[Closed] Labour is to blame for austerity according to....

Gordon played a big part in the crash, well documented.

Not surprised by this ^^

Not sure why this is coming out now?? Political action imminent??

Gordon Brown’s over spending is to some degree responsible for the current debt we’re dealing with

The (necessary) bailing out of the banks caused (most of) the debt. It could be argued that the laissez-faire regulatory scheme adopted by the Labour Government gave rise to the behaviours by the banks that led to the crash and the (necessary) bailout.

Austerity is/was a means of tackling the debt (and the deficit, there's a difference). There were other options that may have worked, but the Tories chose that one.

So, who's to blame for the policy of austerity? It's complicated.

Gordon played a big part in the crash, well documented.

Gordon Brown played a big part in the worldwide response to the crash, and was/is pretty well respected for it.

Agree ^^

He did play a big part in that too.

Yeah I witnessed Momentum putting another boot into the millions of people who voted in the party they supposedly support 3 times.

I really feel for Gordon Brown, make no mistakes he is an incredibly talented economist, it's rare, in fact almost unheard for the US to listen to anyone else, let alone a foreign Leader - but they were all ears after Lehmans fell and some very smart, very influential economists have said publicly if they'd agreed to his plan to save them then we might just have avoided it all.

The Tories always like to say that during the good years it was despite his policies, but the Global Crash that started in the US, was certainly his fault.

Oh yeah and the old chestnut about how he sold all the Gold when prices were low because he doesn't know how Buy Low, Sell High works - well I challenge anyone to say they predicted 9/11

The (necessary) bailing out of the banks caused (most of) the debt.

Is that true? There was a massive bail out but I *thought* the UK ended up in overall profit from the 2008 rescue package.

So, who’s to blame for the policy of austerity? It’s complicated.

I don't think any sane commentator would dispute that. That's why it's interesting that Labour would cheerfully take the blame, potentially 5 minutes before an election.

@ P-Jay, why did he sell all that gold?

I don’t subscribe to him not knowing about high/ low etc but didn’t he claim to have ended the boom bust economic model?

Agreed, and it's illustrative of the strange place Labour finds itself in at the moment, eh?

I *thought* the UK ended up in overall profit from the 2008 rescue package.

Really? I wasn't aware of that (I'm not saying it's not true, I've just never heard it said)

As for the claim by Monentum, I think that's more down to the fact that Labour Party politics at the moment is mostly concerned with the problems of the Judean People's Front. Luckily there's no other pressing problems of state that they're being distracted from...

Really? I wasn’t aware of that (I’m not saying it’s not true, I’ve just never heard it said)

The media mainly focus on RBS which was a loss, but I'm pretty sure the UK made a fortune out of the Lloyds baleout which more than offset the loss on RBS, not sure if any other banks took part so overall the UK should have made a profit. I've just googled and can't find a specific set of numbers so maybe there's some aspects I don't understand/am not aware of.

The only (sane) accusation of overspending against Brown I've ever seen was that he was a bit flash with the cash because he had to spend £££s to look good in case of an early election. That election never happened so there were 2 solid years of high spending instead of the blip needed to keep the voters happy before an election. (I've no idea if that accusation is true or not, but it sounds plausible whereas the idea that Labour singlehandedly caused the global crash is bat poo mental AFAIC.)

@ P-Jay, why did he sell all that gold?

There is a claim about that he did it to bail out a bank who made a very bad call and would have started the 2008 crisis early. Or it was just selling something off without knowing the hoarders would go crazy about it shortly afterwards due to specific events.

As for this post. Its a tricky one really since the tories often use the look at what Labour did excuse. So by saying bad judgements were made around going the deregulation approach is a starting point especially if they point out the only objection the tories had was the deregulation hadnt gone far enough.

Thanks dissonance

While I'm no economist, I believe one of the bigger criticisms of Brown is how he and Blair put us all in hock with costly PFI schemes.

When good old fashioned overspending would have been better VFM.

Gordon played a big part in the crash, well documented.

An analysis of the timeline of event would suggest otherwise....

It all started in the sub prime US mortgage market. From Jan 2008 the Fed was trying to prop up the collapsing housing market. Things got worse and worse for a good 7 months before it was really noticed in the UK. The first big thing most people saw was RBS collapsing in Nov 2008 when the Government took a 58% state in the bank.

A quick potted history of stuff Labour / Gordon Brown had nothing to do with...

January 2008, The Fed began lowering Fed fund rates. However this failed to stop the foreclosure rate in US homes (which rose 57% in Jan 2008).

Feb 2008: President Bush signed a tax rebate bill to help the struggling housing market. The bill increased limits for Federal Housing Administration loans and allowed Freddie Mac to repurchase jumbo loans. Foreclosures were up 60 percent year-over-year. It was about the same as January's 57 percent foreclosure increase.

On March 11, the Fed announced it would lend $200 billion in Treasury notes to bail out bond dealers. They were stuck with mortgage-backed securities and other collateralized debt obligations. They couldn't resell them on the secondary market. The subprime mortgage crisis dried up the secondary market for these debt products.

Beginning March 14, the Federal Reserve held its first emergency weekend meeting in 30 years. On March 17, it announced it would guarantee Bear Stearns' bad loans. It wanted JP Morgan to purchase Bear and prevent bankruptcy. Bear Stearns' had about $10 trillion in securities on its books. If it had gone under, these securities would have become worthless. That would have jeopardized the global financial system.

On July 11, the Office of Thrift Supervision closed IndyMac Bank. Los Angeles police warned angry IndyMac depositors to remain calm while they waited in line to withdraw funds from the failed bank. About 100 people worried they would lose their deposit. The Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation only insured amounts up to $100,000.

On July 23, Secretary Paulson made the Sunday talk show rounds. He explained the need for a bailout of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. The two agencies themselves held or guaranteed more than half of the $12 trillion of the nation's mortgages. Wall Street's fears that these loans would default caused Fannie's and Freddie's shares to tumble. This made it more difficult for the private companies to raise capital themselves.

September 7: Treasury Nationalizes Fannie and Freddie. The FHFA placed Fannie and Freddie under conservatorship. It allowed the government to run the two until they were strong enough to return to independent management.

September 15, 2008: Lehman Brothers Bankruptcy Triggered Global Panic

September 29, 2008: Stock Market Crashes as Bailout Rejected

Nov 2008, RBS collapses....

As for the UK deficit sky rocketing, prior to the Sep 2008 crash, increased public spending was pretty modest compared with GDP and the Tories has promised to match the same spending on public services if elected. Only when GDP collapsed and the defecit rose did the Tories suddenly change their tune and try and blame excessive spending on Labour (which they managed successfully even though they had agreed to match the same figures).

@ P-Jay, why did he sell all that gold?

Sort of simply.

Gold had (and still is) used as a hedge against inflation, but in the late 90s it was seen as being too volatile (Gold price fluctuation has caused the previous large crash and we'd had to pull out of the Exchange Rate Mechanism).

Gold prices had been flat / falling for years and of course it pays no dividend. We (The UK) was sitting on literal tonnes of it, at the same time as a large national debt (although nothing like it is now).

By selling about half our reserves and reinvesting them in various foreign currencies we'd have a better, less volatile hedge against inflation.

At first The City, being The City saw an opportunity to make money out of nothing and shorted Gold and reduced the value by 10% so it cost us, but by the end of the sale GB had made a deal with various central banks to prop up the value for 5 years.

The only objections at the time were nationalistic - we'd sold real tangible gold which conjured imagines of Crowns and Coins to the hard of thinking and bought, amongst other things Euros which were only a few years old and was already a hot political topic in the UK. Some of the red tops tried to make out he was selling the actual Crown Jewels.

The plan worked well, we reduced our debt and interest payments and had a better hedge against inflation.

Unfortunately 9/11 happened mere months later and a nervous market did what it always does in times of panic, bought up lots of Gold sending the price sky rocketing. Our multi-currency hedge worked and the £ didn't dive as worse than any other western currency, but we didn't make a fortune from the rise in Gold prices (which you could argue is only a value until you actually try to convert it into currency).

I'll let you decide whether or not it was a mistake, or just a missed opportunity because he didn't bet on a large scale terrorist attack.

but didn’t he claim to have ended the boom bust economic model?

Also for this, yeah he did but then lots of people made bad predictions in that period.
The problem was they looked at a slightly extended good period and the collapse of the Soviet alternative to think history really had changed in their favour.
Sadly people still keep making not dissimilar predictions about their favourite economic/political model ignoring how short a time they have been around.

Thanks P-Jay.

@ footflaps - I read somewhere that the subprime mortgages were a response to the dot.com bubble bursting and US treasury/ large companies looking for a new revenue stream. So the time lines starts even further back in that case

I don’t subscribe to him not knowing about high/ low etc but didn’t he claim to have ended the boom bust economic model?

One of his first acts as Chancellor was to hand over control of interest rates to the BOE.

For years The Tories had used them for political reasons, rising rates mid-term and then dropping them a few months prior to an election to pump up the feel-good factor. This sort of reckless movement was, in part, the cause for very high rates of the 80s.

The plan was that the BOE, using a pre-agreed mechanism would meet once a quarter to set the rate to, at least try, to warm/cool the UK economy to avoid the boom/bust of the past.

It worked very well, we enjoyed the longest period of continued growth in British history. Sadly the US sub-prime scandal brought at end to it. Even now though the BOE (who do come under pressure from No10 and No11 to do certain things) control rate to try to smooth the waves.

Not saying it caused the crash, but PFI was (and remains in some cases) shit.

The media mainly focus on RBS which was a loss, but I’m pretty sure the UK made a fortune out of the Lloyds baleout which more than offset the loss on RBS, not sure if any other banks took part so overall the UK should have made a profit. I’ve just googled and can’t find a specific set of numbers so maybe there’s some aspects I don’t understand/am not aware of.

There are stats on the national statistics site about how much they've got back etc. I've never crunched all the numbers, but I think the above is broadly correct. RBS is close to being back to even too.

@ footflaps – I read somewhere that the subprime mortgages were a response to the dot.com bubble bursting and US treasury/ large companies looking for a new revenue stream. So the time lines starts even further back in that case

Keep digging until you start reading about Tulip Bulbs and you'd understand that behind all the science it's all human greed that drives things.

P-Jay - do you think these efforts with low interest rates will contribute to another economic issue later down the line as the private debt builds up?

The media mainly focus on RBS which was a loss, but I’m pretty sure the UK made a fortune out of the Lloyds baleout which more than offset the loss on RBS, not sure if any other banks took part so overall the UK should have made a profit. I’ve just googled and can’t find a specific set of numbers so maybe there’s some aspects I don’t understand/am not aware of.

Lloyds could have made a lot of money, but there were only a small select number of buyers allowed... funny that.

RBS is still partly state owned. It could be used as an investment for the UK, but it goes against Tory dogma to have a publicly owned Bank. They'd rather sell at a loss (to their mates) than keep it and sell at a profit, or worse retain ownership and enjoy the dividends as it goes against the myth of privatisation equals better, always.

P-Jay – do you think these efforts with low interest rates will contribute to another economic issue later down the line as the private debt builds up?

Yes, but it's the least worst option now.

If the Ref had gone the other way we'd be at 1.5% now at least. The Banks have put their houses in order, we're building again and were ready to weather a house price correction to try to fix the housing problem. Brexit put everything on hold. There was an argument to put up rates 3 years ago to have somewhere to go if/when there's another recession, but didn't happen.

Tbh though there's more behind the rise in private debt that rates. Everyone costs things monthly now instead of in total and indebtedness is counted in terms of affordability and not total debt.

If I was Germany I'd be more worried about the size and position of VW FS and BMW FS than say credit card debt.

we’re building again and were ready to weather a house price correction to try to fix the housing problem.

There is also the desperate boosting of the housing market, sorry help to buy (I get confused between those terms) which has had the taxpayers throwing money at parsimmion and co and keeping the market inflated.

Brown and Blair were in bed with the banks (and the consequent house price inflation which got them re-elected), but then again, so would have been the Tories.
The issue really goes back to the Big Bang and deregulation of the financial sector, and how this related to engineered house price inflation to secure re-election; Cameron and Osbourne pulled the same trick with Help to Buy.
There is a debate as to whether John Smith (had he lived) would have taken on the financial sector which labour traditionally is suspicious of...instead we had Gordon End of Boom and Bust Brown.

Gordon played a big part in the crash, well documented.

An analysis of the timeline of event would suggest otherwise….

I’m well aware of Gordon’s actions and timeline. Working for a prominent Bank throughout the whole crisis pre-post 2008 we were very aware of his daily actions and initiatives.

Agreed it all started in the US, that’s well documented, but Gordon was chancellor here and made some questionable decisions that adversely affected both the UKs outcome and the landscape we now face.

I too (begrudgingly) agree he was dealt a poor hand during his campaign, but he was more than well versed with the political stance and restrictions that lay at his feet when making his decision.

What I do admire about him, is that he’s a very prolific supporter of local charities and initiatives and always has been.

Overall, I think (looking back) he’s probably one of the best chancellors the UK has ever had.

Its a shame the situation he found himself in was way over the list of requirements when he landed the job.

For a clear eyed and focussed analysis of the crash read Fool's Gold by Gillian Tett; FT journalist.
She was one of the few who predicted it.
Lots of other books but hers is, I think, the clearest exposition of the background followed by the events and then the aftermath.

Does this all come back to poor regulation of individuals greed by government because governments are made up of greedy individuals? Did some digging ( I see what you did there! ), it seems nothing has been learned from the secondary housing crisis regarding regulation of the financial sector.

It looks like the tulip model has been refined in finance to make it easier to pull the wool over the eyes of the general population.

For my part, I find economics hard to get my head around. I heard a saying once that if you put 7 economists in a room, you will get 8 solutions to the problem!

Austerity wasn't caused by the crash, though. The crash just created the excuse- or the opportunity- for the tory/lib dem government to smash through reforms under that allpurpose justification of "austerity" Even when they were doing things that cost money overall like selling national assets for cut price, or removing cost effective parts of the state, or slowing the recovery it was all "we have to live within our means".

THM actually had this one right, in a way- he kept saying there was no such thing as austerity because the government was actually following a loose, high spending fiscal policy. Of course, that's a wrong assumption- austerity did exist and did ruin lives, it's just it didn't lead to "balancing the books", and wasn't ever supposed to.

Disaster capitalism isn't supposed to fix the disaster.

I suppose you could argue that Gordon Brown’s over spending is to some degree responsible for the current debt we’re dealing with

The debt is not the main issue. Or even the issue at all. The main issue and ultimate cause for the need for austerity was the deficit which was Blair and browns fault. The country wand in. If debt before the crash and with a crippling deficit. Austerity doesn’t fix debt, it fixes structural deficits. We cannot carry on indefinitely spending more than we earn. It’s fine to carry debt if your spending is under control but before the crash it was spiralling out of control.

There is also the desperate boosting of the housing market, sorry help to buy (I get confused between those terms) which has had the taxpayers throwing money at parsimmion and co and keeping the market inflated.

Boosting / lifeline, I don’t suppose it matters in real terms.

But yes, HTB and near zero interest rates weren’t used to help young people get on the ladder so much as to keep our banks liquid at a time of national crisis.

As above, the banks are liquid now and diversified enough to handle a correction. The public might not like it, but thanks to more stringent affordability checks they can to.

If we’d voted for remain we might have finally put the ‘Great Recession’ behind us by now.

The debt is not the main issue. Or even the issue at all. The main issue and ultimate cause for the need for austerity was the deficit which was Blair and browns fault. The country wand in. If debt before the crash and with a crippling deficit. Austerity doesn’t fix debt, it fixes structural deficits. We cannot carry on indefinitely spending more than we earn. It’s fine to carry debt if your spending is under control but before the crash it was spiralling out of control.

The deficit fell for the first half of the Blair/Brown period and was fairly for (as a % or GDP) for the second half. It rose massively when we bailed the banks out of course, but continued to rise until about 2 years ago.

Contrary to legend, Deficts tend to fall under Labour governments and rise under Tory governments. Our Debt was about 65% of GDP (GDP 2.4tn) when Cameron came to power, peaked at 85% when GDP was and is now about 82% (GDP 2.8tn)

So, despite all this austerity and GDP growth our national debt has risen since the end of the credit crunch.

I remember in the years before the crash, we had a budget surplus that Gordon Brown chose to spend to grow the economy rather than pay down the national debt, on the assumption that the boom bust cycle had been finally solved. After the crash he maintained his actions were sound, and it was Johnny Foreigners woes that brought us down, but everything is interconnected now and I don't think the UK economy was in a robust enough state to weather a global storm. He did do what he needed to do post crash, but it's not like there were a lot of alternatives.

Would have been nice if he hadn't sold our gold at rock bottom prices.

Would have been nice if he hadn’t sold our gold at rock bottom prices.

Yep, as per an earlier post, fancy not predicting 9/11. Silly Gordon.

Would have been nice if he hadn’t sold our gold at rock bottom prices.

Did you buy a load of gold when gold was at rock bottom prices? If not why not? Was it because you can't predict the future so you only know the price was rock bottom in hindsight? Or some other reason?

Austerity wasn’t caused by the crash, though.

All the more reason why Labour shouldn't post tweets taking the blame.

Contrary to legend, Deficts tend to fall under Labour governments and rise under Tory governments. Our Debt was about 65% of GDP (GDP 2.4tn) when Cameron came to power, peaked at 85% when GDP was and is now about 82% (GDP 2.8tn)

This - and if it's one thing Labour were guilty of was not defending this record against the Tories.

I think Labour had 3 surpluses too at one point.

I wish that Corbyn and the puerile student bell ends in momentum expended as much time and effort on fighting the Tories as they did slagging off Blair, Brown and Tom Watson, or anyone else who doesn’t express enough love for the glorious leader

It’s pathetic! Which is why the Labour Party are presently polling at 19%. Not a problem Blair ever had to deal with. The treacherous electable bastard

I wish that Corbyn and the puerile student bell ends in momentum spent as much time on fighting the Tories as they did slagging off Blair, Brown and Tom Watson

Does Corbyn spend much time slagging any of them off?

Do you need reminding of the voting record of Labour V Tories in the indicative votes?

Bet you love Tom Watson's made up twitter poll too?

outofbreath

Member

Austerity wasn’t caused by the crash, though.

All the more reason why Labour shouldn’t post tweets taking the blame.

When did that happen?

The gold sale cost us about £2bn spread over 3 years (critics tend to "overlook" that the assets bought with the funds from the sale also appreciated). And yet people still wail about it today and happily ignore other more recent bills, like the cost of corporation tax cuts brought in by Osborne (during "austerity" remember) which will cost £6bn per year by 2020. Or the £1.5bn spent on no-deal brexit planning so far. Or the £1bn bribe to the DUP. And so on... The cost to fix the probation service after the disastrous privatisation will certainly run higher, even after the previous half billion quid handout to CRCs

So what it is about this particular £2bn loss under a Labour government 20 years ago that draws so much more attention than ongoing, larger losses under a Tory one, I wonder? It's a mystery.

There are stats on the national statistics site about how much they’ve got back etc. I’ve never crunched all the numbers, but I think the above is broadly correct. RBS is close to being back to even too.

The main problem during the whole financial crisis was liquidity, all the institutions (banks) were worried about refinancing debt and so wouldn't lend to each other, which caused the whole system to grind to a halt. The object of concern, collateralized debt obligation (CDO) that had become suddenly toxic were untouchable because they potentially contained millions of sub prime mortgages. The irony being that the more the financial system panicked about them and slowed the economy, the more likely the sub prime debt would default. I read somewhere that the post 2008 long term default rate, of CDOs, was incredibly low; it was the fear of the unknown which collapsed the system. They were so complex, that you couldn't work out the real risk of any one CDO, hence they all became like radioactive waste overnight.

Good primer on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collateralized_debt_obligation

Because it's an easily repeatable story that plays to a simplistic narrative.

Sixth-form, common room level placard waver

I don’t know if you’ve noticed but the Labour Party has bigger fish to fry than slagging off his 3 times election-winning predecessors. If it could be bothered. Winning elections? Pfft!

But no... let’s slag them off, voice our support of Iran, and ignore the enormous elephant in the room

The key thing was Cameron and Osbourne had promised to maintain the same level of spending on public services in 2008; so there was cross party support at the time. Only after Nov 2008, did it become a 'Labour' issue.

But no… let’s slag them off, voice our support of Iran, and ignore the enormous elephant in the room

Support of Iran?

Wow.

Lets go headlong into War then - so Brexit won't matter...

We’re polling at 19% and sinking. What should we do?

Let’s slag off the only members of our party who’ve actually achieved anything!

Brilliant! I’ll get straight on it! The next election is in the bag!

Right... that’s that sorted. If anyone needs me, I’ll be on the allotment....

This made me laugh...

[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47971791743_03c35c043f_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47971791743_03c35c043f_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2g66YnD ]LibDems[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr

We’re polling at 19% and sinking. What should we do?

The polling is all over the shop. It's likely to move in and out of favour all of the time and depending on who does the polling.

A few weeks before the Brexit party reared they're ugly heads - Labour had pulled a decent lead.

And I suspect under a G.E matters would move back to stuff like the NHS and Policing which would swing the vote back.

Are you a member? (not as in a cock for clarity)

Be a member of the present Labour Party? are you serious? People are leaving in droves. I’d rather join the local Morris dancing troupe. They’ve more political credibility

I would join them actually, but so far they’ve singularly failed to release a press release slagging off the previous occupant of the club treasurers position for making the sticks too short and thus causing the great Cotswold Morris Ring debacle of 2007. As soon as they start addressing that great injustice then I’m in!

When did that happen?

In the OP:

Blair favoured deregulation of the banking industry – leading to one of the worst crashes in modern history. While spending on public services was higher, his legacy will ultimately be the austerity that followed his failure to stand up to big finance.

They're claiming the crash was due to Labour's deregulation, the crash lead to austerity.

The gold sale cost us about £2bn spread over 3 years

<Sigh> You obviously predicted a massive terrorist atrocity and invested heavily in gold at the time GB was selling? If you didn't how the hell could GB? It only cost us £2bn in hindsight, it wasn't known at the time.

corporation tax cuts brought in by Osborne (during “austerity” remember) which will cost £6bn per year by 2020.

It's a global market and countries all over the world are cutting corporation taxes. Loathe it or hate it if you don't have competitive tax rates companies move to places that do. In the industrial estate I work on three low profile medium sized firms have moved their head quarters abroad (Belgium I think) specifically because they get a better tax deal abroad. That's three firms that now pay zero UK corporation tax. You don't need to be a massive company to shift your HQ abroad. Move 3 or four employees and minibus a few directors to a few board meetings in the new country. It really is that simple. Setting tax in general is about finding the sweet spot on the laffer curve.

Can't really see how you can say it's cost 6bn because you don't know how much would have been raised if it hadn't happened. Could just as easily have saved £6bn if failing to do it had driven £12bn worth of corporation tax away, we'll never know.

It’s pathetic! Which is why the Labour Party are presently polling at 19%. Not a problem Blair ever had to deal with. The treacherous electable bastard

I think it's charming that you speak so approvingly of a man with so much blood on his hands.

I think it’s charming that you speak so approvingly of a man with so much blood on his hands.

You can argue Labour were responsible for the Uk's involvement in Iraq but they were *not* responsible for the 2007/2008 global Crash. It's not about approval or disapproval, that's just what happened.

You can argue Labour were responsible for the Uk’s involvement in Iraq but they were *not* responsible for the 2007/2008 global Crash. It’s not about approval or disapproval, that’s just what happened

I mostly agree, and think the Brown/ Darling response was the right one. Nevertheless, Labour encouraged the mood of deregulation.

As for Blair, I often wonder what gymnastics his supporters perform to justify lying to parliament in order to launch an illegal war. Presumably a few hundred thousand dead brown people is ok because of the minimum wage.

So by your logic, anyone who thinks Blair and Brown were infinitely preferable to another 13 years of Tory hegemony is a warmongering racist?

How’s your revision going for your A Levels? Getting close now.

We could well be living in a socialist utopia by the time you get your results

I mostly agree, and think the Brown/ Darling response was the right one. Nevertheless, Labour encouraged the mood of deregulation.

As for Blair, I often wonder what gymnastics his supporters perform to justify lying to parliament in order to launch an illegal war. Presumably a few hundred thousand dead brown people is ok because of the minimum wage.

Well there will be an election before long and you can continue to punish them for the war and for the mood of deregulation they encouraged. That's the nice thing about democracy **** up and you can be out of government for 11 years, perhaps even 16.

It's interesting that binners characterises Corbyn's supporters as juvenile while the man himself is characterized as senile. Ageism is prejudice, and says much.

Like what..?

Well there will be an election before long and you can continue to punish them for the war and for the mood of deregulation they encouraged

I've no idea what you're talking about: I voted Labour in the last election and will do so next time, because whatever you think of Corbyn, Iraq was absolutely nothing to do with him.

Finger on the pulse of the burning issues of 2019...

Like what..?

Amongst other things, that you're a blowhard who chooses to discriminate on the basis of age, because you're unable to make an argument without referring to people's innate personal characteristics. I strongly suspect that if you were doing the same on the basis of skin colour, you'd be shown the door.

Finger on the pulse of the burning issues of 2019…

You'd know all about those in your middle class enclave. Now, don't you have people to discriminate against?

I often wonder what gymnastics his supporters perform to justify lying to parliament in order to launch an illegal war.

I voted Labour in the last election and will do so next time, because whatever you think of Corbyn, Iraq was absolutely nothing to do with him.

I think you've answered your own question. 😀

I think you’ve answered your own question. 😀

You think that it's a stretch to not blame Corbyn for Iraq? The man who was prominently protesting against it? Err, ok.

You’d know all about those in your middle class enclave

Sick burn is sick.

He’s also not even partly responsible for the inherent problems caused by the Treaty of Versailles or the assignation of archduke Franz Ferdinand

He’s getting my vote!

"Thank you for your vote, comrade"

the assignation of archduke Frank Ferdinand

Secret appointments? I must've missed that bit in history lessons.

You think that it’s a stretch to not blame Corbyn for Iraq? The man who was prominently protesting against it? Err, ok.

I think the gymnastics you're performing to continue to vote Labour are pretty clear. You're shifting the responsibility from the party to one individual within the party as though the cabinet, MPs & party had zero responsibility for the decision and then convincing yourself that because the leader's changed the entire party no longer has any responsibility for Iraq. You're probably also telling yourself that people were mislead in spite of Robin Cook and Claire Short telling everyone *exactly* how it was in plain language. Somehow I think you don't go through those gymnastics when a party you don't like changes leader!

But we digress. This thread is about Labour's tweet about being to blame for the 2007/2008 Global Crash. (Which I'd guess you'd agree with up to a point, hence "Labour encouraged the mood of deregulation".) I'm saying whether that's true or not it's probably not something Labour should be shouting from the roof tops when an election could happen literally any time in the next 2 years.

Labour’s tweet

Momentum, shirley. Totally different organisations, apparently.

I think the gymnastics you’re performing to continue to vote Labour are pretty clear. You’re shifting the responsibility from the party to one individual within the party as though the cabinet, MPs & party had zero responsibility for the decision and then convincing yourself that because the leader’s changed the entire party no longer has any responsibility for Iraq.

So, in summary, you're telling us that Corbyn bears responsibility for Iraq because he's leader of the Labour party. If that's what you wish to believe, crack on.

Momentum, shirley. Totally different organisations, apparently.

Totally. 😀

In no way is it a totally transparent deflection technique to desperately try to stop people thinking that your staggeringly shit!

More abuse... it's a shame that you're so unpleasant.

Momentum, shirley. Totally different organisations, apparently.

If you're struggling, think of them as a sort of Labour equivalent to the ERG.

So, in summary, you’re telling us that Corbyn bears responsibility for Iraq because he’s leader of the Labour party. If that’s what you wish to believe, crack on.

Nope, if I was telling you that I'd have written it rather than writing something different. I'm saying that your post is a good example of the kind of mental gymnastics you mentioned. You've convinced yourself that Labour stopped being responsible for Iraq because they changed leader.

Trump was opposed to the Iraq War. The Republican party is still responsible for it even though Bush is gone and Trump has taken over.

Anyway I think we've explored this enough. It's miles off topic so I'll let you have the last word.

Anyway… IRAQ

😀

If taking the blame for the 2007/2008 global crash and austerity isn't a surefire vote winner, bringing up Iraq ought to hoover up votes like a Dyson on steroids...

You’ve convinced yourself that Labour stopped being responsible for Iraq because they changed leader.

No, I said that Corbyn was not responsible. Please don't create strawmen to support your flimsy argument.

And still the obsession with Corbyn, Blair, Brown et al continues. It reminds me of the take that vs east 17 teenage culture wars. Madness!

Although to be honest I’m a big fan of John McDonnell. He’s quite the comedian in real life, and an extremely sincere, open minded, pragmatic and adept politician. It’s a shame he doesn’t feel his health is up to the labour leadership.

You might need to remember that the Tories we’re constantly pushing for even more deregulation of financial services at the time. And which country started the rot?
The real issue in the UK is the cowtowing to the City and their short term view on what might, or might not be, best for the country as a whole.

Sssssshhhhhh.... the whole slaggging off Blair thing relies on you being wilfully blind to what the alternative was.

Because obviously the Tories would never have gone into Iraq and would have strictly regulated the banking industry

And they'd Have definitely done Sure Start, the minimum wage, built loads of schools and hospitals and loads more besides.

That’s why we hate Blair and Brown. We’d have been so much better off without them. The bastards! Standing in the way of the socialist revolution that Iain Duncan Smith wanted to usher in.

Anyway... I’ve got a sociology lecture to get to. If I get a B in this I can get in to study history and politics at Loughborough