Legal advice please – cancelling a new car dispute

They did and why did they then?

I believe we need a counter-screenshot!

This image promises Three Facepalms.

It contains Zero Facepalms.

I’m not happy and I’m considering legal action. You will be hearing from someone who will no doubt say he is my Lawyer.

Well worth a punt if you think you have any kind of case and there’s nothing specific that says a car with options is not bespoke.

I’d say this is pretty clear.

14.
An item made up following a consumer order does not necessarily make it a bespoke item which is exempt from cancellation rights. An item, for example a sofa or computer, can be assembled following an order but the component parts may be made up of parts offered from a standard range. So, for instance, a sofa where the consumer chooses a fabric and colour from a range on offer will not be bespoke for the purposes of these Regulations.
However, if the consumer asks the trader to source a special finish and which is not in the range generally offered by the trader, that is likely to be a bespoke item.

Also the OP said it was from a pre-specified list of cars / specs so likely to be pre-built and in storage; if this is the case – not ‘bespoke’.

Wrong. You can’t misrepresent like that to a finance company.

What you call misrepresentation some of us see as ineptitude and incompetence.

I reckon that’s fraud, neal – clearly the people palming their faces aren’t the ones fronting it.

Wrong. You can’t misrepresent like that to a finance company. It is potential fraud, and fraud is illegal.

It’s not fraud.

No finance company would ever lease a car to a person in the OP’s position.

And they aren’t leasing an unemployed person a car.

They are leasing a car to his (obviously very credit worthy) friend.
Who is responsible for the payments.

You said yourself, anyone can then drive that car as long as they are correctly insured.

Therefore he is deliberately misleading them.

No he isn’t.

It’s very clear

This I agree with.

It is very clear. Clear that the lease situation wasn’t fraud.

sr0093193 – Member
What stuff didn’t they disclose?
You can buy a car for some one it’s not illegal. Stupid maybe.

Potentially, it’s defrauding the finance company. If you bought a house with false information, what happens when the mortgage isn’t paid?

When these payments had gone tits up, there would have been a loss. Bigly. That’s why I’m glad the car was not delivered. Glad I’m no longer in THAT loop.

But will recover my costs here, as detailed.

Ling

Ling are you seriously suggesting that the proposer has used false information to obtain a finance agreement?? I’ve had plenty of cars over the years and they’ve never once asked who was going to drive the car. Maybe you should ask on your website if you feel it’s fraudulent not to declare this when you apply??

You are seriously on dodgy ground with your constant slanderous and factually incorrect accusations. This is border line defamation now.

Not happy with looking like a bully who wants £600 for doing F all, you now want to add defamation to the rap sheet that already has data protection breaches as well as a serious breach of consumer rights.

As friends of over 25 years he knew that I was ‘good for my money’ and the only reason I cancelled was because I had that 1% feeling there may be an issue. Your company was aware from the off of this arrangement, so please don’t make this out to be some sort of fraudulent deal.

Another interesting comment that my mate has made was he had to input all his data into your website for the finance, then as you recall, he waited for days for the dealer to call to make the finance application. You were asked to chase that up and he was on a course. You were asked to try a different dealer and suddenly the finance was approved yet no call from the dealer.

So how did that happen then? Presumably you forwarded the information and it was proposed by a car salesman in a Skoda dealer without the proposer being present?? That’s well dodgy. Another data breach there.

To be fair i’m pleased the car’s not been delivered cos I wouldn’t have to deal with you at the end…

when I read dross like this in your info:

You can use kettle of hot water to help remove these (gay people can use hairdryer

🙄

Anyways, good luck with the invoice 😉

Your company was aware from the off of this arrangement,

vs

But, I (or my team) had NO KNOWLEDGE of an accommodation deal (ie misrepresenting to a finance company). I’ve been through every transcript.

¯\_(?)_/¯

Still the costs of her legal advice (which she can’t claim back) and the costs of her time – though she seems happy enough to waste that on here (though I suspect it counts as marketing). There are also costs – you can’t claim for legal costs, but the OP could claim travel expenses and lost earnings.

She doesn’t need legal advice. This isn’t Crown Court, it’s both of them chatting with some old duffer. She can just rock up with a case she’s cobbled together herself from this thread.

I think we’ve established quite clearly that the car isn’t bespoke

I think most likely that’s true. But who knows, if it’s an unusual set of options it could be argued. Maybe Ling will think it’s worth a punt. (Although the stupid threats make me think she doesn’t think she has much of a legal case.) It’s not totally beyond debate. Also there’s a long list of exceptions including things with long lead times so who knows.

¯\_(?)_/¯

Given the OP previous complaint about only being able to communicate via the Lingo system it should be obvious from the transcript which version is true.

I’m sure he’ll come up with the screenshot any minute now…..

Just as an aside, you can’t insure a car and then have someone else drive it full time in my experience. An old policy from years back stiplulated it could only be used by a third party for 75 days a year.

Additionally, would OP not require a vehicle to be insured on first, before being able to drive the Superb.

…and additionally, wouldn’t that be third party only on a £30k car?

So many questions, so few biscuits.

Anything can be argued, and it sounds like ling is up for that (she’d fit in well here). The chances of a successful argument are somewhat different – it’s quite clear from how the resident lawyers have explained it that the rarity of the options is irrelevant, provided they’re all standard options. Though in any case the car is from a stock list, which rather precludes any attempt at a “bespoke” argument.

Though I don’t think that’s specifically ling’s argument anyway – in her first post she writes “It is nothing to do with distance selling rules, the Agency Charge falls outside of that legislation.” It seems she thinks that by specifying things differently she can get around the regulations.

Your company was aware from the off of this arrangement,
vs

But, I (or my team) had NO KNOWLEDGE of an accommodation deal (ie misrepresenting to a finance company). I’ve been through every transcript.
¯\_(?)_/¯

before we even started communicating on the lingo system I contacted them by phone and ran the scenario by them, I was put on hold and told as long as my mate was a named driver then it was fine. . It was after this my mate was added to the system, so there was two of us on the LINGO system. If it wasn’t acceptable then why would we be both on it and why wouldn’t they query the delivery address as totally different to the proposers??

Can’t even get a mobile phone delivered to a separate address but Ling’s happy to deliver £30k car……

As suspected, the stupid messenger service is for their protection not the consumers.

Not sure about the insurance bearneccessities, although I know you can get policies covering you on other people’s cars. Eg. My daughter can get a short/medium term policy to drive my car, totally separate to my policy, meaning any crash/claim by her is not made by me or on my policy and so doesn’t affect me. So that sort of thing, although expensive , would cover it.

Well of course it is. Do you currently have access to all messages on the system? If I were you I’d download them all now whilst you can.

it’s quite clear from how the resident lawyers have explained it that the rarity of the options is irrelevant, provided they’re all standard options.

The resident lawyers state that, but then point to something that strongly implies that but really isn’t specific. But yeah, most likely they’re right, and standard options don’t make a car bespoke. (Bitterly unfair AFAIC, but them’s the rules.)

Though in any case the car is from a stock list, which rather precludes any attempt at a “bespoke” argument.

If true then clearly that does 100pc sink the bespoke argument.

in her first post she writes “It is nothing to do with distance selling rules, the Agency Charge falls outside of that legislation.”

Hmmm, if so we’ll have to wait and see then.

before we even started communicating on the lingo system I contacted them by phone and ran the scenario by them, I was put on hold and told as long as my mate was a named driver then it was fine. . It was after this my mate was added to the system, so there was two of us on the LINGO system. If it wasn’t acceptable then why would we be both on it and why wouldn’t they query the delivery address as totally different to the proposers??

Because the car is under finance, the policy has to be taken out by/in the name of the person with the financial interest. Doesn’t meant that that person has to be named as the main driver, mind.
OP, why didn’t you do the normal thing, and get your mate to act as guarantor?

This insurance part of this is easy. Neither the OP or his partner in crime would be the registered owner or keeper of the vehicle. That will be VWFS. Knowing this, the insurance company will only care about the insurance policy holder, main driver and their address. This can be the OP, the name on the finance document is completely unrelated.

Just as an aside, you can’t insure a car and then have someone else drive it full time in my experience. An old policy from years back stiplulated it could only be used by a third party for 75 days a year.

Additionally, would OP not require a vehicle to be insured on first, before being able to drive the Superb.

…and additionally, wouldn’t that be third party only on a £30k car?

As you say, it’s an aside, because they never took delivery of the car.

Aracer I think she thinks that the charge invoiced to her by her supplier (if real), which does fall outside the CCRs because it is a B2B arrangement, can simply be passed through to the end consumer without then coming into the scope of the CCRs. That is completely wrong.

It seems clear enough to me – though I’m assuming they know how these things are interpreted in reality, and there was a quite clear statement from one that it doesn’t apply to cars with standard options.

Hmmm, if so we’ll have to wait and see then.

We will – though I’m struggling to see how the agency charge isn’t BS – there are even quotes around “agency” on the order form, and it certainly falls foul of the vagueness issue mentioned by both of our lawyers.

Neither the OP or his partner in crime would be the registered owner or keeper of the vehicle. That will be VWFS.

In which case is this technically a hire car and therefore specifically excluded by distance selling regs?

Just as an aside, you can’t insure a car and then have someone else drive it full time in my experience.

You are correct. The person using the vehicle most of the time needs to be the main driver on the policy.

However..

You don’t need to own a car to be the main driver on a policy (company cars).
You don’t need to be the registered keeper to insure a car.

Some insurance companies will require you to be the registered keeper, some will just charge you more, some won’t care. But you do have to tell them you don’t own it and aren’t the registered keeper when taking out the policy.

Ah, yes that makes sense. Pretty much the whole thread I’ve been pointing out that she’s trying to pass the costs of running her business onto the customer without any proper legal basis for that.

unusual set of options it could be argued.

Well it does come with a rear wiper. and isofix… Aiii. 8)

I’m assuming they know how these things are interpreted in reality

Me too, but they linked to guidance about chairs which is similar but not identical to cars. A 10k car could easily have 12k worth of options. That feels pretty bespoke to me!

Also there’s something in the rules about things with 30 lead times being excluded.

But yeah, most likely cars with standard options are included.

Pretty much the whole thread I’ve been pointing out that she’s trying to pass the costs of running her business onto the customer

The costs of running her business are all 100pc passed on to the customer. The only question is if this specific customer has to pay this specific cost. If not future customers will be collectively paying for it.

In which case is this technically a hire car and therefore specifically excluded by distance selling regs?

Looks like it.

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/distance-selling-regulations

Cancelling a service contract

If you’re buying a service, such as gym membership or a cleaning service, you can usually cancel up to seven working days from the day after you enter into the contract.

But there are some contracts you can’t cancel simply because you change your mind, including:

contracts for transport and some leisure services to be provided on a specific date, eg hotel bookings, flights, car hire, concert and other event tickets

Ling the Merciless

Im proud of that one

But there are some contracts you can’t cancel simply because you change your mind, including:

contracts for transport and some leisure services to be provided on a specific date, eg hotel bookings, flights, car hire, concert and other event tickets

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/made

Limits of application: circumstances excluding cancellation

28.—(1) This Part does not apply as regards the following—

(a)the supply of—
(i)goods, or
(ii)services, other than supply of water, gas, electricity or district heating,for which the price is dependent on fluctuations in the financial market which cannot be controlled by the trader and which may occur within the cancellation period;
(b)the supply of goods that are made to the consumer’s specifications or are clearly personalised;
(c)the supply of goods which are liable to deteriorate or expire rapidly;
(d)the supply of alcoholic beverages, where—
(i)their price has been agreed at the time of the conclusion of the sales contract,
(ii)delivery of them can only take place after 30 days, and
(iii)their value is dependent on fluctuations in the market which cannot be controlled by the trader;
(e)contracts where the consumer has specifically requested a visit from the trader for the purpose of carrying out urgent repairs or maintenance;
(f)the supply of a newspaper, periodical or magazine with the exception of subscription contracts for the supply of such publications;
(g)contracts concluded at a public auction;
(h)the supply of accommodation, transport of goods, vehicle rental services, catering or services related to leisure activities, if the contract provides for a specific date or period of performance.
(2) Sub-paragraph (e) of paragraph (1) does not prevent this Part applying to a contract for—

(a)services in addition to the urgent repairs or maintenance requested, or
(b)goods other than replacement parts necessarily used in making the repairs or carrying out the maintenance,
if the trader supplies them on the occasion of a visit such as is mentioned in that sub-paragraph.

Is a vehicle lease a rental? I’m not sure.

Is a vehicle lease a rental?

A lease is technically a “Personal Contract Hire”, so aren’t “hire” and “rent” effectively the same?

No this isn’t a car hire arrangement, this is an operating lease. That reference is intended to capture actual car hire bookings.

Re the point about the guidance relating to the chairs – obviously the guidance can’t predict every single scenario that might arise and my job as a solicitor is to interpret the law and apply it to the facts. But three things to note:

– the OP didn’t select that spec, it was pre-packaged

– even if he had, there is a list of options generated by the manufacturer, so they control the variables, not the consumer

– that carve out is really intended to protect tradesmen that create something on demand that is truly bespoke – ie: of little or no value to anyone other than the person that ordered it.
You have to have some regard to the context and the intention behind the law.

A lease is technically a “Personal Contract Hire”, so aren’t “hire” and “rent” effectively the same?

I would have thought so, but:

https://www.allvehiclecontracts.co.uk/InformationArticle/Compliance-Your-Rights/Your-Rights—Personal-Contract-Hire.html

You will have the right to cancel or withdraw from the personal contract agreement for a period of 14 days, relating to Distance Marketing Regulations 2004. This act regulates distance selling that is not face to face and not conducted on trade premises.
Personal contract hire agreements are often agreed on-line or by phone with agreements sent electronically (some contract hire companies insist by post for customer approval).
The 14 day cooling off period begins the day after the agreement is made, being determined by the date on which the contract hire company sign it, not the date you sign.
Exercising your cancellation can be actioned by writing to the contract hire company within the 14 day cooling off period, stating that you wish to cancel the agreement.
If you exercise your right to cancel, you will be entitled to be returned any money paid to it by you (or by any person on your behalf) less a charge for any service provided to you under this agreement as to your instructions or request, prior to the expiry of the cancellation period.

Thanks – I thought about posting something similar myself, but figured one of you guys would turn up and write it with a bit more authority.

Looks like the OP is out of pocket then.

again not my area of expertise but vehicle rental is temporary hire for a couple of days ie like the service Avis or Hertz supply , acquisition of a long term car by lease or hp or personal finance is different.

Clearly distance selling rules on a holiday car lease would be nonsense ie ” i’ve had the car for 7 days within the 14 day cooling off id now like to exercise my right to cancel and a full refund please i’ll pay you 50p for depreciation and £1 to empty the ash tray.”

PCP / HP allow you to own the vehicle at the end. PCH does not. That’s the fundamental difference regarding it being a hire vehicle.

– the OP didn’t select that spec, it was pre-packaged

We’ve been told that, but we don’t know that for sure. If it’s true then I agree something that’s prepackaged is not bespoke.

You have to have some regard to the context and the intention behind the law.

Hence my example of a 10k car with 12k worth of options and a market value to another customer of 10k rather than the 22k original cost. I’d have thought within the intention of the law that would be bespoke.

There are two Lings posting.

One sounds well informed and signs off ‘-Ling’

The other types furiously in a semi potty mouthed frenzy.

I don’t know what this means, but interesting.

eh? Not at all from what I’m seeing – what gives you that impression?