Liz! Truss!

She’s worse at PMQs than I expected. This should be her victory performance.

I honestly think many of that group don’t really understand how things work. Change my mind..?

I honestly think that many people don’t really understand how things work regardless of any “group” they may belong to.

Rather, I think that many people of “that group” don’t really want to understand how things work. We’re back to head vs heart again.

Nice personal attack

Bless.

Sure they did. This is how the conversation went time and time and time again:

You know this Cougar? Are you related to TJ too?

Or just lazy stereotyping?

Pious, puritanical hectoring gets you nowhere.

Exactly. It might make you feel better but it really makes the situation worse. It entrenches views, and that’s the last thing we need. If you piss people off they’ll dislike you, and that will make voting the same way as you much harder to swallow.

MrsIHN is an actuary, she’s literally just come off a call about mortality and longevity assumptions, with a particular focus on the population at a lower socio-economic level that are the typical holders of the life assurance policies in question. They need to do this because they need to, at the most basic level, make sure they have enough money to pay the claims

The point of the call was to discuss how many people are dying, is it more than usual (this is called ‘excess deaths’), and if so, will that trend continue. The answers are a) a lot and b) yes and c) yes. The reason is no longer Covid. The reason is, pretty much, that the NHS is under appalling pressure; appointments are delayed or unavailable, diagnoses and treatments are delayed, ambulances are arriving too late. And an upcoming winter where people at that socio-economic will be choosing between heating and eating will make the situation even worse.

TL:DR – It’s a cold-hard fact that poor people are dying because the NHS is f___ed.

(Or would you say anyone “rich” that is voting for labour has “a certain amount of cognitive dissonance”)

That’s enlightened self interest. If the less well-off are happy they’re unlikely to want to rob/kill the rich. (I generalise grossly for effect).

Is that cleverly being an arse in the background on the front bench. What a child.

You know this Cougar? Are you related to TJ too?

In TJ’s specific example, I don’t as well you know.

Or just lazy stereotyping?

No, repeated personal experience, I’ve had this conversation many times with different people. Or to put that in Erniespeak, “do you know my personal experiences?”

It entrenches views,

I hate to break it to you Mols, but they’re already entrenched. The horse hasn’t just bolted, it owns a well-stocked hardware shop. It’ll take more than “nice horsey” to get them onside.

“now, I’m all for the beavers”

Corrupt ooft

TJ and Cougar are AI bots – it’s part of Mark’s website upgrade master-plan to drive forum hits.

No human could keep up with their posting rates! 🤣🤣🤣

Or to put that in Erniespeak, “do you know my personal experiences?”

No I don’t know your personal experience, nor do I know TJ’s relative’s personal experience. Nor why they apparently vote Tory.

But what I do know for sure is that not everyone who votes Tory is a raving racist and callous and selfish and uncaring. Some are indeed very kind and caring, despite their inability to come to the correct political conclusion.

I judge people as individuals, I leave bigotry to others.

I hate to break it to you Mols, but they’re already entrenched.

I don’t personally believe that. I think most intelligent people’s views are flexible.

But what I do know for sure is that not everyone who votes Tory is a raving racist and callous and selfish and uncaring.

Absolutely spot on. Which is why the disconnect between their own hopes and intentions and what their vote has actually enabled needs to be made plain to them. In a friendly rather than confrontational way, of course. That’s what many of us do in private with friends and family. Posting on a forum isn’t quite the same. It can be overly confrontational. Some posters fuel that more than others.

TL:DR – It’s a cold-hard fact that poor people are dying because the NHS is f___ed.

I read a heart-breaking post on Twitter (before seperating myself from that cesspit of toxicity) that basically said that we’re now past any natural “stretch” in the health system, where people can just work a bit harder or longer and make up shortfall – people at all levels are now daily working beyond safe capacity, so mistakes will be made and lives will be lost.

But what I do know for sure is that not everyone who votes Tory is a raving racist and callous and selfish and uncaring. Some are indeed very kind and caring, despite their inability to come to the correct political conclusion.

I totally agree – we’re pretty sure the in-laws (and possibly much of my own family) vote blue, and they’re universally lovely people. Interestingly, politics is never discussed.

'kin hell, Mystic Meg has a better hit rate with her predictions. pic.twitter.com/RXmLrsZ6j4

— Skew Spew Barmy Hairdo Curmudgeon Bigot and Smug (@SkewSmug) September 7, 2022

Surely if somebody doesn’t believe that voting Tory will result in longer waits for an ambulance they can’t be accused of voting for it. It may be a direct consequence of the way they voted, but if they didn’t believe that at the time then they didn’t deliberately vote for longer waits.

I have a number of friends and family who vote that way. Heck I’ve even given them my vote on occasions when I thought it was the best option. Almost without exception they genuinely think that the policies of the party they vote for are the best for the country and not just best for them.

I hate to break it to you Mols, but they’re already entrenched. The horse hasn’t just bolted, it owns a well-stocked hardware shop. It’ll take more than “nice horsey” to get them onside.

Just because you can’t think of how to fix it, doesn’t mean it’s not fixable. Giving up and just laying into people is guaranteed not to work, so why not try something that might?

@IHN I hope you are tweeting things like that.

But what I do know for sure is that not everyone who votes Tory is a raving racist and callous and selfish and uncaring. Some are indeed very kind and caring, despite their inability to come to the correct political conclusion.

I agree.

The ones who are racist or selfish though, how would you suppose they’re more likely to vote?

TJ and Cougar are AI bots – it’s part of Mark’s website upgrade master-plan to drive forum hits.

No human could keep up with their posting rates!

TJ is having a break from cycling, holed up in a hotel room with nothing but his phone. God help us 😉

The ones who are racist or selfish though, how would you suppose they’re more likely to vote?

More likely, perhaps, but that doesn’t mean that some rascist/selfish/bigoted in other ways people don’t vote Labour

Surely if somebody doesn’t believe that voting Tory will result in longer waits for an ambulance they can’t be accused of voting for it.

In isolation, I agree. But if they’ve had it explained to them, then they reject that new information because it doesn’t fit with their established beliefs and vote for it anyway then… well.

More likely, perhaps, but that doesn’t mean that some rascist/selfish/bigoted in other ways people don’t vote Labour

Has anyone suggested that they didn’t?

There’s more straw men on this thread than the Wray Scarecrow Festival.

@IHN I hope you are tweeting things like that.

I’m not, cos I’m not on Twitter. Feel free to if you want to though.

I have a number of friends and family who vote that way. Heck I’ve even given them my vote on occasions when I thought it was the best option. Almost without exception they genuinely think that the policies of the party they vote for are the best for the country and not just best for them.

This.

But if they’ve had it explained to them, then they reject that new information because it doesn’t fit with their established beliefs

One of my old mates is a paranoid stoner. Every time I see him he ‘explains to me’ why lizards etc… I listen to him because I like and respect him and find his discourse interesting and engaging. But I still reject the new information.

If people are rejecting ‘the new information’ that you are EXPLAINING TO THEM, perhaps you’re not being nice or charming enough. Assuming your information is 100% true.

Listening to BBC World at One coverage of PMQs… they’re really bigging up Truss’ first appearance. Quite magical really. I’d suggest listening to it unedited yourself, rather than their clipping and comments.

The ones who are racist or selfish though, how would you suppose they’re more likely to vote?

Just asking the question betrays bigotry, whatever the answer the only acceptable response is to judge people as individuals.

There is currently an avalanche of knife crime in Croydon, it is almost invariably black on black, I have even had the misfortune of witnessing it myself.

Now I’m not saying that white people never commit violent crime but, you know, a lot of black people do.

Is that ^^ comment acceptable? Do you judge an individual based on the behaviour of others, especially if that behaviour is prevalent?

I don’t come to a conclusion of someone’s character based on the character of others. So your question is pointless.

Listening to BBC World at One coverage of PMQs… they’re really bigging up Truss’ first appearance.

Sounds like typical BBC to me, with their right-wing bias!

Actually I was having first lunch. Now having second lunch.

In my relative’s case she certainly did know becuase i had shown her direct quotes from rees mogg calling for an end to the NHS prior to the election.

She still voted tory and for rees mogg. She just refuses to listen to anything than is not in the daily mail

In my relative’s case she certainly did know becuase i had shown her direct quotes from rees mogg…….

You sound like fun at family gatherings!

You sound like fun at family gatherings!

I think he’s telling porkies. Nobody’s that weird 🤣

i had shown her direct quotes from rees mogg calling for an end to the NHS prior to the election.

She still voted tory and for rees mogg.

She probably wouldn’t have done if you’d not spoken at her.

You don’t believe it?……”Here comes Jeremy with his quotes from Rees-Mogg“

She probably wouldn’t have done if you’d not spoken at her.

Actually, I take that back. Someone like JRM is always going to attract votes from some people. He’s quite the anachronism. I suppose he appears to some to represent a ‘high society’ old school upper class of which they aspire to. He could eat babies for breakfast but he gets a vote because he uses received pronunciation.

Just asking the question betrays bigotry

Nonsense.

People are going to vote – if they can be arsed at all – for the party that they believe (rightly or wrongly) reflects their own views. To suggest that isn’t ‘bigotry,’ it’s common sense. Do you suppose that many people who voted Remain in the referendum were avid UKIP supporters or EDL members? There may have been some of course, but surely a statistically insignificant number.

There’s 67 million people in the UK. Get back to us when you’ve asked them all individually and we’ll compare notes.

There’s 67 million people in the UK. Get back to us when you’ve asked them all individually and we’ll compare notes.

Good point – it seems like an enormous task.

Probably best to rely on lazy stereotyping and prejudice then.

People are going to vote – if they can be arsed at all – for the party that they believe (rightly or wrongly) is the nearest to reflecting their own views.

It’s a small but important distinction. Few people have the choice of voting for a party with whom they agree on everything, or, indeed, much. Most people, I think make a least-worst-choice decision, and in the last election a lot of people held their noses and picked one of two, frankly terrible, options.

There is currently an avalanche of knife crime in Croydon, it is almost invariably black on black, I have even had the misfortune of witnessing it myself.

Now I’m not saying that white people never commit violent crime but, you know, a lot of black people do.

Is that ^^ comment acceptable? Do you judge an individual based on the behaviour of others, especially if that behaviour is prevalent?

No that comment isn’t acceptable.
No I do not – otherwise I’d despise everyone that looks like Tory.

Most people, I think make a least-worst-choice decision

Nail on head.