone else to pay for it, through lower wages and almost certainly poorer services and benefits.

    Bankers will get huge mindboggling bonuses and nurses will get real wage cuts.

    This provides a stark reality check to British voters that this government represents the interests of an elite few – and they make very little attempt to even bother hiding it.

    FPTP is not necessarily an obstacle in defeating the Tories. What is vital however is that voters understand whose interests the Tories exist to serve. Once that has been established it becomes relatively easy to defeat the Tories.

    stevextc
    Free Member

    ErnieLynch

    That is because you apparently spectacularly fail to understand the class nature of UK politics.

    The Tories represent the interests of the 1-2%, there is no reason why FPTP should benefit them. On the contrary.

    And yet despite that they are one of the most successful political parties in the western world.

    Edit: The reason why the Tories are successful is because there is a consistent failure to understand whose interests they represent, not because of FPTP.

    Whilst that is true longer term …

    The current Tory policy doesn’t represent anything like the top 1-2% … more like 0.01-0.02%

    Some exec on 200k just had 10%+ of her pension fund wiped out that she’s been paying into for probably longer than a decade. Her mortgage has gone up
    Lets randomly take Shell PLC (since Truss used to work for her) that employs 6000 or so but there are probably <15 earning 200k or close and probably 5,000 on NMW working in service stations.

    Anyway the marginal tax gains on say 200k are hardly going to compensate for the loss of pension, mortgage etc. thanks to Truss-o-nomics

    Do you believe that most Tory voters recognise that? Do you believe that 99% of Tory voters simply vote Tory as a philanthropic act to benefit the 1-2%?

    Erm nope the Red Wall voted tory because of Wokism… and they will next time
    Those, especially red wall ex traditional labour are just sick of being told what they can and can’t think or say and would rather be broke than have more Wokism

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    Erm nope the Red Wall voted tory because of Wokism… and they will next time

    That’s obviously your opinion based on the now well-established stw vilification of working-class voters.

    I strenously disagree on two levels. The 2019 general election result had nothing to do with “wokism”, and there is no evidence that “the Red Wall” will vote Tory next election.

    In fact the evidence currently is that Tory support in those areas has haemorrhaged far more than in other areas.

    Has “wokism” ceased to be an issue, or is it connected to the current Tory leader’s unashamed determination to make the wealthy elite even wealthier?

    Latest Red Wall Voting Intention (3-4 October 2022)

    Our latest Red Wall poll finds Labour leading the Conservatives by 38%, a staggering twenty-three points more than in our previous poll two weeks ago, and the largest lead ever achieved by any party in our Red Wall polling. Altogether, the results of our poll (with changes from 19-20 September) are as follows:

    Labour 61% (+12)
    Conservative 23% (-11)
    Reform UK 3% (-4)
    Liberal Democrat 7% (+2)
    Green 4% (–)
    Plaid Cymru 1% (+1)
    Other 1% (–)

    stevextc
    Free Member

    Has “wokism” ceased to be an issue, or is it connected to the current Tory leader’s unashamed determination to make the wealthy elite even wealthier?

    It’s a meaningless word but that doesn’t top it determining how people vote.

    That’s obviously your opinion based on the now well-established stw vilification of working-class voters.

    No it’s my opinion based on former lifelong Red wall labour voters.

    STW not withstanding then vilification is a little abstract and does your definition of “working class” extend to the 98%?

    You said

    Do you believe that 99% of Tory voters simply vote Tory as a philanthropic act to benefit the 1-2%?

    Another way to look at this… Red Wall voters voted for things that were more important to them than money… they also voted strongly to leave the EU.

    You or I may not agree with their reasons BUT independent of who the following is attributed to “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it” this is what Labour have failed to do.

    Another way to look at his is there is almost no working class anymore.

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    there is almost no working class anymore.

    So who inhabits these “Red Wall” seats which you appear to attach a great deal of importance to and see as some sort of typical Tory voter?

    Affluent middle-class professionals?

    binners
    Full Member

    *sips latte while reading the Guardian*

    kelvin
    Full Member

    What shall we call this?

    Operation “Bigger Fridge”?

    Operation “Don’t ask me, I’m only the PM”?

    No, no, needs to be three letters…

    “Leave in silence”?

    Rubbish… can some brighter minds apply their brain cells to it…?

    cookeaa
    Full Member

    Erm nope the Red Wall voted tory because of Wokism… and they will next time
    Those, especially red wall ex traditional labour are just sick of being told what they can and can’t think or say and would rather be broke than have more Wokism

    An interesting take I suppose.

    And TBF I think the Tory party still see those who define their political world view mainly by what they’re ‘against’ rather than ‘for’ as worth attracting, it’s more “anti-wokism” or maybe US style libertarianism that they’re keen to cultivate.
    Cruella Braverman certainly likes to blow that dog whistle and Lizzy’s list of groups that make up the “Anti-Growth Coalition” was clearly intended to play a similar tune…

    But I think it’s worth noting the Red wall voters were promised quite a lot in 2019 and they’d maybe be prudent to ask if much ever came of those promises…

    “Growth, growth and growth!” is being focussed on by both major parties, what really is the difference between “Growth” and “Levelling up” at the end of the day?

    As nice as it would be if blocks of voters simply voted on single issues, very few people are that simple in their motivations.

    Back in 2019 the overlap between ardently anti-woke, fiscally conservative, habitual Tory voter, starry-eyed believer in Levelling up, brexiteer, etc all nicely overlapped for Bozza to give him some new seats…

    I don’t think Liz can rely on her team presenting the same Venn diagram any time soon…

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    sips latte while reading the Guardian

    Please tell me that it’s not made with cow’s milk.

    Sandwich
    Full Member

    Tories aren’t one of the most successful political party in the western world because of FPTP but because of the support which they receive.

    It doesn’t hurt though as your comment about being the most successful party in the Western world demonstrates. I’d be happy to have PR as it will prevent extremist left or right wing parties running the executive. It will allow them representation and damp that part of the electorate that feels that they aren’t given a voice.

    The breaking the link between constituency and MP under PR is a canard as, for example, my local MP has no link with my constituency being parachuted in from Cambridge CC. See also one Alexander de Pfeffel Johnson and sundry other MPs currently sitting in the house.

    binners
    Full Member

    Please tell me that it’s not made with cow’s milk

    It is, but it’s organic, free-range, fair trade and locally sourced

    We’re not animals

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    I’d be happy to have PR as it will prevent extremist left or right wing parties running the executive.

    That is an interesting comment as one of the most claimed benefit of FPTP is that it denies a foothold to small extremist parties.

    A good example of this is UKIP which despite its past widespread support (it once had the largest share of the vote of any party in a national local election) I believe has only once ever managed to win a parliamentary seat.

    Under proportional representation UKIP would have very likely won many dozens of Westminster seats, and quite possibly would have ended up coalition partners with the Tories, if not kingmakers.

    Very recently in Denmark under their PR system the far-right became kingmakers. Even more recently under the Italian system the far-right did even better.

    I very strongly support PR btw, but apparently not for the same reasons as some.

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    I’ve learned a life lesson over the last year or four, ‘don’t ever say that no PM could be worse than the previous one’.

    bigrich
    Full Member

    wait until she cans free childcare and shuts schools to make them online only

    MoreCashThanDash
    Full Member

    No one watch QT last night?

    I bloody hate it when I have to agree with Piers Morgan.

    willard
    Full Member

    @ernielynch Sweden, not Denmark. And the racists are busy trying to avoid responsibility for working in our parliament right now.

    Actually, I guess KD (Christian Democrats) are more of the kingmakers. They are the way smaller party but are religious headbangers and not out and out racists.

    thestabiliser
    Free Member

    Stupidly, I did. Thought zahawi was going to pop on a few occasions, obviously struggling with defending this shower. Didn’t know when to shut up either.

    kelvin
    Full Member

    https://www.instagram.com/p/CjVhvdxtmuX/

    Years&Years

    EDIT: I’ve been reliably informed that Truss wore the dress before Years&Years was broadcast. Still, it’s a look.

    trailmonkey
    Full Member

    what really is the difference between “Growth” and “Levelling up” at the end of the day?

    I think there’s a big difference and it’s key to Tory thinking.

    Levelling up has proved incompatible with their ideology as it works on the redistribution of wealth from top to bottom. They’ve been a great pains to point out that there has been too much focus on ‘distribution of the pie’ as they call it. Rather, they want to assuage the anguish of the ‘left behind’ only if it means that the rich can get richer while the lives of the less well off are improved -‘growing a bigger pie’.
    We know of course that this is nonsense and unless there is real redistribution of wealth, the left behind will fall even further.

    raleighimpact
    Full Member

    Without going through to some dodgy think tank websites, is there an actual list of what things they want to get rid of, not STW nightmares, but what the guardian is basing its article on?

    After the conference, I doubt Liz Truss can actually get anything radical through parliament now. They can only trash stuff that a minister can sign off.

    raleighimpact
    Full Member

    Sorry, the link didn’t work.
    I’m referring to the guardian article about lash and burn ideas that the IEA and tax payers alliance want.

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    willard Full Member

    @ernielynch
    Sweden, not Denmark

    Yes Sweden – thanks for the correction.

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    I’m referring to the guardian article about lash and burn ideas that the IEA and tax payers alliance want.

    This?

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/06/revealed-rightwing-slash-and-burn-ideas-that-could-be-blueprint-for-truss

    BillMC
    Full Member

    ‘Lash and burn’….Cynthia Payne?

    stevextc
    Free Member

    ernielynch

    So who inhabits these “Red Wall” seats which you appear to attach a great deal of importance to and see as some sort of typical Tory voter?

    Affluent middle-class professionals?

    That really depends how each and every one of those words is defined… especially in this context for the dilemma Labour face in being relevant to their traditional voters.

    At a very simple level, you can see this linguistically by comparing Mick Lynch with Keir Starmer the former using “working class” and the latter “the workers” and “working people”.

    Fundamentally, the post WWII red wall working class I was born and brought up into doesn’t really exist because low paid workers have abandoned their self reliance and pride in their self reliance opting for aspirational middle-class lifestyles (that they quite probably can’t afford in full due if done en-masse and as a lifestyle).

    Partly the world has changed but only in part and these have worked together destroying the working class identity.

    Many things that were shameful to a working class family in my youth are everyday things for people today claiming to be working class.

    A quick example … and since I mentioned Mick Lynch I’ll use transport for that example and how it’s impacted what was the working class.

    Postwar working class had a philosophy of equality of the working class that has vanished…. your time and comfort was the same as everyone else’s time and comfort but this has been eroded by working class people using middle-upper class services.

    Take taxi’s… anyone taking a taxi on a regular basis (e.g. more than a couple of times a year) is demonstrating their time is worth more than the taxi driver’s… the taxi driver pays for fuel, wear and tear tax and NI and pays a cut to some controller etc. who also pay tax and NI and costs. On a simple level if you can afford a taxi on a regular basis then the taxi driver must be paid a LOT less than you value your time/comfort. So if you are “working class” what does that make a taxi driver?

    Because of this shift public transport services have been cut and to all intents and purposes wrecked so whether the “working class” can afford it or not they don’t have a choice.

    A recent example was I went to the walk in centre… who due to potential seriousness of my injuries said I had to go to A&E. The nurse (working class?) said she’d call me a taxi… I refused and she had to go get another nurse to witness my refusal. I asked about a bus .. she just looked at me.
    It’s 5 1/2 miles so perfectly walkable although there is one bus service from the town centre that goes hourly so it’s as quick to walk.

    So last week I was at the fracture clinic at the hospital (having walked as nowhere safe to lock a bike)
    They want me to go to the other hospital to see a physio… NO CONNECTING BUS SERVICE at all and another (further) 7.5 miles between hospitals.

    In what world does it make sense to have 2 sister NHS hospitals not connected via public transport?
    How are working class patients even expected to get between them?

    dmorts
    Full Member

    This came my way via Facebook

    Thoughts?

    thestabiliser
    Free Member

    In taxis?

    A significant number of working class people use taxis as a) it eliminates the fixed costs of owning a car and b) busses are shite

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    In what world does it make sense to have 2 sister NHS hospitals not connected via public transport?
    How are working class patients even expected to get between them?

    I have no idea but I reckon that you need to move to London – I have never known public transport to be better in London than it currently is.

    Which is why I am assuming that you don’t live in London.

    fasthaggis
    Full Member

    Thoughts?
    George is more attractive.

    intheborders
    Free Member

    Take taxi’s…

    Taxi’s are public transport.

    gobuchul
    Free Member

    Take taxi’s… anyone taking a taxi on a regular basis (e.g. more than a couple of times a year) is demonstrating their time is worth more than the taxi driver’s… the taxi driver pays for fuel, wear and tear tax and NI and pays a cut to some controller etc. who also pay tax and NI and costs. On a simple level if you can afford a taxi on a regular basis then the taxi driver must be paid a LOT less than you value your time/comfort. So if you are “working class” what does that make a taxi driver?

    In “working class” areas, it is very common to have a free telephone to ring the local taxi company to pick you up, as it’s not possible to get home with your weekly shop without a car.

    I saw this in the NE and up around Glasgow. This wasn’t a thing at the supermarkets near Tunbridge Wells.

    trailmonkey
    Full Member

    Thoughts?

    Good luck getting that through to @sendembackdave1959

    TheBrick
    Free Member

    Take taxi’s… anyone taking a taxi on a regular basis (e.g. more than a couple of times a year) is demonstrating their time is worth more than the taxi driver’s

    No they are demonstrating they need to hire a service, skill, equipment they do not have access to.

    People regularly have to pay for someone who earns more then them or the same. This someone may have expertise, experience and or equipment that they don’t. People don’t just buy things of people who are poorer than themselves. It may be how your world works but not for most.

    molgrips
    Full Member

    I see ‘working class*’ people take taxis all the time, usually at Asda. If you can’t afford a car but still need a weekly shop, and you’re not right on the bus route then it makes sense. Big shop once a week that you can’t carry, £10 for a taxi is a lot cheaper than your own car. And it’s also comparable to all the bus fares you’d need to go several times a week if you were only getting one bag’s worth at a time cos it’s all you can carry the 3/4 mile to the bus stop.

    Don’t judge until you know – it’s what Tories do.

    * obviously you can’t tell by looking at people if they are working class or not. I really mean people who don’t appear well off.

    MrOvershoot
    Full Member

    Some good stuff in this one 🙂

    ernielynch
    Free Member

    Thoughts?

    Whilst I wouldn’t underestimate the seriousness of the situation I reckon Monbiot ignores a couple of important points in his attempt to paint a dark picture.

    Firstly he claims that the postwar consensus was driven by a fear of a return to fascism which is why there was a recognition of the importance of “people’s needs”.

    I strongly disagree with that for too many reasons to mention. But among the reasons relevent to the debate is that universal suffrage required capitalism to make huge compromises, especially if it was to stem the tide of socialism, in the form of mixed economies and universal welfare states.

    Secondly whilst he focuses on Truss and what it means for the advance of neo-liberalism Monbiot ignores two important facts. Firstly he ignores the fact that the two previous Tory prime ministers, especially the last one, had moved the Tory party away from extreme neo-liberalism. And the reason they did so is very important – it wasn’t working. Not if the aim was to hang onto power.

    Secondly Monbiot ignores the fact that within a month of Truss’s premiership and her laying out her extreme neo-liberal plan it caused hugely negative reactions from both the markets, ironically, and from it would appear the electorate – all recent opinion polls put Labour on around a staggering fifty percent of the vote, which I can assure you has nothing to do with the charisma of its leader.

    Neo-liberalism has hit a brick wall.

    I wouldn’t want to underestimate the seriousness of the situation though, so if you are feeling that you might be happier than you deserve to be Monbiot makes some interesting and very valid points which deserve attention imo

    jam-bo
    Full Member

    Some good stuff in this one 🙂

    quote of the thread…

    Truss’s brain is like a dazzlingly high-tech stealth weapon: impossible to detect, but still capable of inflicting enormous damage

    cookeaa
    Full Member

    anyone taking a taxi on a regular basis (e.g. more than a couple of times a year) is demonstrating their time is worth more than the taxi driver’s

    Are they? is it? Do they?

    My MIL regularly takes Taxis mainly because of having a long term respiratory condition that means marching to the local Bus stop isn’t really an option, she’s a pensioner and never learnt to drive, very much working a class person with a mobility need…

    TBH it’s a big part of her maintaining her independence, she spends a proportion of her Pension income on Taxis so she can get herself to the shops, appointments or to see her friends and not feel like she has to rely on lifts or stagger to the nearest bus stop to take 3 busses to travel a couple of miles…

    She certainly doesn’t have some sort of hierarchical idea about the value of her time Vs a Taxi drivers. If she has to spend an hour+ pissing about on busses it has a very real impact on her health…

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