Legal advice please – cancelling a new car dispute

This is Ling. Hello everyone.

First to the mods. I’m just going to lay out some facts, not rant or advertise. Hope that’s OK.

Second, thanks to everyone who has supported me. Anyone having a car from me knows I don’t scam.

I won’t reveal the chap’s true identity, at this stage.

It’s the **ordering** of a £30,000 car that is the key issue (not the financing which is protected by consumer credit act, FSA, etc). Telling the dealer to call it in, have it consigned, specify the extras, the build, the colour, the PDI, the transport, the logistics. Etc. Apart from the lost sales opportunity of the car for the supplier. He ordered it in writing, by signing the order form where warnings were written in LINGO when I raised it, and on the form itself.

—-

Right, let me just clarify some points he made that are incorrect (or lies), apart from the fact that he has been lying to me for a few days, and his true intentions are now clear: “My plan is to state i’m not happy with the T’s & C’s with the finance and that may be my get out clause?”

1) This chappy denies to me (tonight) that he posted the post. He says he’s not the OP, when I have called him out, personally. Another lie, I think. So, your poor victim claims he is not the victim. Weird.

2) He ordered a £30k+ car, loaded with extras, a nearly top of range Skoda Superb. He signed an order that said: “THIS FORM COMMITS YOU TO THE VEHICLE, IT WILL BE ORDERED! IF YOU SUBSEQUENTLY CANCEL THE CAR, “AGENCY” CHARGES MAY APPLY. IF YOU ARE NOT SURE YOU WANT THE CAR, PLEASE DON’T SIGN AND RETURN THIS FORM.” … in big caps.

3) When I sent the order form, I stated on the message: on LINGO, my transcribed message system, on the 11th Oct “The signed order means I will commit to the car for you. Some funders may have an “agency charge” which they pass on to me if you cancel, that means I will have to pay a large amount if you cancel after signing the order, maybe more than £500!”

4) This is because I order cars without a deposit, as I work on trust. At a dealer, you would usually be asked to pay a deposit, which they would keep. So I often get clawback when cars are cancelled, as cars are big things. It’s a £30,000 car! I sign NDAs with suppliers, which include clauses like that, as I have approx 200 new cars on order at any one time, so that (at, say £20k average each) is £4 million of cars. Dealers trust they will not be out of pocket ordering cars for me, that get cancelled. Especially Christmas Trees like this one.

5) I expleined patiently to him: “It’s not aggressive. I just can’t take orders on £30,000+ cars, and then take the hit when cancelled. It is nothing to do with distance selling rules, the Agency Charge falls outside of that legislation. I’ve recovered this in court before and never lost a Small Claims Court case regarding this charge. My order form and LINGO wording has been checked by Gateshead Trading Standards, has been the same for 10-years, and was judged to be fair and correct.”

6) He then claimed I was not transparent… I replied: “It’s not a flaw in transparency. Finance paperwork bears no relevance. Finance *IS* covered by the distance selling act. You can cancel the finance, no problem, freely. Finance is paying for the car.”

I explained… “It’s the **ordering** of a £30,000 car that is the key issue. You ordered it in writing, by signing the order form where warnings were written in LINGO when I raised it, and on the form itself. What other £30,000 item can you order, and then a while later cancel it (despite the advice on the paperwork) and expect not to have a liability?”

And finally I advised him: “You need to look in a mirror. You wanted it, you ordered it. I said “don’t sign unless you want it, or charges may apply” but you went ahead. Yet, you blame me? Find a big mirror. You need to take responsibility for the £30,000 car order.”

7) My very last words to this chap, at 11.58 this morning, were: “I’ll do my very best to minimise those costs, I need to argue your case to the supplier General Manager.”, as he said he needed a week’s breathing space. … which we now find out is a lie, as he plans THIS: “My plan is to state i’m not happy with the T’s & C’s with the finance and that may be my get out clause?”

8) I have (this evening, since he posted) said to him: “I suggest you take better legal advice than the Singletrack forum. I advise Citizens Advice or a Solicitor. Make sure you print, and show them THE WHOLE TRANSCRIPT and the signed order form, and your Singletrack comments.”

The fact the I now know he has been lying to me means he gets invoiced in the morning, and pays, or else it’s the Small Claims Court, where he can explain the first post in this thread to a Judge.

I’m very fair to deal with, often help customers as I offered to help him by getting the charge minimised. Anyone here who has had a car from me (a lot of people) will tell you that we have fun and everything is honest and transparent. More than any other business, in fact. Read my FB page to see the honest way I sell cars and cover difficult stuff with customers.

But, this one (I reserve the right to name and shame if he continues to lie), is just a “right” one.

Happy to comment further, but don’t want to upset any mods who might think I’m marketing.

Ling

I bet that 4hr wait must have been murder.

…and obligatory:

Edit:

But, this one (I reserve the right to name and shame if he continues to lie), is just a “right” one.

If you do this the whole thread will, well it probably will anyway, be deleted.

km79 – Member
The website is great, I love the madness.

Thanks!

bruneep – Member
On my 2nd car from them. Cheapest lease I could get, zero problems.

Good boy. I won’t punish YOU, then. 🙂

mattyfez – Member
Oppoh..

Hi, I’m a Nigerian Prince, I need your bank details, big monies!

Except I’m yellow, not black. Pay attention, nit.

BoardinBob – Member

When I leased her prices were by far the cheapest. Lowest up front payment by far and lowest monthly payments. There is absolutely no con going on

Thanks BoardinBob. a small spitty gift is in the post 🙂

legend – Member

The quality of info on her site is certainly higher than the info in your post

Grassy ass as they say in Catalonia at the moment.

Jamie – Member
It’s nothing like Brighthouse.

He was confused because my website is bright and I live in it, heh.

BoardinBob – Member

Except it’s one of the biggest private car leasing sites in the UK. Hugely successful. Ive leased from Ling. It might look garish but the site is very clever and unbelievably easy to use and completely transparent about costs etc.

I’ll upgrade you to a large spitty gift if you’re not careful.

Greybeard – Member
I didn’t realise from the OP that this is a lease, not a purchase. I think the Consumer Contracts Regs still apply, but I’m not sure.

They apply to the finance transaction, we are talking about the ordering of a £30,000 car, (ie the chunky metal thing). On Oct 16th, I said to him, as he was wittering about it: “Yes the dealer has secured: Skoda Superb 2.0, TDI, 16v, 150bhp, Sportline, Hatchback, 5 door, 1968cc, Diesel, DSG Automatic, Black Magic Metallic Paint, Extras: Rear LED lights, ISOFIX on Front passenger seats, Front and Rear Parking sensors, Rear Window Wiper.”, he replied 15 mins later: “Excellent! Really pleased.”

blitz – Member
If she sues surely you can counter claim for the effects from exposure to that website.

Best point, yet 🙂

crankboy – Member
On a brief scan I can’t see how you don’t have a right to cancel nor how you have incurred a cancellation fee , to begin to be valid a cancellation fee or formula to calculate one would need to be included in the contractual documentation.
Basically I’ve looked at the legislation linked above and what I could bare of the website and assumed you are correct when you say no cancellation fee was specified on the order form.

He’s worked you with false info, hasn’t he. Of course he has a right to cancel, anyone can cancel anything… but if there is a cost specified in an agreement (unless unlawful agreement or cost), then the cost should be paid.

whiterabbit84 – Member
Wow – I wouldn’t enter my email address into that site, never mind order a car. My head hurts looking at it.

Wear sunglasses.

martinhutch – Member
Would be unsurprised to see Ling pop up on this thread. Which would be entertaining.

After I got 27 emails, Tweets and FB messages from you within 10 minutes, writing all this takes up less of my evening than reading your messages, to be honest 🙂

AD – Member
Best FAQ ever! It would never have occurred to me to use a random flight attendant to answer a ‘can I cancel my car order? ‘ question. Absolute genius!

I’ll pass your regards to Christine 🙂

fossy – Member
The website alone would say ‘stay away’.

You’ve not paid any deposit so the car won’t be ordered. Check what you’ve clicked on, I doubt you’ll be liable. As an individual you usually have 30 days ‘cooling off period’ for agreements.

That’s just a babble of crap, you have no idea.

curto80 – Member
Bit of making it up as you go along going on here.

OP if you can email me a photo of the t&cs that were on what you signed I’ll take a look for you.

Intelligent response. If he sends you stuff, make sure he sends all… he has a FULL transcript, and all the docs I raised are online. 🙂

nealglover – Member
It’s a fair point though isn’t it.

If you signed an order form, that had terms and conditions attached, why would you expect them not to apply to you ?

I know it’s a pain in the arse, but unless those terms and conditions are somehow against regulations, I can’t see how you can complain really.

I like you, already 🙂

Fantombiker – Member
I think there is an implied contract in place. You expected the company to act and order the car thus incurring costs. They were acting in good faith. I think you are liable for those cancellation costs.

Can I hire you? 🙂

mattyfez – Member
has a 100% record of suing people who back out
Attempts to sue, or successfully suing.. Sounds like all mouth and no trousers and the reply was designed to intimidate.

You haven’t accepted any goods, no payment has been exchanged, I’m pretty sure there’s no contract in place.

Ianal

The OP said “sue”. I’ve never said “sue” Even to Sue. … but I will take him to the Small Claims Court if he refuses to pay, especially now I see he has been lying to me.

scotroutes – Member
Morally, I’m with the retailer.
Legally, I suspect it’ll depend on what you signed if/when you ordered the car.

Yup.

hodgynd – Member
What have you signed ..anything at all ?

He has full copies online, at his fingertips. Don’t let him deny that. My other customers on this forum will agree, it’s all available (for ver and ever). Amen.

km79 – Member
Did you tick some boxes you didn’t read when ordering this car? Can’t see why it can simultaneously be ordered yet not ordered?

I can get £40k loan into my bank account within the next 7mins just by ticking some boxes. Who signs and returns documents these days?

I have *NO* tick boxes at all, just big warnings in CAPS. I force customers to print, sign, scan or photo and return, (rather than an online form) because of this exact issue. Then they KNOW they have signed a form, even if they are as thick as…

matt_outandabout – Member
I’ve not signed the finance docs, or paid a deposit yet.
But you did sign some kind of order…? I am confused…

Yes he did. Don’t be confused, it was clear as day.

——

PHEW!

Ling

Maybe it would help the legal minds here, if I published a FULL TRANSCRIPT of the whole transaction, plus HD images of all documentation. He and I have all of that to hand.

Mods, will you allow that to be published here?

Ling

Thanks BoardinBob. a small spitty gift is in the post

😯

Maybe it would help the legal minds here, if I published a FULL TRANSCRIPT of the whole transaction, plus HD images of all documentation. He and I have all of that to hand.

Mods, will you allow that to be published here?

Ling

They’re all tucked up in bed with their teddies (teddys?). As a random internet stranger, I would advise not to.

Although, I am a sucker for HD images. So go for it.

Go for it

RichPenny – Member
Go for it

You are suckerin’ me in for a ban. I can feel it.

Hope the mods do you for honey trapping me.

Don’t worry, it’ll all wait 🙂

Yes, yes but the OP order a tapered steerer not a straight steerer version so it’s all a moot point surely? Then we get into Boost.

Did you make it clear he would get the straight steerer version, Boost or otherwise?

We need to be upfront about all this after all.

Before I go to bed, I’ll explain in a different way:

We all agree it’s a car on finance, right? Right.

So, there are 2 things

1) the car.

2) the finance.

The finance simply pays for the car, and is fully protected by consumer rights etc.

But after agreeing the finance in principle, one needs to get grubby hands on a new car. This is hard, try it yourself without passing any money over! This might be a car in dealer stock (rare), one in pipeline, ie on a boat or at the docks…(fairly common), or factory order (very common these days as dealers hate cars in stock). So the tit is pressed and the car is ordered from the factory.

Now, to get a car to a dealer, someone needs to commit to it, because when ordered it WILL arrive (can’t say “don’t build that one” to the factory), and when it arrives it WILL have to be paid for. Dealers pay for the cars.

All that is before anyone gets paid out for the finance, and the customer can cancel the finance on a whim… maybe rightly so.

So, to order cars (THE BIG METAL THING, STUPID), someone has to take some responsibility, and I share that with the dealer. Normally, a dealer would ask a customer for a hefty deposit to order a spangly Skoda Superb, as it can’t be re-sold to a minicab company, they want basic cars. Having a tinselly Superb aka. a Christmas Tree in the showroom puts them in a cold sweat. But that applies to most cars as dealers are cowards.

So, if someone asks me to order a car, regardless of how it’s paid for, I’ll say “I won’t rape you for £££ deposit, we can do it on trust… but cancel it and there is a charge, maybe as much as £500+vat. If you don’t want to do that, don’t sign the order form”

Is that a bit more clear??? Is it fair???

I have over £4 million of new cars on order. Me, just little me. From Gateshead. Dealers have to know I stand on my car orders.

Ling

I see where you’re coming from Ling but you still don’t clarify the point about the steerer type the OP has ordered. Without that clarification this is all just muddied waters which help no one.

Also the associated Baby Robin quotient will be awful until this is resolved. It’s not just about that £4 million of cars ordered its about the BR factor too, we must not forget that. Particularly as this situation has become progressively dire since the Brexit vote.

For that reason alone I hope yourself and the OP can work this out to your mutual satisfaction.

STW really does have the worst memes.

Yep, yep it does. 🙂

Which are inextricably linked – you cancel one, you cancel the other, and it’s the person linking them together who takes that risk. I guess that’s one of the costs of running a business providing cars on finance. But then unlike some of the people you’re disagreeing with on this thread, I’m not a lawyer…

Mrs/Miss ling,
I forgot you joined the forum tonight at the behest of social media chums, as a car dealer, not cyclist. Leaser/dealer… semantics. YES, WE KNOW A CAR IS THE BIG METAL THING by the way.

We get hit by them far too often NOT to know what they are…

That’s why you have no idea, being a new “member”, what my poorly verbalised and utterly awful “jokes” meant earlier. If you were on our little forum before tonight you would understand. This is a biking forum. First and foremost. On the whole without motors and certainly less two wheels compared to your normal fair. This site is “shonky”**, medium budget and for all the arguments over wheel size (no, not 14″ alloy opposed to 16” alloy) we are all on here for the same reason more or less.

You owe £4 million for the cars you don’t own at the moment then why is £500 (plus VAT) so desperately important to your business model? You will garner far more respect from such a tiny outlay than a years worth of paid for hosting of your, frankly awful, company website.

Changes in circumstance are why people end up on Dragons Den asking for backers/more money after all don’t you think? That’s what happened to the OP. A chance of circumstances. No more, no less.

The OP is a single individual. A long term member of this forum and just asking some advice from people on there he trusts for a clearer point of view. That’s why he posted on here. Not to rubbish you or your company but because he obviously does not have the backing of a multi million pound company of solicitors.

You seem to be on here to give “freebies” away to existing customers that support your companies view. Well, that’s fine.

However, how about showing some real,genuine customer support by helping *your customer* through a change of circumstance he/she could not possibly foresee?

He/she didn’t set out to lose you £500(plus vat) and possibly used your company as you previously showed great customer service. Why prove him wrong in that choice?

Sorry Mods, genuinely.

I believe that the OP began this discussion in good faith it seems but if the owner of this company knows exactly who the OP is then talk directly to him/her rather than calling the person out on a biking forum for goodness sakes.

Hope I don’t get banned as this forum means an awful lot to me but it needed to be said.

** Though a delight compared to some online presences!

14 day cooling off period. Legally entitled to cancel without penalty. You can write what you like in the paperwork; he cant sign away his legal rights, and it would be classed as an unfair contract term.

Your choice to run a risky business model; easy way to avoid it is not to order until 14 days has passed. But I guess sometimes £££ over ride common sense.

I’m really quite impressed by ling’s skills with the quote function.

BoardinBob – Member
From memory Ling is registered on here and she scours the internet relentlessly for mentions of her

She’ll probably be along shortly

8)

Can you charge vat on a cancellation fee?

I think boardinbob has just made a new login as Ling so he can look clever. You are Ling and I claim my £500 + VAT.

The OP’s gone very quiet. What’s the betting he regrets posting about this now 😀

I’m liking Ling though. 😳

Too slow, Bob… 8)

martinhutch – Member
Would be unsurprised to see Ling pop up on this thread. Which would be entertaining.

And just to clear up any confusion,

After I got 27 emails, Tweets and FB messages from you within 10 minutes,

Does not refer to me!

Not sure how she can post up the entire transaction info without breaching DPA, but hey ho.

She’s right up there with Trump for going nuclear at the first opportunity!

Wonder if OP has woken up to this yet? 🙂

BoardinBob – Member
BoardinBob – Member
From memory Ling is registered on here and she scours the internet relentlessly for mentions of her
She’ll probably be along shortly

Not true.

She was obviously simply alerted by a member (I’m assuming, rather sadly) that someone dared to contest her companies policy and she joined up in the late hours of last night. Her scouring is obviously done for her perhaps?

Either way,a lot of time and typing wasted that could have been spent on resolving the situation.

I’m slightly bemused that the owner of such a company is willing to flaunt data protection law potentially by threatening to post confidential customer information on a mountain bike site of all places to try and prove a point?

You don’t need to be a legal eagle to know that might be an unwise choice of threat to a customer.

Your problem ling is a dealer does not sell a car at a distance , you do why do you think the distance selling regulations don’t apply to your distance selling business model ?

Interesting but why would you ‘work on trust’ rather than ask for a deposit? Paying a small percentage of the total upfront isn’t paying extra and would mean you don’t have to go round wasting your time suing people.

Someone put up a link to her website so I’m guessing she could see all the traffic coming from STW

If the cancellation fee is legit and made clear I’m not sure the OP can duck it. My guess is she knows what she’s doing!

Strangely drawn in to her website. And I’m fascinated how much (or how little) it costs to get a BMW X5 to ponce around in. Eyeballs hurt.

Finance agreements such as PCP are not covered by distance selling regs.

If the brokerage service (which is what he’s signed up for) falls under distance selling, provided the likely cancellation fee is made clear up front, then there is no breach I can see, provided the fee is a reasonable representation of the actual costs to LingCars.

Ling should diversify into online bike sales.

Interesting but why would you ‘work on trust’ rather than ask for a deposit? Paying a small percentage of the total upfront isn’t paying extra and would mean you don’t have to go round wasting your time suing people.

Ling’s working on trust with the dealer, not the end consumer. This allows her to not have to do such big upfront payments to consumers, a USP of the business and strong selling point in a competitive market.

If the cancellation fee is legit and made clear I’m not sure the OP can duck it.

^^This. I’d also say there’s an ethical question too that a customer shouldn’t expect to cancel on a whim and leave a business carrying costs as a result of the cancellation. “They’re a business,hey can afford it, it’s fine” is a void argument, ethically flawed and if the boot was on the other foot, would you accept it? And if you did, how long do you think you’d stay in business if costs eroded your margins?

She was obviously simply alerted by a member (I’m assuming, rather sadly) that someone dared to contest her companies policy and she joined up in the late hours of last night. Her scouring is obviously done for her perhaps?

Probably google alerts. Easy enough to set up, pretty sure chewkw does it as if you mention him in a thread he magically appears a few hours later as if summoned.

And if anything, this thread needs more chewkw.

You need to say his name three times, just like Brant. Chewkw (HTH).

I’ve asked the OP not to post further on here whilst I help him sort this out.

I don’t think Mrs Ling realises how many solicitors there are lurking on the STW forums (other than residential conveyancers who have all been killed off).

After we’ve dealt with this I’ll post an explanation of the legal position.

if it is Ling, and I hope it is, apart from a deliberately aggressive approach (which TBH, anyone that’s seen her ‘work’ before would be disappointed if we didn’t get) I can’t seem to find a flaw with her argument.

As for the ‘change in circumstance’ plea. Oh, come on. He was going self employed and ordered a 30K car. Now he’s been offered employment and gets a company car. Yes it’s a change in circumstance but this is an attempt to get out of something he willingly and wittingly signed for, and even more was daft enough to then tell everyone how he was going to fib about it.

In fact just about the only thing I will disagree with Ling about is the website. You don’t need sunglasses, a blind man can still see that’s hideous 😉

No voodoo or Google alerts needed.

From Lings earlier post:

After I got 27 emails, Tweets and FB messages from you within 10 minutes, writing all this takes up less of my evening than reading your messages, to be honest

That’s a side issue however.

Man orders factory build car with extras, changes mind after agreeing to cancellation charges, man pays cancellation charge.

It seems quite clear cut to me, annoying as it may be knowing you’ve wasted your money. It’s really not fair to make someone else take the hit for your buyers regret.

Also, who decides to enter the precarious world of self employment and makes their first move to treat themselves to a £30K car??
When I went self employed seven years ago the first thing I bought was a £300 van…

The OP’s gone very quiet. What’s the betting he regrets posting about this now

For the record I shall be saying no more because this is now in the hands of a solicitor and I’ve been advised not to add anything else until further notice.

Interesting but why would you ‘work on trust’ rather than ask for a deposit? Paying a small percentage of the total upfront isn’t paying extra and would mean you don’t have to go round wasting your time suing people.

Probably for exactly this. All people see is the no deposit bit, and don’t pay much attention to the cancellation fee.
A roundabout way of the company making the deal more enticing while still protecting themselves.

this is now in the hands of a solicitor

What’s his fee structure like?

I just assumed you were asleep op, as I should be. 😉

I’d also say there’s an ethical question too that a customer shouldn’t expect to cancel on a whim and leave a business carrying costs as a result of the cancellation.

Twice, within 12 months.

Poopscoop – Member

No voodoo or Google alerts needed.

From Lings earlier post:

You might not want to take that point so literally

I don’t think Mrs Ling realises how many solicitors there are lurking on the STW forums (other than residential conveyancers who have all been killed off).

I doubt she cares

legend
You might not want to take that point so literally

Genuinely, why?