Jordanian pilot – sensible debate thread

I believe in right and wrong and good and evil.
Not biblical evil, satan and such like but that there are good good men and woman and evil men and woman.
And you cannot fight evil with a strongly worded letter. You need good men and woman prepared to use violence in the name of whats right.

A dead terrorist and a dead pilot are not equal in my eyes.
It is not just the method of death that separates them but motive.

A celebrated american sheriff was at an awards ceremony when a woman noticed he was wearing his side arm.
“You expecting trouble sheriff”
“No mam, if I was expecting trouble I would have brought my rifle”

If all good men were hand wringers we would all be ****.

jimjam – Member
Islam is a component of it, but it’s not the very root of depravity. Wherever you have poor people living in a state of violent flux you will see violence. Whatever the predominant religion is, it will be manipulated or bent to suit the needs of those who want to carry out violent acts.

+1

Funny you used the word vacuum Woppit, that’s exactly what they sprung out of. Syria destroyed by civil war and Iraq destroyed by, you know, us.

@ jimjam

Before ISIS there was al Qaeda and the Taliban. Before that there was the Mujahedeen. All these organisations are inspired by the writings of their Prophet Poppet and his requirements of jihad against “the unbeliever”. With each successive sinkage to a deeper level of what I choose to call “depravity” – from the bombing of non-muslims to the bombing of their own kind to the shooting of women in stadiums meant for sport to beheadings to throat cuttings to throwing people off buildings to immolation – you will hear the shout “Allah U Akhbar”.

Religion.

jimjam – Member
If you’re so desperate to prove the point that ideas and ideologies can be eradicated through brute force and violence why don’t you list some, as opposed to flogging a dead horse re: Incas.

I was asked to provide reference etc so I did. Like I said the case of Incas perhaps is a total form of ideology wipe out while the rest might not be hence I used Incas as example.

Lifer – Member

Yes, they will shoot you or “rehabilitate” you if you decide to go against their prevailing ideology.

A North Korean talks about North Korea[/quote]

Yes, try to do it publicly see if that ideology gets wipe out.

For for spreading Christianity to N. Korea? Ya, do it opening see if that ideology get promoted.

Ideology is simply just an ideology. Without people promoting let’s see how far the brilliant ideology can go. Do you think ideology will simply jump out to brainwash the people? HHmmm?

A bit like saying guns kill is it not? If you don’t pull the trigger do you think the gun will jump up and shoot you? You are going to say remote control ghost now aren’t you? 😆

Similarly, if an ideology does not get promoted by the people how far do you think that ideology will progress? Hmmmm? Why do you think the Christians need to sneak their way back to N.Korea? Why not promote it openly hmmmm?

Yes, dead people can’t promote ideology.

🙄

Lifer – Member

Apologies for sidetracking the thread I just get pissed off with his constant baseless witterings.

You might be good in your arguments but you are simply too idealistic to be practical.

Mr Woppit – Member

@ jimjam

Before ISIS there was al Qaeda and the Taliban. Before that there was the Mujahedeen. All these organisations are inspired by the writings of their Prophet Poppet and his requirements of jihad against “the unbeliever”. With each successive sinkage to a deeper level of what I choose to call “depravity” – from the bombing of non-muslims to the bombing of their own kind to the shooting of women in stadiums meant for sport to beheadings to throat cuttings to throwing people off buildings to immolation – you will hear the shout “Allah U Akhbar”.

Religion.

What were Mohammed’s requirements of Jihad then Woppit?

Lifer – Member
Apologies for sidetracking the thread I just get pissed off with his constant baseless witterings.

Just ignore him, like the rest of us. 😉

What were Mohammed’s requirements of Jihad then Woppit?

Presumably you know how to use Google. Do your own homework.

Without wading through the entire thread, I assume it’s been raised that the pilot was probably killed in early Jan, meaning all bargaining for his life afterwards was completely pointless?

And I assume it been pointed out that Jordan didn’t release the female bomber in return for the Japanese journo, which is what IS wanted.

I also assume it’s been mentioned that the UK didn’t send Abu Qatada to Jordan because of their human rights record.

It’s a massively complicated circle of events where a lot of cultures and ideologies are not fitting too well together.

Mr Woppit – Member

@ jimjam

Before ISIS there was al Qaeda and the Taliban. Before that there was the Mujahedeen. All these organisations are inspired by the writings of their Prophet Poppet and his requirements of jihad against “the unbeliever”. With each successive sinkage to a deeper level of what I choose to call “depravity” – from the bombing of non-muslims to the bombing of their own kind to the shooting of women in stadiums meant for sport to beheadings to throat cuttings to throwing people off buildings to immolation – you will hear the shout “Allah U Akhbar”.

Religion.

Mr. Woppit you need to look a bit further back and understand who the Muhahadeen were.(Summarising) Freedom fighters led by Ahmad Shah Massoud, funded by the U.S to defeat the Russians, based on assurances by Thatcher and Reagan that they would recieve support to build a democratic Afghanistan if they succeeded.

Reagan and Thatcher reneged, leaving them at the mercy of Pakistani extremists (the taliban) leading to civil war. During the Afghan civil war the Taliban offered a truce to Massoud, he could lead the country if he inforced sharia law, he rejected this claiming he would rather die fighting for democracy.

It’s not an entirely dissimilar story to what is currently happening in Iraq.

chewkw – Member
Similarly, if an ideology does not get promoted by the people how far do you think that ideology will progress? Hmmmm? Why do you think the Christians need to sneak their way back to N.Korea? Why not promote it openly hmmmm? Yes, dead person(s) can’t promote ideology.

So you accept there are Christians in North Korea?

So

Weapon can kill off ideology

hasn’t occurred in Noth Korea, despite their best efforts.

Mr Woppit – Member

“What were Mohammed’s requirements of Jihad then Woppit?”

Presumably you know how to use Google. Do your own homework.

Sorry I thought you had something in mind when you wrote it, I’ll be back!

Curses! I agree with the Wopster! I hate it when that happens.

To say that this is nothing to do with Islam is preposterous, and is counter-productive as it immediately hobbles the discussion. It is everything to do with Islam.

The central tenet of the IS ideology is that the more liberal (everything’s relative Eh?) westernised form of Islam is actually a perversion of the faith. And that their hardline interpretation is the One True Path. So they regard Musilms who practice anything short of their zealotry, as as anti-Islamic as U.S. infidels.

What we’re dealing with is fascism. But it is specifically it is Islamic facsism

So to say that ‘it has nothing to do with Islam’ is just plain stupid! Any answers, or solutions’ surely have to come from within the Islamic community itself, surely?

Mr Woppit – Member

What were Mohammed’s requirements of Jihad then Woppit?

Presumably you know how to use Google. Do your own homework. [/quote]

I agree with Mr Woppit in this case.

Mr Woppit – Member

Lifer – Member
Apologies for sidetracking the thread I just get pissed off with his constant baseless witterings.

Just ignore him, like the rest of us. [/quote]

😆 He knows he agrees with me.

Lifer – Member

So you accept there are Christians in North Korea?

So

Weapon can kill off ideology

hasn’t occurred in Noth Korea, despite their best efforts. [/quote]

The original question was weapon cannot kill off ideology which I disagree.

In the case of N.Korea, that Christian ideology was wiped out in that land until it was re-introduced / sneaked in again.

This is very different from the fact that it cannot be wiped out or destroy by weapon. 🙄

edit: if you lot agree with Mr Woppit and Mr Woppit agrees with me vice versa does that mean you lot now agree with me? Therefore, I am right throughout … 😆

“Fight for the sake of Allah those that fight against you, but do not attack them first. Allah does not love the aggressors” (2:191)

“kindle a fire for war, Allah extinguishers it. They strive to create disorder in the earth, and Allah loves not those who create disorder” (28:78)

chewkw – Member

In the case of N.Korea, that Christian ideology was wiped out in that land

Not going to hold my breathe, but any evidence that it was wiped out?

binners – Member
Curses! I agree with the Wopster! I hate it when that happens.

To say that this is nothing to do with Islam is preposterous, and is counter-productive as it immediately hobbles the discussion. It is everything to do with Islam.

The central tenet of the IS ideology is that the more liberal (everything’s relative Eh?) westernised form of Islam is actually a perversion of the faith. And that their hardline interpretation is the One True Path. So they regard Musilms who practice anything short of their zealotry, as as anti-Islamic as U.S. infidels.

What we’re dealing with is fascism. But it is specifically it is Islamic facsism

So to say that ‘it has nothing to do with Islam’ is just plain stupid! Any answers, or solutions’ surely have to come from within the Islamic community itself, surely?

There is a shitload of finance behind IS, take away the finance and IS crumble.

I agree it’s fascism, I disagree it’s particularly Islamic fundamentally though(it is a tool being used aye, but it’s not fundamental to destoying the ideology), as with everything in the world, power, control and money take centre stage.

If you want to defeat them, follow the money and cut that short, but there will be so many dodgy fingers in that pie I doubt it’s likely.

It is about religion at its worst and at this moment in time in Iraq that religion happens to be Islam that is being used in this way. It is not fundentally due to Islam itself as I see it no differently from any other religion.
It’s people choosing to use its influence to the gain.

Something that has happened since the start of time.
Proportioning any blame to Islam risks isolating good people of that faith and even driving angry young men towards twisted ideology.

To me its religion at its worst being manipulated by bad people.

Agreed. It’s all about power and control. Religion is just a means to an end. But you’re not going to make any progress by simply saying it’s nothing to do with it. It is!

chip – Member
It is about religion at its worst and at this moment in time in Iraq that religion happens to be Islam that is being used in this way. It is not fundentally due to Islam as I see it no differently from any religion.
It m

It’s happening in the islamic world, so there’s obviously going to be an islamic slant to it, but really, that’s just syptomatic of the locale. Personally, I think it’s all just wider power games(which is probably a thread all on it’s own).

binners – Member
Agreed. It’s all about power and control. Religion is just a means to an end. But you’re not going to make any progress by simply saying it’s nothing to do with it. It is!

it’s is aye, but it’s not where the main focus should be or where a solution will come from.

Lifer – Member

chewkw – Member
In the case of N.Korea, that Christian ideology was wiped out in that land

Not going to hold my breathe, but any evidence that it was wiped out? [/quote]

Ya, your BBC sop opera here …

“But many Christian analysts believe that churches in North Korea are merely propaganda fronts aimed primarily at appeasing a foreign audience. ” (BBC, ya, I know you will disagree etc …)

Oh ya … Christianity was already in N. Korea since 1781 (something like that) but somehow never taken off big time I wonder why.

Religion is the tool, you can’t blame a tool but those who wield it.

I don’t disagree with that article at all, but it doesn’t for a moment suggest that Christianity ‘was wiped out in that land’.

@chip, well said (right / wrong post)

@pimpmaster, yes it was noted earlier that Jordan had proof (blog post from a known IS member) that the pilot was burnt to death at the start of Jan. I don’t think Abu Qatada was mentioned, there we had a situation where he might be tried based on evidence obtained through torture. Until we could have a legally binding assurance that that wouldn’t happen and we changed our law he was able to stay. Jordan has had a chequered human rights record and was recently critisied as it will not accept Palastinain refugees from Syria but we (you) are trying to judge them by our liberal Western standards and the Middle East doesn’t work on that basis.

What on earth prompts anyone on here to actively seek out a video they know will show another human, being burnt alive?
You’ll be knitting next to the gallows next.

My thoughts exactly!

Knitting or catching?

Lifer – Member

I don’t disagree with that article at all, but it doesn’t for a moment suggest that Christianity ‘was wiped out in that land’.

If that is not a wipe out I don’t know what is.

Anyway, need to work now or I would be kicked in the backside … arrghhh … someone is till wrong on the interweb … arrghhh … 😆

Will debate later …

quick edit:

chip – Member

Religion is the tool, you can’t blame a tool but those who wield it.

There you go Lifer … ^^^. Get rid of the people and you are left with a book.

someone is till wrong on the interweb

Not for long if you’ll go and do some work 😉

Wipe out means ceased to exist.

There is no evidence in that article that Christianity, or other ideologies, have ceased to exist in North Korea. It says the churches are just propaganda, but my previous link makes it clear that it is practised in private anyway, so churches are inconsequential to that.

chewkw – Member

“chip – Member
Religion is the tool, you can’t blame a tool but those who wield it.”

There you go Lifer … ^^^. Get rid of the people and you are left with a book.

Eh? What does that mean? Who’s been got rid of?

What were the terror tactics the Spanish used, duckman? And how is that relevant to fighting IS

I didn’t say they did…quote away though,Chewkw has obviously touched a raw nerve.

Not at all, I just (mis)read a cropped quote on page 3 rather than your full post on page 2, apologies.

And was in full swing 😳

ISIS/ISIL or whatever they’re called this week are sub human, I suggest the authorities treat them as such.

I’m happy for this government (frankly any government will do) to flatten the regions ISIL/ISIS control, good riddance to a region that is by and large a shithole.

….and aid workers, contractors, journalists etc need to stop going over there!….don’t put yourself in the firing line when this group of sadistic bastards are in charge.

An absence of foreigners in their country means they’ll have to turn their attention to their own people….and frankly I couldn’t care less if they want to butcher each other.

deviant – Member

I’m happy for this government (frankly any government will do) to flatten the regions ISIL/ISIS control, good riddance to a region that is by and large a shithole.

Nice to you see you promoting genocide. Or you just classing everyone in IS controlled areas as an enemy combatant?

Not fussed either way, the region needs to be taken back to square one and start again….it’s beyond help.

If you want a slightly more ‘humane’ way of doing it just abandon the region economically, no aid, no trade, pull up the drawbridge and watch the area wither away slowly instead….agree with the media blackout idea too, don’t mention them, ban their propaganda from Twitter, don’t show pictures or videos etc, make the region and representatives from the organisation ‘persona non grata’….they’d have too much to sort out at home to worry about ‘the west’ (hopefully) and would certainly have to rethink their approach to publicising their campaign if they effectively didn’t have any publicity any more.

Either way, f##k ’em.

An absence of foreigners in their country means they’ll have to turn their attention to their own people….and frankly I couldn’t care less if they want to butcher each other.

@deviant I agree with your general sentiment up until this last point. ISIL’s ideas of foreigners includes Yazardis, Kurds, Chritians and Shia Muslims. We cannot allow all that slaughter and in any case if they ever gained control they would undoubtedly attack the West and seek to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. The Arabs invaded Europe and got as far as Tours in central France before being repelled. I have no doubt ISIS would dream of a re-run.

@deviant, if we pulled out the Russians and Chineese would step in to fill the economic void and gain political influence there. Not really constructive for the West.

deviant – Member
Not fussed either way, the region needs to be taken back to square one and start again….it’s beyond help.

If you want a slightly more ‘humane’ way of doing it just abandon the region economically, no aid, no trade, pull up the drawbridge and watch the area wither away slowly instead….agree with the media blackout idea too, don’t mention them, ban their propaganda from Twitter, don’t show pictures or videos etc, make the region and representatives from the organisation ‘persona non grata’….they’d have too much to sort out at home to worry about ‘the west’ (hopefully) and would certainly have to rethink their approach to publicising their campaign if they effectively didn’t have any publicity any more.

Either way, f##k ’em.right ye are adolf.

An absence of foreigners in their country means they’ll have to turn their attention to their own people….and frankly I couldn’t care less if they want to butcher each other.

The problem there is these areas are not wholly submitted to IS / Sharia law. Most living there are innocents in a terrible place. Do you abandon them too?

There’s also the political vacuum that destroying them would create. It’s a holy hotpot. There would be massive scraps to fill it.

jambalaya – Member

@deviant, if we pulled out the Russians and Chineese would step in to fill the economic void and gain political influence there. Not really constructive for the West.

and we wonder why the place is a shit storm! 😆

deviant – Member

Not fussed either way, the region needs to be taken back to square one and start again….it’s beyond help.

If you want a slightly more ‘humane’ way of doing it just abandon the region economically, no aid, no trade, pull up the drawbridge and watch the area wither away slowly instead….agree with the media blackout idea too, don’t mention them, ban their propaganda from Twitter, don’t show pictures or videos etc, make the region and representatives from the organisation ‘persona non grata’….they’d have too much to sort out at home to worry about ‘the west’ (hopefully) and would certainly have to rethink their approach to publicising their campaign if they effectively didn’t have any publicity any more.

Either way, f##k ’em.

The only part of that entire post I agree with is **** em. But the rest of your post and the one before is just staggeringly stupid/ignorant and shows a complete lack of understanding of how the world works. You might as well have written

deviant – Member

I saw these guys on the news, the news said they are bad so I don’t like em. Let’s drop bombs on them. My mate Barry down the pub knows some stuff, he says we should nuke the whole middle east and take their stuff.

f##k ’em. [/quote]