Life, Faith, Religion and a path to finding God?

I already made the point that you dont need permission from anyone to be a better person. I’ll add to that by saying you dont need organised religion in order to attain that, either. However, as soon as anyone on here starts to talk about ‘faith’, it becomes a free for all and an excuse to belittle and insult people. I have never attempted to force my beliefs on anybody else, nor have I ever criticised anyone whose belefs differ from my own. (edit) I’m only too aware, as are most people, that the Catholic church has a lot to answer for regarding paedophilia, but lets be clear, these acts were never committed in the name of religion, the perpetrators simply hid behind their positions of power, and the church shamefully swept things under the carpet and did nothing.

Chapeau to the Op for an honest question into faith and its attendant problems.

I think the issues raised are massive and an open mind and thoughtful approach is warranted. I’ve got an awful lot from reading Kirkegaard, Nietzsche and a few others in the ‘big hitters’ camp, as well as C.S. Lewis from the Christian apologists.

I don’t think the ‘imaginary friend’ angle is particularly helpful as it is neither particularly perceptive or a true reflection of theology nor is the ‘atheists are moral too’ oft quoted line. Neither are robust arguments and since our perception is such a flawed medium it is difficult to establish any fundamental truths about the world outside of our own heads.

Religion and Spirituality are not necessarily the same thing nor are they exclusive, explore them both with humility and an open mind a decide for yourself….

Here endeth the lesson, go in pieces…

I don’t think the ‘imaginary friend’ angle is particularly helpful as it is neither particularly perceptive or a true reflection of theology

I think you will find it is.

nor is the ‘atheists are moral too’ oft quoted line

What do you mean by this?

Neither are robust arguments and since our perception is such a flawed medium it is difficult to establish any fundamental truths about the world outside of our own heads.

This is rubbish. A starving child has a perception of reality based on its empty stomach and the pain it feels. By saying that perception is flawed to in some way draw a parralel and legitimise faith is a bit poor really.

However, as soon as anyone on here starts to talk about ‘faith’, it becomes a free for all and an excuse to belittle and insult people

As before caller, who is belittling or insulting people? As far as I can see you are having a good go at doing so to surfer and me, I don’t think either he nor I are doing so to the OP. simply pointing out the obvious flaws in his argument.

Actually I’ve just read this tosh

these acts were never committed in the name of religion

and now I am going to do some belittling. It would impress me slightly more if the religion actually took responsibility for itself. As the saying goes there are no bad crews, just bad captains. So who recruited these people? Who put them in a psoition of authority? Who failed in their duty of care to both the clergy and to the congregation? Who failed to take any action to stop them when their crimes were known? Who now seeks to hide behind the falability of individuals rather than accept collective responsibility ??

I’m am atheist, but more of an Anglican style one, tea and biscuits rather than burning religious tomes.

Life is like climbing Everest sometimes; all you can do is hang on and breathe. Every now and then you get to see what makes it ‘worthwhile’ as if we need something to make it so.

It’s a glorious, messy, frustrating, disappointing, disasterous farce most of the time, but I can’t see that having it explained by any form of religion, or using any form of ‘faith’ whatever that may be is going to make it any different.

Any even vaguely intellectual approach to religion and spirituality and faith would reveal the way religion has developed as a purely social construct; tribal societal rules to make my tribe better than yours.

I think if you go looking hard enough, you will find that there actually isn’t anything there.

I am afraid that I am not having some navel gazing moderate as a best man and the invitation is revoked. Call me when you pulled yourself together.

Here endeth the lesson, go in pieces…

And piece on you too 😆

But yes spirituality and religion are two different things
– the former should be about faith whilst the latter tends to be about control and thus power and power corrupts…

mitch and other rational atheists, and you religious types that don’t want to force it upon anyone else…
Come and join me in my humanist utopia.

It’s gonna be grand I tell thee.

Come and join me in my humanist utopia.

[Prances through the orchard wearing finger-bells] Wait for meeeee

Religion – it’s all a big comfort blanket. To me that’s obvious.
Death? – you’re not going to be eaten by worms and cease to exist
Suffering? – Pray, there’s someone listening
Stressed? – you don’t need to talk to those little friends of yours with their little helpful words: There’s something much more powerful overlooking us all.
Directionless? – follow these rules.
Lacking understanding? – This stuff was all created
etc. etc. etc.

I was at a funeral last week of a bloke my own age who died of cancer. The vicar says “No-one can explain why he died”… and in the next breath “God knows how many hairs are on each of your heads”. If that is not obviously comfort by fantasy, I don’t know what is.

If that’s what you wanna do Tominalis, and it’s part of who you are, so be it…

Personally there’s no place for hippy ship in my life.

humanism +1

b’mitch seems like he’d make a good a humanist too… you can be my plus one to TSY’s party 😀

i suspect there’s quite a lot of humanists on here that dont even realise it 😀

jsut one question TSY…. will there be jelly?

The imaginary friend tack is flawed in that perception of reality is a relative experience. If you rely solely on physical input to derive a image of the real then that is subject to all of the errors and tricks the mind and senses are capable of. It could be argued that a perception of god is a trick but by the same token perception of love is also a trick or even of touch, taste and ultimately logical process is merely the same trick – i.e. physical/ electro-magnetic reactions causing a false image in consciousness.

The ‘atheists are moral’ point I was making is that of course atheists can be ‘moral’ but in a hard-materialist structure those morals are utterly relative and, ultimately meaningless. You can have as many morals as you like but they are neither good nor evil, in fact they cease to be morals, they are just fabricated rules to make life more palatable, a comfort blanket like a god or ultimate reason. They may make a society work but only a specific form of society that has been deemed good for whatever reason that group has come up with.

The starving child analogy is a good one. Yes the child perceives the pain but in reductionist terms that pain is merely a series of nervous impulses, if we take this further, the child is a collection of fundamental particles reacting to one another it could be argued that the pain the child feels is the inevitable consequence of the universe existing at all and as to whether it carries any moral weight is neither here nor there – it simply is.

If we assume that there is no ‘other state’ of existence, the spiritual or the transcendent then we are left with a physical only world. If that is the case then morality, goodness or worth are all ultimately fabricated for our own satisfaction. If the starving child dies then nothing has changed, the world is ultimately the same, nothing has left, merely changed state.

Faith could be the perception of something else, outside of the material, or it could be a trick but both situations require us to address the nature of reality – or ignore the issue.

Personally there’s no place for hippy ship in my life.

I shall place flowers in your hair and embellish your limbs with images of the sun in henna.

Ting ting ting ting…

you know that one grand you were going to spend in evans torm…. can i suggest you spend it on soap, a haircut and a suit so you can get a job you dirty hippy scum!!!!!

(i miss my dreadlocks… calling other people hippies felt better when i had dreads)

“these acts were never committed in the name of religion, the perpetrators simply hid behind their positions of power, and the church shamefully swept things under the carpet and did nothing.”
Sorry, but I dont feel belittled. What I stated is in my mind, the truth. The religion is not going to take responsibility, no matter how much you or I feel it should. The acts committed had sod all to do with religion, the church and the position that these people were in simply allowed them to cover up what they were doing. And please, dont play the victim simply because I took objection to the manner in which you were trying to put your points across. Fair enough, you make it clear that you dont believe in God, etc, and that’s fine and dandy, I really have no problem with that. What I do object to is the almost immediate reference to paedophilia, and the repeated use of the phrase ‘imaginary friend’ – which, and forgive me if I’m being overly sensitive, might just be seen as condescending?

b’mitch seems like a humanist too

Definitely.

i suspect there’s quite a lot of humanists on here that dont even realise it

Absolutely.

Didn’t even realise I was until it was pointed out to me. Citing SlaughterHouse5 as a massive influence might have been a clue though.

will there be jelly?

Yes, and not that rubbish stuff that you Mum put fruit in when you were a kid. It will be pure unadulterated jelly.

soap to work scheme? Might be hard to pull off.

I could however do with a haircut. A chap at work called me a hippy. I punched him. He doesn’t think I am a hippy any more. 🙂

If we assume that there is no ‘other state’ of existence, the spiritual or the transcendent then we are left with a physical only world. If that is the case then morality, goodness or worth are all ultimately fabricated for our own satisfaction

Precisely. And therefore the comfort blanket of “belief” is needed.
Morality, goodness and worth are all part of the human conscience. I have faith in my own mind.

The acts committed had sod all to do with religion, the church and the position that these people were in simply allowed them to cover up what they were doing.

I’m sorry but that is a cop out and a complete abdication of responsibility.

whilst you were praying and seeking spiritual enlightenment OP I think Monkeeknutz stole your stash and necked it.

nothing has left

Life has….this does not require soul

It seems a strange argument to level at religious institution that they covered up child abuse. Either Catholicism is an evil, power grubbing, uber-club; in which case covering up this sort of thing is par for the course or it is just a load of people in which case I imagine they did what most criminals do and try to hide their crimes. Child abuse is no more prevalent in the Catholic church than in wider society, lots of people are horrid, religious or not.

We could say ‘aren’t people awful the way they try to cover up their atrocious activity’.

sorry TSY, whilst searching for a handy internet link to provide a concise description of humanism for the ones who aren’t aware… i realised it specifies that its based in atheism and agnosticism, so i edited it.

funnily enough i realised the world of humanism through my exploration of the joseph cambell stuff me and torm were on about earlier in this thread 🙂

mum didnt put fruit in jelly when i was young 🙁 twas all razor blades and fish bones back in them days!

Life… that’s a weird one… what makes that go then?

The point I was making was that physically nothing has changed, there are no more or less atoms, molecules, particles etc than there were before so what’s changed? I agree life has ended but reality has only altered state not disappeared. One inter-reaction between physical entities has become another one, is this good, bad or indifferent?

DezB – faith in your own mind is no more or less irrational than faith in god then. If belief is necessary than fine and dandy but why is one thing better than another? Can we all have faith in your mind or is it every man for himself? And if my mind suggests something awful is moral can I go and do it with your blessing?

“I’m sorry but that is a cop out and a complete abdication of responsibility.”
For whom? The individuals who commited the acts, and the people who assisted in covering up those acts, should all be tried and brought to justice. Where did I say otherwise?

Monkeynutz your contribution is nothing but obfuscation attemting to intelectualise the subject of faith.

Attempting to elevate your morals over that of an atheist is stagering considering adherents to the Catholic faith apparently get theirs from a reading of the first testament. The same text that advocates genocide, infanticide and group rape.

Fortunately modern day values and morals are derived from more than this hence our ability to determine “what is is good in the good book”
If these morals allow us to avoid war, treat each other equally and with dignity (something religions was so far been unable to do )then I will accept your definition that they are “meaningless” Successfull practical application makes them desirable over faith based ones any day.

phil – I’m going to do some research on the subject tonight.
I like the fact that you can be a humanist and accept that religion is in the nature of other humans and can so accept that they need it.
You can know that their is no ‘higher being’ but that the practice of religion and the ability to defer to something else is useful for some.

Come with me children, it’s gonna be great.

erm..I’m not a Catholic, I suppose a practicing agnostic with theistic leanings, and I think the suggestion that I’m trying to elevate my morals over anyone is a little sensitive.

I think I’m trying to make the point that a hard materialist out look presents its own issues. What do you mean successful practical application? That species preservation is the dominant driving force in morality? If this is the case why not pursue hard line Utilitarianism and preserve our species with some rational weeding out of undesirable elements?

I’m curious as to how we, as a people, come to robust moral choices with out an ultimate reality and how we justify a universal reality.

As to the obfuscation in order to intellectualize a question of faith I counter that you are simply ignoring the ramifications of a materialist outlook to bolster a pretty poor philosophical stance.

Start HERE TSY.

although in addition to this “the heros journey” (dont remember it being longer than an hour long) about Joseph cambell is well worth investing a little time into, shame he died as i think he’d be a better spokesperson for humanism than dawkins who comes across as a little patronising at times and could do with stepping back emotionally from the subject when challenged.

Can you be a humanist if you don’t like lots of people?

I’ve experimented a lot and believe I’m a hedonistic stoic.

Follow me….

DezB – faith in your own mind is no more or less irrational than faith in god then. If belief is necessary than fine and dandy but why is one thing better than another? Can we all have faith in your mind or is it every man for himself?

Blimey, I guess you are mixing it up with the higher being thing. Must be confusing for you!

loved reading your post monkeenutz, very well thought out!

Can you be a humanist if you don’t like lots of people?

iDave, I barely like anyone 😆 But I do believe that there is an intrinsic good in many, even those I find intolerable.

They’re all welcome in my, errr, ‘church’ though.

Can you be a humanist if you don’t like lots of people?

I’ve experimented a lot and believe I’m a hedonistic stoic.

Follow me….

I’m in idave, with the proviso that it doesn’t harm anyone or impact negatively on other living things and I don’t have to sleep with you!

course you can iDave 😀 i hate people, the thought of other humans makes this pathetic-human-skin-meat that surrounds my inner-being crawl.

but i’m a humanist, with maybe a leaning towards awesomism

I think Monkeeknutz is spot on and has explained his thoughts learly enough.
Unfortunately the ones who could do with thinking about some of the points made tend to talk rather than listen.
Good luck to the OP though and at least the subject was discussed for a little while before the bell rang for playtime. 🙂

Sigh…. I’m not trying to convert anyone or make out that god definitely exists but point out that materialism and atheism have some issues that need addressing before we can start slinging round phrases like ‘imaginary friend’ and people with a ‘faith’ are all swivel eyed cretins.

And I’ve definitely not mixed you up with a higher being. 😀

I was always a questioning agnostic. Married a Christian (in a church) and was quite happy to embrace the church, but perhaps not in the same way she did due to her being brought up in a Christian household, but I was willing to be shown that there was something in it.

One month after our wedding she was diagnosed with breast cancer, two years later she died.

After a great deal of soul searching with her family (mine aren’t religious), clinical depression, attempted suicide and finally the removal of my head from up my arse I am now a fully paid up Atheist.

If there is a god, how can a god that is supposed to love us (his children) keep destroying our lives? I’m sure there are plenty of people out there who, when something bad happens think exactly this, personally I cannot let myself believe this. If I do, it eats me up inside and all I do is hate something that, to be honest, isn’t worth my time and energy hating. So, as a result, I am spiritually devoid.

It is only human to try and find a reason for something that happens that cannot be explained, In reality, shit happens. To you, to me, to small children, to innocent mothers walking in the park, sometimes there is no rhyme or reason as to why bad things happen.

And, and this is a big AND, if there is a god why would I want to align myself to something that lets all this shit happen. And please don’t insult me by giving me all that nonsense about free will and choice, it is an excuse for religious leaders to pass the buck. I often joke with friends that I want to be buried with a baseball bat, because if there is a god out there somewhere, I’m after him big style

In response to the OP’s question about MTFU, I let myself believe for too long that something or someone had it in for me and that I had done something, or my wife had done something that had let this happen. As I said before, shit happens. It isn’t a case of MTFU, you just learn to accept it. I’m pretty much at peace with the world, ok, I still have a few issues, but they are usually with tangible physical beings (I hate politicians), not your imaginary friend,

On a slightly more humorous point, I’ve been lucky enough to meet someone else who I think the world of and who thinks the world of me. But, if there is a god and heaven and all that, my wife will already be there. I’m an Atheist so I’m not going at all. My GF is a Christian, so she’s going to be up there too at some point. Being a bit big headed, neither one of them would want to spend eternity without me, so do I get a guest pass or something? And if I do, do I spend a week with each, how will it work? I bet the two of them will talk about me behind my back anyway!!

Child abuse is no more prevalent in the Catholic church than in wider society, lots of people are horrid, religious or not

Well yes but if your main job is to be a moral authority, save souls , preach about living a good sin free life and to live by a moral code goiven by your maker and you fail to do that by sexually molesting children – which is a very big fail in the scheme of things. Then your boss notices and covers it up so the institute is not harmed and then posts you elsewhere to avoid a scandal then that does reflect on the Church as a moral authority.

Life… that’s a weird one… what makes that go then?

Death