Jordanian pilot – sensible debate thread

oldmanmtb – Member

We have some fairly recent historical parallels that can be useful, the indo china and Vietnam wars …

Ya, but the US was fighting a proxy war there with China and Russia. i.e. the west was fighting proper army there. Even in Korea war who do you think supply all the army?

jimjam – Member

What needs to be done? Educate the public how this group has come about, admit shortcomings/blame in that respect. Arrest, try and convict as many people as possible who were involved in the highly illegal invasion of Iraq which killed untold hundreds of thousands of their citizens and destabilized the region allowing IS to flourish.

Nope. That’s like crying over spilled milk again.

Withdraw all support for Israel and publicly denounce their wholesale slaughter of Palestinians. Support mmore moderate Islamic nations to combat IS themselves. Make genuine efforts to integrate Muslims into western European society.

Nope. You will only complicate matters. Leave them out.

Will any of this happen? Will it f***. We have far too much tied up the region.

This will not happen because you are being unrealistic. I think you are also contradicting yourself here.

Alpha1653

it’s not the weaponry and foot soldiers you need to destroy, it’s the idea behind it and that’s a whole different ball game…

Exactly. You can’t kill an ideology with bullets and bombs.

chewkw

Nope. That’s like crying over spilled milk again.

Nope. That would be a step towards undermining their support in the west. Britain and the U.S can continue to try and bomb and kill radical Islamic groups until the cows come home. All they’ll do is create more radical Islamic groups. Unless you round up every muslim on the planet and put them in a gas chamber there will still be “terrorists” as long as the west sticks it’s nose in their business in order to protect their oil supplies.

Nope. You will only complicate matters. Leave them out.

You can’t leave them out because they are pivotal to western interference in the region.

jimjam – Member

Nope. That would be a step towards undermining their support in the west. Britain and the U.S can continue to try and bomb and kill radical Islamic groups until the cows come home. All they’ll do is create more radical Islamic groups. Unless you round up every muslim on the planet and put them in a gas chamber there will still be “terrorists” as long as the west sticks it’s nose in their business in order to protect their oil supplies.

Nope. That does not guarantee anything at all apart from satisfying a few people.

You can’t leave them out because they are pivotal to western interference in the region.

If the west withdraw support to Israel what will happen to the Israeli people?

Make genuine efforts to integrate Muslims into western European society.

The efforts is on their part to integrate with Western European society rather than the other way round. If you move to middle east you need to integrate into their society rather than the other way round. They might tolerate you to some extend but fundamentally you have not much say whatsoever in their way of life. Enter Rome do as the Romans.

jimjam – Member
Exactly. You can’t kill an ideology with bullets and bombs.

Yes, you can.

Refer to history.

If the west withdraw support to Israel what will happen to Israeli people?

Well they might stop slaughtering Palestinians with impunity and raising tensions in the area.

Nope. That does not guarantee anything at all apart from satisfying a few people.

Nothing is guaranteed except that military involvement in that region just breeds more violence and war. The U.S and Britain created Al-Queda. They created IS. They can keep fighting or they can withdraw.

Yes, you can.

Refer to history.

History is a pretty long time. Where shall I start? I suppose here will do.

jimjam – Member
Well they might stop slaughtering Palestinians with impunity and raising tensions in the area.

Or Israel will be opened to slaughter by others.

Nothing is guaranteed except that military involvement in that region just breeds more violence and war. The U.S and Britain created Al-Queda. They created IS. They can keep fighting or they can withdraw.

I bet they realised that but then they have already created the monsters so who else are capable to deal with the monsters now? IMO, they created the monsters then they have to deal with the monsters because they can.

chewkw .

Or Israel will be opened to slaughter by others.

Would you throw rocks at your neighbours house if you knew he had an AK-47?

they created the monsters then they have to deal with the monsters because they can.

Yes but creating more monsters isn’t “dealing” with them. There’s an old adage, when you are in a hole, stop digging.

jimjam – Member
Would you throw rocks at your neighbours house if you knew he had an AK-47?

Therefore, you are advocating the slaughter of the entire population of Israel?

Yes but creating more monsters isn’t “dealing” with them.

Hence, they have to involve now to deal with the mess they created in the first place before it grows even larger. If they still don’t act the monsters will consume everyone.

chewkw – Member
“Exactly. You can’t kill an ideology with bullets and bombs.”

Yes, you can.

Refer to history.

Can you reference something that supports that supposition, please? For once.

chewkw

Therefore, you are advocating the slaughter of the entire population of Israel?

No I think you picked me up wrong there. I was implying that Israel has some of the most advanced weapons in the world and is widely believed to have nuclear weapons. Considering Israel has frequently shown that it has no qualms about indiscriminate slaughter of whole populations to defend itself, any nation state attacking them would be inviting genocide upon themselves. You are the Arab state, throwing rocks at your neighbours window, your neighbour is Israel who will blow your head off with an AK-47 before you try.

If they still don’t act the monsters will consume everyone.

No, they’ll just become like many other nation states that weren’t set up by western governments.

Lifer – Member
Can you reference something that supports that supposition, please? For once.

The Incas …

jimjam – Member

No I think you picked me up wrong there. I was implying that Israel has some of the most advanced weapons in the world and is widely believed to have nuclear weapons. Considering Israel has frequently shown that it has no qualms about indiscriminate slaughter of whole populations to defend itself, any nation state attacking them would be inviting genocide upon themselves.

Are you saying that let Israel defend themselves?
Well, I assume they will use their weapons if they under attack so are they wrong if they defend themselves when they perceived themselves to be under attack? Bear in mind, there is no one now to prevent them from using their weapons by the way.

That wasn’t bombs or bullets, swords or stones, that was smallpox.

Nor was it a struggle of ideologies.

Lifer – Member

That wasn’t bombs or bullets, swords or stones, that was smallpox.

Nor was it a struggle of ideologies.

That depends on how you interpret the demise of the Incas. You might even called it historical biological weapon. I am sure the Spanish weapons played a part in their demise. If the Spanish were not there then they would not have contracted smallpox so why are they there? Something to do with Eldorado is it not? The bottom line is that the Spanish were there and they gain the upper hand with western weapons such as cannon and guns.

Now, another way of achieving their dream of Eldorado was to introduce them another form of belief is it not? To control the people easier which eventually killed of their Incas’ belief entirely.

Another example would even be the pagan ideology in the middle east which was completely destroyed over time. I am sure many were forced or face the sword.

In a stand up fight against a western army IS wouldn’t stand a chance – assymmetric warfare doesn’t work that way though.

I really really don’t want to see a person burned alive in a cage – i,m curious why anyone on here would want to?

I strongly suggest anyone commenting on this thread takes the time to watch Bitter Lake…

Failing that, here is a summary:

Al-Qaeda and ISIS are based on wahhabism, which has been actively encouraged and exported by Western allies Saudi Arabia (you know, the ones we drop our flags for)

Expanding on Bitter Lake:

If you do a bit more research into Saudi links to the arms industry, a good chunk of the media and indeed western intelligence services you’ll see that the alliance goes far beyond just oil.

futon river crossing – Member
In a stand up fight against a western army IS wouldn’t stand a chance – assymmetric warfare doesn’t work that way though.

I agree, especially when there is no forest or support from neighbouring country with billions population.

I really really don’t want to see a person burned alive in a cage – i,m curious why anyone on here would want to?

Perhaps they are curious?

jivehoneyjive – Member

If you do a bit more research into Saudi links to the arms industry, a good chunk of the media and indeed western intelligence services you’ll see that the alliance goes far beyond just oil.

Of course everyone knows that.

Put it this way would you prefer to have a relationship with the leader of a kingdom that ensures certainty or civilian leader that changes constantly with uncertainty? The latter is simply hard work. Also not forgetting the fact that there are other influences in the region too back up by other superpower(s). What better way to influence the leader of a kingdom in order to defeat the other superpowers eh. Unfortunately, the leader of the kingdom, believing own hype, has started exert his own ideology on the “world” only to find themselves fighting with their own “whiter than white” ideology from their own people.

The example of the Spanish in Latin America must come from an edited post? They are a good example as the dominant group at the time used terror tactics to control their subjects. The Spanish,with their seemingly benign God were welcomed.( yes I know it ended badly) Another problem with IS is that it seems to think its borders extend to include parts of Spain,Italy and India. Can’t really let that happen,can we?

It’s incredible that this is happening in the 21st Century.
Incredibly sad.

I guess the long term goal should be energy self sufficiency so we don’t rely on anything from the Middle East.

Then they’ll just be left to their own devices like Africa.

So sad.

The way to stop it would be to switch the internet off, and stop news reporting. Once you remove their audience, what they are doing becomes pointless.

Funkydunc I don’t think the is videos are primarily aimed at the west they are intended for more local impact.

To fight IS we should be motivating and enabling their local opponents particularly the Kurds and Jordanians and rather than constantly beheading the dragon cut out it’s Saudi Arabian heart and wallet .

I think Yunki needs to have a word with himself for starting the other topic.

What a barbaric way to kill someone. War is war but to do such things to captured unarmed combatants is wrong. Very wrong.

hora

I think Yunki needs to have a word with himself for starting the other topic.

What a barbaric way to kill someone. War is war but to do such things to captured unarmed combatants is wrong. Very wrong.

It’s a calculated tactic though Hora. Little more.

I agree it’s absolutely horrific, but that’s what they are aiming for. I’d say the aftermath of a apache attack helicopter’s canon isn’t any more pleasant or civilized but people in middle eastern war zones have probably seen that plenty of times.

They are creating these videos as a rallying call to those who would join/support them, an intimidation tactic against those they will fight or seek to control and as a direct affront to their enemies sensibilities.

Agree

I wonder what the long game or tactic is here though. Obviously they want an “Islamic State”, but by creating this media frenzy they must surely realise they run a very real risk of drawing the US and UK into war with them.

Do they need this propaganda to get recruits? I can’t imagine they do. Do they need to be decapitating people on twitter to intimidate and control people in their controlled areas? Do they actually need the internet for that?

It strikes me that these videos real aim is to stoke up a media frenzy over here to fast track military involvement over there. Do they really want to martyr themselves? Or do their Saudi sponsors want to reinforce their status as a stable dependable source of oil for the west ?

It strikes me that these videos real aim is to stoke up a media frenzy over here to fast track military involvement over there.

Jumping two leaps ahead here but surely the UK/US commanders and Politicians are thinking it’d be total war if they went over- no surrender and capture if caught by the ISIL and anyone caught would/could prove to be a hard captor? It’d be a nightmare to have boots on the ground as Journalists would follow.

Special forces and advisors means they can keep a lid on any related issues?

It certainly seems they have either an ulterior motive,or they have dropped the ball with this one. The anger has,certainly in the short term, shifted away from the Jordanian rulers to them. They have also had other groups condemn the method of killing. If reports are true and the female was hanged this morning,then the propaganda coup of being a protector of women is also lost as well.(Al Q used to demand the release of female terrorists as a matter of importance)

What on earth prompts anyone on here to actively seek out a video they know will show another human, being burnt alive?
You’ll be knitting next to the gallows next.

Who says everybody has? I have seen the stills in the papers,but there is no way I will be adding to those animals web traffic.And I can’t knit..And that was 200 hundred years ago,so stupid comparison.

hora

Jumping two leaps ahead here but surely the UK/US commanders and Politicians are thinking it’d be total war if they went over- no surrender and capture if caught by the ISIL and anyone caught would/could prove to be a hard captor? It’d be a nightmare to have boots on the ground as Journalists would follow.

Special forces and advisors means they can keep a lid on any related issues?

The way a modern army engages a guerrilla force means taking P.O.W.s isn’t a concern. Call in an airstrike, or fire a HEDP into whatever building or vehicle they are taking cover in. Round up who ever is left alive, what’s left of them.

It seems that all IS need is the ability to move, and an iphone and they draw out any form of war for decades regardless of who they are fighting.

hora – Member 
I think Yunki needs to have a word with himself for starting the other topic.

He’s either an attention whore or he has genuine issues

Or perhaps to plagiarise “he’s like an idiot savant, without the savant bit”

Who says everybody has?

I didn’t.

And that was 200 hundred years ago,so stupid comparison

Is there a time limit to highlighting the goulish nature of some people?

They had ti stand by their word. As I said, they didn’t have any choice once the pilot was burned.

Its not that many centuries ago that fundamental Christians were burning each other alive.

Islam is 600 years (?) younger than Christianity. Is this just some sort of horrific stage of evolution that Abrahamic religions go through?

The ultimate long-term solution is to deal with the ignorance and poverty that create the environment for these nutters to prosper. I have no idea what the short and medium term solutions to get there would be.

And while I understand the possible curiosity to see one of their videos, common sense surely tells you it will be a horrific watch and not to do it?

duckman – Member

The example of the Spanish in Latin America must come from an edited post? They are a good example as the dominant group at the time used terror tactics to control their subjects.

Not edited. Also happened to other parts of the world but not as extensive as those in S.America.

MoreCashThanDash – Member

…

I have no idea what the short and medium term solutions to get there would be.

And while I understand the possible curiosity to see one of their videos, common sense surely tells you it will be a horrific watch and not to do it?

The short to medium term solutions is to contain the problem to specific regions. Nothing can be done until they run out of steam coz there are only so many people that can intimidate.

Not seen the video whatsoever infact none of all the killings unless they are on youtube. However, youtube has blocked most of the horrific stuff nowadays so I am not risking my pooter just to search for them in case there are malwares embedded.

What I always wonder is the thought of the victims during their dying moment as some were not swift and also thought of the executioner.

I found the reference after I had posted Chewkw.

MoreCashThanDash

And while I understand the possible curiosity to see one of their videos, common sense surely tells you it will be a horrific watch and not to do it?

I’ve not sought out or seen any of the IS execution videos, but I did seek out the videos of Nick Berg and Ken Bigley being executed. It was a combination of morbid curiosity, along with a weird sense of almost guilt. I was deeply opposed to that war and the bullshit way the news media and government lied to us. I felt that in some sense I owed it to the guys who died to watch their last moments as our governments had gotten them into it. I didn’t want to turn away from the reality of what happened to them.

It stuck with me for months afterward, and still does but I’m not sorry I watched. I can understand someone wanting to see the videos.

They’re master propagandists. Goebbels would have to take his hat off to this lot. And it works. They rule through fear. Why do you think the Iraqi army all ran off? Do you blame them? Would you hang around? See what happened if they got hold of you.

Doesn’t seem to bother the Peshmerga…

The thing about IS and their brutality is that it simply makes no sense to us. Just eighteen months ago, the US was in the process of withdrawing from Iraq and everyone – myself included – was suggesting that the Arab Spring in the middle east was a force of change for good and that sooner or later everything would be better so long as the west stopped dropping bombs.

What happened next seems nihilistic in the extreme to me. While IS has publicly stated that it aims to restore a Caliphate to the middle east and unite Muslims, members of the organisation are behaving in a publicly depraved way that is offensive to the majority of Muslims. Truly, I don’t know what happens next…we kidded ourselves that the promise of democracy and trinkets could pacify population that had hitherto been spoonfed fanaticism (eg post nazi Germany and post Imperial Japan). I don’t believe that bombing anyone into submission is the answer, yet those who’ve committed atrocious acts need to be brought to account.

But I can’t help feeling that the seeds were sown by the west during the occupation of Iraq.

chewkw – Member

“Lifer – Member

That wasn’t bombs or bullets, swords or stones, that was smallpox.

Nor was it a struggle of ideologies.”

That depends on how you interpret the demise of the Incas. You might even called it historical biological weapon. I am sure the Spanish weapons played a part in their demise. If the Spanish were not there then they would not have contracted smallpox so why are they there? Something to do with Eldorado is it not? The bottom line is that the Spanish were there and they gain the upper hand with western weapons such as cannon and guns.

Now, another way of achieving their dream of Eldorado was to introduce them another form of belief is it not? To control the people easier which eventually killed of their Incas’ belief entirely.

Maybe you should read up on it before using it to back up you assertion. Smallpox reached the Incas before the Spanish. Also where the hell did you get your El Dorado theory from? The BBC soap?

The Spanish would also have been massacred if they didn’t have help from tens of thousands of native allies who were the Incan’s enemies. Superiority of arms is a red herring.

Another example would even be the pagan ideology in the middle east which was completely destroyed over time. I am sure many were forced or face the sword.

Oh, if you’re sure. You know, with your obvious grasp of history you’ve already shown.

What were the terror tactics the Spanish used, duckman? And how is that relevant to fighting IS?

The Incas are not similar in anyway. It was a 40 year war of genocide against a population weakened by disease with the purpose of conquest.

If Jordan hung 2 people this morning, that is equally as reprehensible as what IS just did.

If they stated that they would unless they got the pilot back then they left themselves no option.