Legal advice please – cancelling a new car dispute

The 4 Fs – first find the ******* facts.

We need both Ling & Mick to get back into this – particularly Ling; Mick’s contributions have become increasingly boring and repetitive.

So the consensus is the OP acted unethically. And is now looking for legal loopholes to get out of the deal. And that loophole would be that this document is illegal?

I’m really struggling to see how his actions can be defended. Is there a time frame for when the OP initiated the transaction?

So the consensus is the OP acted unethically. And is now looking for legal loopholes to get out of the deal

That’s not how I see it.

I’m really struggling to see how his actions can be defended.

Have you read the other 29 pages yet? 😕

<goes to google to check> – actually I CBA, I’ll take crankboy’s word for it.

wwaswas – Member
I’m surprised by the very high level of antipathy towards Brexiteers, earlier in this thread. Some of the sentiment was unexpectedly harsh.

This is not the thread for it but: really? Why would people not feel strongly about a movement led by racists, those who see profits in disrupted markets and the self serving/publicising that appears to be stumbling towards the worst possible outcome on the flimsiest majority won with a tissue of lies?

*and breathe*

True, all true. Thanks for just quoting one line of my post btw.

I didn’t say I was happy about it. I feel very strongly about it, but its going to be difficult to avoid 51%* of the voting population in business transactions.

*I know, I know…..

How does this translate to professional services? I and I suspect many others receive instructions via email which could be construed as distance selling. If we then put days of labour into a piece of work, can the client then cancel and claim cooling off period and expect no bill?
it does happen, and of course our clients cover our fees because they are decent humans.

You do know that ling is a she?

It’s completely different for services

I’m really struggling to see how his actions can be defended

Me too

It depends – the specific terms are posted somewhere up thread, and there are exceptions, but a car off a stock list on a lease isn’t one of them.

Actually regarding lawyers providing services, last time I employed one (a few months ago) I got a form to sign and send back authorising starting work early before the end of the cooling off period. I’m assuming that was a totally legal way of avoiding this issue for them. Though it being a lawyer I’d used before and related to the work he’d done for me previously I think pretty much all the work had already been done before he even sent me the paperwork. I didn’t even pay him until after he’d supplied all work products – but then I guess not paying a lawyer’s bill isn’t a good idea even if you don’t have a trust relationship and expect to use them again.

Thanks for just quoting one line of my post btw

there’s too much verbatim quoting of posts on here – the sentiment I was replying to was the one of surprise at the anger at Brexit voters.

there’s too much verbatim quoting of posts on here

Yeah, the last thing we need is accurate reporting of what other people have said. How can you generate a decent squabble without a bit of straw man?

By attempting to wriggle around their consumer law obligations?

edit: too slow 😉

there’s too much verbatim quoting of posts on here

Yeah, the last thing we need is accurate reporting of what other people have said. How can you generate a decent squabble without a bit of straw man?

I can see what you did there.

but, someone can make a multi sentence/paragraph post and I can respond to one element of it without quoting the whole post in it’s entirety can’t I? I explained why I’d been selective and everything.

In response to the question about illegality, yes it’s a criminal offence if the trader doesn’t inform the consumer of their right to cancel in the cooling off period. This doesn’t necessarily have to be on the order form to my knowledge (e.g. If contained in t&cs elsewhere on the website if the order form itself makes reference to those t&cs and says where to find them)

but, someone can make a multi sentence/paragraph post and I can respond to one element of it without quoting the whole post in it’s entirety can’t I? I explained why I’d been selective and everything.

The straw man is the bane of forums and quoting really helps prevent that.

Woo – we finally have a definitive criminal offence on this thread! (I think we can reasonably confident ling isn’t informing people of a right she doesn’t think they have)

Any comment on the vague wording used on the form regarding cancellation charges? Would setting them out specifically be more problematic legally?

In response to the question about illegality, yes it’s a criminal offence if the trader doesn’t inform the consumer of their right to cancel in the cooling off period. This doesn’t necessarily have to be on the order form to my knowledge (e.g. If contained in t&cs elsewhere on the website if the order form itself makes reference to those t&cs and says where to find them)

New information, Blackadder? (Ta for that.)

This doesn’t necessarily have to be on the order form to my knowledge (e.g. If contained in t&cs elsewhere on the website if the order form itself makes reference to those t&cs and says where to find them)

Although, in this case. Ling has stated that the regulations don’t apply, so she wouldn’t have included them anywhere surely ?

https://www.lingscars.com/terms.htm

What about the insurance fraud for those two e-bikes which were stolen and subsequently recovered?*

* Yeah, I know there’s no mention of them actually being insured. Just makin’ mischief.

illegal is a difficult word , i suspect that a misleading term or omission may well be illegal there are some really wide ranging offences under trading standards legislation that i have never had reason to delve into.

The failure to notify of the cooling off period is not consistent with the act and in the terms of the act as i read it serves to extend the cooling off period so that the consumer can cancel much later.

The lawyer analogy is correct only in so far as you could instruct a lawyer remotely then cancel and owe nothing so long as you had instructed them and then not asked them to do any work in the 14 day cooling off period. Most people on STW seem to want their conveyancers to crack on with the job and start the ball rolling asap not sit and drink tea for 14 days.

Ling chose this business model the industry standard advise seems to be if you do so, do not make any financial commitment for your business until the contractual cooling off period has expired.

I’m now off back to my comfort zone of offensive weapons, drugs and unwanted sex.

You are damn lucky that the laws of England and Wales (and not of the People’s Republic of China) govern these conditions of use and you agree that the English courts shall have exclusive jurisdiction in any dispute.

– Ling 😆

If you have changed your mind:
If you have simply changed your mind about your order you should inform me in writing/fax/email as soon as possible. Unless you have signed finance documents and exceeded cooling-off period, I should be able to unwind order. However, there may be a charge for doing so if costs have been incurred by supplier.

Hence the “may” word on the order form.

7) My very last words to this chap, at 11.58 this morning, were: “I’ll do my very best to minimise those costs, I need to argue your case to the supplier General Manager.”,

The fact the I now know he has been lying to me means he gets invoiced in the morning

I’m very fair to deal with, often help customers as I offered to help him by getting the charge minimised.

Reads to me like the OP should have been straight up from day 1 and that the whole £500+vat thing might then have been avoided. It would certainly be interesting to hear of other folk who have cancelled and whether or not they ended up paying anything at all.

illegal is a difficult word

Nah, it’s easy. Only 3 syllables.

Sisyphean on the other hand…

In response to the question about illegality, yes it’s a criminal offence if the trader doesn’t inform the consumer of their right to cancel in the cooling off period. This doesn’t necessarily have to be on the order form to my knowledge (e.g. If contained in t&cs elsewhere on the website if the order form itself makes reference to those t&cs and says where to find them)

illegal is a difficult word , i suspect that a misleading term or omission may well be illegal there are some really wide ranging offences under trading standards legislation that i have never had reason to delve into.
The failure to notify of the cooling off period is not consistent with the act and in the terms of the act

???

Though it should say “though it may cost me money if I’ve jumped the gun and incurred non-refundable costs during the period when you’re entitled to exit the agreement without any charge”. That at least would comply with the legal requirements to inform the consumer of their rights.

Reads to me like the OP should have been straight up from day 1 and that the whole £500+vat thing might then have been avoided. It would certainly be interesting to hear of other folk who have cancelled and whether or not they ended up paying anything at all.

In what substantive way has the OP not been straight up? Simon has ordered a lease and cancelled within the cooling off period. What other substantive facts are there which make any difference to anything?

It is an intriguing web which has been woven here, and it’s certainly made for a fun thread (I have to admit I’ve had thoughts about it all being an elaborate troll), but it strikes me that ling’s upset about all the unusual things the OP is doing aren’t so very different from car drivers going “cyclists should pay road tax and have insurance” in reply to articles about drivers being stopped for overtaking too close to cyclists.

What happened to ‘honesty is the best policy’?

If you are going to drone on about legality I’ll have to start reading a different thread. Honestly, the insults were much more entertaining.

Apparently doesn’t matter any more, as long as you can be clever with the law.

Being clever with the law presumably meaning invoking your standard consumer rights?

The only person I see trying to be clever with the law is ling.

It is illegal though (if Crankboy is correct above)

Aracer- Member 
Being clever with the law presumably meaning invoking your standard consumer rights?
The only person I see trying to be clever with the law is ling.

I can’t understand how people don’t see these basic facts.

What happened to ‘honesty is the best policy’?

This. Just do what you say you’re going to do, and don’t promise to do stuff you’re not sure you can do. Less frustration for all.

Given that there should be a 14 day cooling off period, from ling’s POV surely this is like someone going into a shop, trying on the clothes, and then after half an hour deciding not to buy anything. It may be a pain, but it is par for the course if you are providing this sort of service. As aracer says, if she is incurring costs before the cooling off period ends, that is her lookout, not the OP’s.

Like send somebody an invoice for £500 + VAT? 😆

Some shops now charge you to try on stuff you don’t buy.

A hint in case you weren’t aware – crankboy is one of the few people on this thread who knows what he’s talking about (and the advice he’s giving is entirely consistent with that of the other person who knows what he’s talking about).

Don’t forget to disconnect the finance arrangement from the cancellation bit.
Cancelling finance does have the cooling off period and cancels the order.

Her T&C’s and unstated fee are separate to the above. Then roll in all the layers of who did what / said what / signed what and hey ho, page 32 ahoy…

aracer is Mick’s BIL Simon and I claim my £500+vat