LIBYA! Jewel of Africa! what really happend and why does it not make any sense?

After having researched the conflict in libya and come to my own conclusions about the WAR.

I am quite baffled as to why the west has been so eager to believe what is being said, without it making any sense?

However rather than coming between western individuals and the GOD called TV / media or the commonly held perspective on this issue.

I have a simple suggestion and well way to judge this, yes you can put links to Al Gazeera the arab stoogies and US/UK media stoogies.

However they all have satellites and other expensive broad casting equipment which means at some point money men and banks are involved.

How about this, if the fighting, the unrest, the brutality, the sexism, the racism and ethnic cleansing which included the destruction of an entire city with upto 30,000 people being displaced and imprisoned in death camps, simply because they are dark skinned. If all of this continues and the country descends more into anarchy.

We can then say that Muammar Gaddafi did not oppress the people of Libya but in fact brought peace! to his country. Whilst the rest of Africa was ravaged by war! 42 years of tyranny or 42 years of peace and prosperity.

As is always the case time will tell!

‘Freedom’ fighter turned western world propped up dictator, due to the oil reserves though wasn’t he?

*applauds*

Well done, chap. Usual standards maintained. Rambling, random caps, no obvious thread.

Thank you.

NO CAPITALS THOUGH 😉

I think it’s the hot weather. 😳
Is there nothing on the tellybox?

As with most of these long running dictatorships (Hussein, Al Asad, Gadaffi et all) they may have ruled with an iron fist but the countries that they ruled over weren’t really countries at all, just lines on a map that don’t reflect the tribal/historical boundaries if they ever existed in the first place.

Long story short, ethnic minority dictator/government sells soul/resources/access to runways to west in exchange for a blind eye to human rights abuses, a decent load of cash, access to buy weapons with their oil wealth etc etc.

Okay, I’ve read the OP three times.

I am quite baffled

You and me both fella, you and me both.

Thread title of the year Kaesae!

Have not really got a clue what the OP is on about but having worked here before, during and after the Revolution i can tell you in no uncertain terms the folk well 99.9% are happy Ali G got flat packed, there are some issues but considering it is less than one year since Tripoli was liberated they have not done too bad.

Only thing is booze is still illegal so i wont get a proper drink until i am on the BA flight out of here Tuesday.

Not sure I can answer about Libya – but I think the “why does it not make any sense” question may be a bit more general ?? Is Libya the only thing that doesn’t make any sense ??

Is Libya the only thing that doesn’t make any sense ??

Nope. There’s the OP as well don’t forget.

I see we are all busy heeding the Mods warning in the other thread wit gay abandon….

It makes more sense if you just follow the UChoob clips I ended up with newscaster outtakes..

Al Gazeera?

Gary’s Dubai-based halal pizza joint?

wit gay abandon

Que?

zokes – Member

wit gay abandon

Que?

Don’t you understand Libyan? *shakes head*

Sorry (no really) i just dont get what is being said, I think its something to do with evil banks and essentially it’s better the devil you know….i think, but i often miss the point of what is being said here…

muslamic rayguns

Dangerous stuff that magic marine mushroom bearing grease
Halo, halousag, halousagenic
Makes you see things and ramble

Al Gazeera one of the all time great american method actors

The people of Libya have been liberated from a debt free existence and an active say in what is being done in their country!

Hooraa!

anokdale what exactly do you do in the country and what parts of it have you seen?

I work in the oil and gas industry in Risk Management but last year i jumped back in with the media and went to all the nice places, (not) been everywere here to be honest, the Nafusa Mountains are fantastic and the coastline is as you would expect for the Med. I am based in Tripoli and still enjoy the place, i know Brits who have been here 26/27 yrs so it cannot be too bad. In general the Libyans are great people and deserve better than the last 42 yrs under Ali G.

Hmm anokdale appears to have first hand experience…I wonder where this will lead us????

Al Gazeera? I thought he was a stand-up, worked the clubs in New Jersey!

Not too far, i am not biting and the games are on and i have work in the morning 🙂

Sounds interesting, mind if I ask you some questions about Libya I’m quite curious about the country at the moment.

Here’s some of what I’ve discovered so far!

Before I started to research the events as best I could online, I first went off and researched Muammar Gaddafi. However due to the distorted nature of our TV / media, which if I’m honest I stopped believing after Iraq and a million other lies.

I decided to simply focus on facts about Libya, however to truly grasp the situation in Libya I first had to come to understand the current situation and also the history of the country.

So I look at the recent history of Africa as a continent and also Libya’s history put into context of it’s location in Africa.

I would also advise anyone that values the truth and our right to choose what we believe to do the same.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&sugexp=cghsbq&cp=7&gs_id=4o&xhr=t&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&biw=1920&bih=918&q=libya+map&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x13a892d98ece010d:0xfa076041c7f9c22a,Libya&gl=uk&sa=X&ei=zX8lUNSqOqmN0AWYn4CwCg&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ8gEwAA

When you analyze the Geographical location of Libya and then factor in the constant wars, revolutions and political turmoil of the region you really do have to start asking questions about the logic behind this military action. Not only about our right to interfere in an armed conflict between two waring parties, but also to give one side a massive advantage over the other, especially when the other side is the legitimate government.

A government and regime that was to receive an award for human rights, an award that was put on hold until after the WAR! ❓

Smoking Gun: Gaddafi Was To Receive U.N. Human Rights Award

The UN have now officially reviewed and have adopted this award!

However I will be discussing the war later on with those who know much better than I do in the hope that I can learn something, for now I would like to simply focus on Gaddafi, the demon hell spawn of satan’s left testical.

A man so heinous and revolting, he is actually responsible for one of the greatest feets of irrigation in the world. He could of course have spent the $33 billion on weapons and his army. However rather than being a war monger, he chose instead to go after a dream. A dream that at the time most people said was a madman’s delusion. WTF is kaesae the nutjob speaking about and who the **** does he honestly think gives a shit?

The answer to that rambling questions is of course those who still have something shiny inside them, not the tarnished black pit that most of the capitalist world has lurking within.

So to those of you reading this I present to you,

THE GREAT MAN MADE RIVER PROJECT.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Manmade_River

Having researched this and been reasonably thorough I can infact indepentently confirm that it was in fact.

The brain child of Muammar Gaddafi, not only did he invest $33 billion and in so doing become one of the worlds truly great visionaries, he also ended up transforming baron desert into lush arable land.

Obviously I might be wrong about this. I am still researching, however Anokdale can you tell me if you have visited other African countries? and how they compare to Libya? Also what do you know about this project have you seen it?

I don’t knkow why I am doing this……

A government and regime that was to receive an award for human rights, an award that was put on hold until after the WAR!

Have you even read the report that article links to? Look at the lost of recommendations it lists. Also – find in there where it says he is getting an award? Diplomacy with carrots instead of sticks – nothing more.

The Great Manmade River was nothing more than economic sense. In one of the driest countries in the world, water is worth more than oil to most of the population. Desalination was the answer before they found the (non-renewable) water. This water is 1/10 of the cost of desalinated water. It makes financial sense. It was not some wonderful philanthropic act – it was simple good sense – for a relatively short time. You cannot ‘transform baron[sp] desert into lush arable land’ for very long with a finite water source. Why does the desert need to be transformed anyway?

Actually the cost of building 6 of the highest tech desalination plants on the coast of Libya would have still been cheaper than the folly Ali G never completed, and the source of the man made river is reported to run out in 30 yrs or so. Waste of money and another example of the lunatics way he blew Libya wealth when not even providing health care or education to an acceptable level. What a tool and Libya if not the World is a better place for him getting the good news last Oct. Remember folks this guy sponsored World Terrorism for many years and hosted our own PIRA who were as we know a major pain in the butt to the UK.

The Libyans support Europe and align themsleves with that more than the Middle East so hopefully the good relationships will grow and we can see the place coming good. Mind you there was a prison riot here last night and another of Ali Gs former Generals was shot in Benghazi coming out of the Mosque yesterday but heyo we get prison riots in the UK and folk get shot so it cannot be too bad.

…..but heyo we get prison riots in the UK and folk get shot so it cannot be too bad.

It’s interesting to hear you suggest that the level of violence in Libya is no different to that in the UK.

I have seen the project the pipes and excavations are all over the place, a scar on the terrain in all honesty and the beneficaries of the man made river were only going to be areas he supported or was supporting to ensure they followed him in time such as last year, the money spent was gigantic and the theory is most of it was embezzeled away into Swiss bank accounts and Mercedes dealerships just like most African countries Governments do with the peoples money. There are numerous unfinnished projects here, housing, schools, the new Airport etc but must stopped mid 2010 when most of us suspect the powers be realised their time was up and the money for the funds was put in the pension fund account for a rainny day.

Ernie to be honest there are places in London i would not walk through and the same applies to Tripoli, dont believe all you here in the Daily Fail and the like. The problem at the moment is in Tripoli for example there is no police force, he never trained them and his Internal Security was the police, they have gone now and the police force are not yet in a position to police in a manner you and i recognise, they will catch up as countries are training them but the local Militias are basically policing the areas they live in and they are not disciplined, trained and the like so you get problems but most are internal issues and not aimed at Ex Pats and as long as we are carefull and avoid hot spots we are fine, i wandered through the main square this AM from the hotel to the office, no problem, i would not do that at night just yet but we will get there. There are 1.5 million folk in Tripoli and i would suspect minor crime. muggings etc is no different from the UK and Libyan families are still strong on the whole so if a father says no most accept that but like anywhere you get the scallies in every society. I would rather be here working for a month at a time than Nigeria where the two years i had there were shocking.

Ernie to be honest there are places in London i would not walk through and the same applies to Tripoli, dont believe all you here in the Daily Fail and the like.

Well actually I had in mind the reports of violence in Libya by all the news providers, not just my Daily Mail, none seem to suggest that it is no worse than the UK.

And whilst I accept that there are areas in London which might be a little dodgy, unlike in Benghazi this week, the International Committee of the Red Cross has not suspended operations due to the level of violence here.

I presume that the International Committee of the Red Cross doesn’t rely on the Daily Mail for an analysis of the situation on the ground ?

The ICRC had two attacks one in Misurata as well which surprised us all as the ICRC was at the front of helping the Misuratans in last years skirmish, the ICRC boat from Benghazi was a lifsaver for hundreds last year. The ICRC believe it is because someone in their ranks as gone around handing out Christian Literature though not an excuse for violence it does not help in such sensitive times, link that with the Iranian Red Crescent team getting lifted and still are captive the motives of some NGOs and i am pointing fingers at the Iranian team team do raise suspicions especially in a Sunni society. Complex issues but for the most the IOCs and International companies are starting to come back in. I will be in a public Gym later today, i will go out to a cafe for dinner, no lunch as its Ramadan so its fruit at the desk but tonight i will sit amongst Libayans without issue in a restaurant and nobody will give a toss mate. Like most of us they want to go to work earn a decent salary and not have issues, the results from the election here indicate that as well as no Right Wing party got any seats, it is just a few loons that exist in any society that are giving the place a bad name.

Here we go again, conspiracy theory central!

No conspiracy theory if you are on the ground and your living depends on delivering the correct analysis to your clients who pay your day rate coffeeking, and i know the Director of ICRC misson here and they have reported the same facts of which their current posture reflects the same. This has been reported in open sources on numerous occasions.

it is just a few loons that exist in any society that are giving the place a bad name.

Well that’s a relief. All the news reports coming out of Libya have been suggesting that there are some very serious problems concerning lawlessness and violence. TF for STW and eventually hearing the actual truth eh ?

Wasn’t aimed at you anokdale

Too tall you are looking at this as a British citizen and your skepticism for your own government and their constant lies, incompetence and blatant thievery from the UK public is clouding your judgement.

For anyone interested here is the report, if you would only like to read parts of it then skip to the bottom and look at the recommendations, several of which say continue doing what you are doing, others from countries such as Brazil and Mexico are to be questioned in the context of their current social situation and class structures.

http://libyanfreepress.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/report_working_group_universal_periodic_review.pdf

Here is a list of my favourite recommendations

93.2. Adopt and implement a definition of torture consistent with its
obligations under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman, Degrading Treatment or Punishment (United States);

What about the Guantanamo Bay detention camp and the US treatment of it’s own citizens?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp

93.3. Adopt domestic legislation to absolutely abolish practices of torture on its territory (United States);

Aah I now see the logic of the last 2 conclusions / recommendations from the United State of America, you can torture people all you like but not in your own country or where people can see you, Gaddafi you amatuer!

This from the Sudanese people

93.6. Continue its efforts to address the adverse effects of the sanctions imposed during the 1990s (Sudan)

The Libyan people accomplished all that they had even though the west opposed them as much as possible, even to the extent of sanctions and bombing the factory’s that manufactured the materials for the great man made river project.

NATO bombs the Great Man-Made River

Having read through this report and paid particular attention to what is being said could be done, but also what has been done and what up until the NATO invasion was being done, it’s hard for me to understand how so many people rather than researching the country and forming their own judgment on the matter, will simply believe what the politicians and media claim? Judging by our current global circumstances do you really think our politicians give a **** or are worth what we pay them?

Have we not come to understand as a people that the media being controlled by the rich and the governments also being controlled by the rich, powerful and influential will always seek to benefit themselves at our expense, is exploitation not one of the principles that our so called debt ridden, choice free, democracy is founded on?

Let’s go back to the great man made river project, or as too tall refers to it the carrot, I prefer the great man made river project, however if you feel that life is about a carrot or a stick feel free to think of the project as the carrot.

At this point I would like to address tootall’s questions about why does the desert need to be transformed, how many edible plants do you know of that grow in a desert without water tootall?

Have you even looked at how much water the great man made river project has tapped into? anything from 50 years upto 1000 years worth of water. Left in peace the Libyans would have been able to find out how long it would last and what could be done with it, however we very kindly brought war to their country!

Since we that is to say the west and their Arab allies are saying that Gaddafi was a dictator and not as the truth of the matter tells us an advocate of direct democracy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Green_Book_%28Libya%29

We can then say that everything that happened in Libya was his doing and he was responsible for it!

So Gaddafi was responsible for the outlawing or sharia law and of course the practice of polygamy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygamy

Too say that the Arab world was outraged by this is a bit of an understatement, still Gaddafi said **** you! these are my people and by law from now on women are not only the equals of men they will be allowed to speak in public. This may not sound like much to us in the west, however we are discussing Africa and if you research it you will see that Gaddafi was very unpopular as a result of this.

It’s gets worse though, Gaddafi went even further than simply pissing of the Arabs with his liberal philosophies of mutual cooperation and sharing of wealth and benefits, he also majorly pissed the west off by saying **** you with a cactus and a jaggy one at that, when he denied them access to the oil and used it’s revenues to create an infrastructure in Libya.

You want to learn about the real Muammar Gaddafi the man who Nelson Mandela called the greatest freedom fighter who has ever lived. Then first we must put what he and the people of Libya created by working together into perspective.

When I come back I will be discussing the state of Libya from 1951 to 1969 when Muammar took control in a coup d’état.

However if you are interested here is some information for now, if anyone wants to get involved in researching this feel free!

When Gaddafi came to power like all other African countries Libya was poor, as in shanty towns and lack if hygiene and of course hunger. Gaddafi swore to the people of Libya that he would house every single person in Libya.

Gaddafi raised the literacy rate from 23% to well over 75% for both Men and Women in Libya.

Through the creation of a free education system and free medical attention for the Libyan people.

Why not research the man and look at him through his peoples eyes, he saw the western powers as his enemies simply because they and as their power base we are the enemies of these people.

Our way of life is not fair, it is oppressive and it is exploitative, Muammar Gaddafi refused to allow his people to be treated the way those of us in the west are treated and the way he saw the rest of Africa being treated by western powers, he could have lived a life of ease and wealth / power.

He did not take the same road that so many other Arab or African nations have taken, he did not choose to ensure the safety of his loved ones or to abuse his power. He chose time and time again to do what was right for his people.

You mentioned a carrot too tall, perhaps you should mention it to western democracies they obviously have not heard of it! Stick, Stick, Stick, Stick, Stick!

Anokdale, can you tell us a bit more about what you do and what kind of training / qualifications you have to do it?

It’s hard for me to reconcile your evaluation of the GMRP with what almost every other source is saying. The cost was $33 billion and it brought water to a large percentage of the country, also it is no secret that there was a lot of development in Libya still on going.

You yourself have said that there are unfinished projects, not surprising considering what has recently transpired. How exactly do you know when these projects were abandoned?