Jesus Christ

🙂

I can’t prove there is a God but it doesn’t automatically stand to reason that there isn’t.

The reverse is true also, of course. So then you’re left at looking at which option seems most likely. Science, evolution, chemistry; or a higher power. Both of which raise further questions. For instance:

It seems unlikely that the universe just popped into being, and our human brains have difficulties with concepts like ‘it was always there’, so we conclude that a god must have made it. That ties up all the loose ends except, who made god? Well, either he just popped into being, or he’s always been there… hang on, haven’t we’ve heard this before somewhere?

I genuinely don’t understand the logic in using the concept of “god” to neatly explain a complex universe, and then readily accepting exactly the same ‘creation’ concepts that we had problems with a moment ago in order to explain god.

I can’t prove there is a God but it doesn’t automatically stand to reason that there isn’t.

If you want to assert that something exists it is reasonable to ask you for verifiable proof that what you assert actually exists. You cannot provide this so you have to say things like the above and talk about faith
EDIT: I agree with cougar even after asserting god the question remains unanswered ..who made god and at least we know we are here and have a fairly good explantion [ better than creationism] for us being the something from nothing rather than god. Factor in all religious people feel like you

I don’t treat my faith as an “excuse” at all. To me it feels very tangible, if difficult to describe. It helps me through my day,

Yet most of them are wrong as they belong to another religion. Probability is certainly not in your favour hence your need for faith

The other thing with that of course is, if you can neither prove nor disprove god, then there must be a reason for that concept to even cross your mind. I can’t disprove that there are tiny invisible unicorns living in my skirting board, but that doesn’t immediately give me cause to think that there might be.

Now, if I started to find little pink droppings around the edges of my walls, or my Cheerios started mysteriously disappearing from the cupboard (and assuming that unicorns like Cheerios; they’re mysterious creatures so who am I to judge) then I might start to entertain the idea. Otherwise, it’s a nonsensical conclusion to draw.

In the case of god, the only compelling reason to believe in god is because other people tell us to. It’s a man-made concept, dating back to a time when people thought that the rain was god crying (and presumably snow was really concerning). Now, if it was a conclusion you’ve arrived at independently, that would make far more sense to me.

Gods have existed as a concept far longer than what we recognise as Christianity today. Back in ancient times there were dozens of the buggers. Assuming for a moment that the ‘higher power’ theory holds water; what’s to say that there aren’t multiple gods all controlling different things? Why does no-one believe in a thunder god and a rain god and a cheese god? Because it’s not fashionable?!

Incidentally, just so we’re clear:

I’m not trolling, I’m really not. My natural writing style might be a little … irreverent, but I’m genuinely posing questions because I genuinely just do not understand.

After eight pages, I’m not wholly sure that I’m much nearer either.

Higgo – Member
Personal insults aimed at forum members are bad, whether it’s to do with wheel size, ‘cheeky’, support of football generally, support of specific football team, number of gears, ownership of a road bike etc etc.

… hearing the difference in directional hi-fi cabling…

I think IanB does a good job of showing that faith in God can and should coexist with thoughtful consideration of evidence . Like him I can see evidence of God everywhere not least in my own life. This doesn’t make me irrational. I’m not ignoring the evidence, I just see it in a different conceptual framework. If you start with the presupposition that God does not exist, then faith in God does seems silly. But if God does exist then it is perfectly reasonable that He should reveal Himself as He has in the Bible.

How does god reveal himself?

If you start with the presupposition that God does not exist, then faith in God does seems silly.

Without the believers telling you otherwise, that is the default starting point, yes.

if God does exist then it is perfectly reasonable that He should reveal Himself as He has in the Bible.

You know, no offence and all, but there’s so much wrong with that statement that I’m having trouble knowing where to start. Let’s go with this: assuming god exists, do you believe that the bible’s description of god’s interaction with his people is rational and sensible? That if you were an omniscient, omnipresent diety, that’s how you’d conduct yourself?

Let me put it another way. If a bloke came down off a big mountain today, slightly singed, with a badly carved stone tablet under his arm, claiming that god had spoken to him and laid out these rules for life, would you believe him?

Assuming that the answer here is “no”, why does the fact that it happened 2000 years ago and the story was passed down verbally through the generations until it hit the literate (assuming it happened at all), why does that suddenly have more credence?

For it to be “perfectly reasonable” for god to reveal himself as per the bible, it should be equally reasonable to expect it to happen again. If you’re going to believe the bible, there’s no reason not to answer “yes” to that question.

But if God does exist then it is perfectly reasonable that He should reveal Himself as He has in the Bible.

Yes that historically accurate document – you OK with creationism , the age of the earth, the age people lived to ?

faith in God can and should coexist with thoughtful consideration of evidence . Like him I can see evidence of God everywhere not least in my own life.

Do you see evidence of god in children starving to death in christian africa or do you pick more comforting things? Do you see god at work in the spiders that bite their prey, paralyse them, lay their eggs inside them, and let the young eat their way out/ Perhaps you see it in parasites. Ye sbeauty everywhere innit

This doesn’t make me irrational. I’m not ignoring the evidence

You are and you call this ignorance faith. I dont have faith in evolution I have evidence. You can alter my mind/opinion /view with other evidence. Your opinion cannot be altered by anything can it?

Apropos of nothing,

Isn’t it strange how UFOs always abduct farmers from the middle of 100 acres of land, and stick probes up the bottoms of people who live on their own or in their mum’s basement, rather than say landing in the middle of Trafalgar Square one day and going “hi there, we’re from Galaga 7!” (or I suppose, “peep pook grrsquish qlag” if they’ve not mastered the language yet)?

[frothing at the mouth]
This to me is conclusive proof of UFO’s as they understand plausible deniability…imagine if it was someone credible saying this like say a celebrity or a reality tv winner or we had actuall proof of it ..see too clever to get caught so it must be real …eh think about that eh well go on just think you close minded fool. 😯 😉
[/frothing at the mouth]

barnsleymitch has given up cruising for a bruising, then…

… hearing the difference in directional hi-fi cabling…

Ah, right; faith in something that has no scientific proof of any ‘benefits’ whatsoever.

barnsleymitch has given up cruising for a bruising, then…

He’d get you in a headlock until you cried like a little girl and wet your pants.

infradig – Member
perfectly reasonable that He should reveal Himself as He has in the Bible.

I got arrested for doing that, not in a book but a High street.

If the one almighty creator can get away with it, surely that means it’s not a sin…I want my £70 fine back.

Double bloody standards that is, sod all to do with faith or religion.

And what about this Eve being made from Adam rubbish. What sort of fool would design something that leaked every month and cause inconvenience to men, other than Manitou.

it wasn’t my intent to try to change any minds on here just to give an account what Christians believe. I understand it does sound foolish to most. there’s not a lot of point in continuing to go back and forth questioning each others intellect and reason; we are arguing from two entirely different perspectives. that’s ok, I have no ill feelings but it seems like these sorts of discussions bring out the worst in folks so I’m going to end my participation here. If anyone has any genuine questions about Christianity and is not just interested lambasting it email me offline.

Infradig summed it up brilliantly on page 6:

Logic or reason will never convince a person to become a Christian. It takes a work of God to change a man’s heart. The most compelling argument for Christianity is the changed life of a Christian. I have seen the abundant kindness and transforming power of Jesus Christ in my own life. I don’t need more convincing than that.

Are those that don’t believe in God but who demand evidence of Him expecting to find something that they could comprehend? When I consider the scale of the universe, the majesty and glory of it and how small I appear on the face of it, together with the improbability of our existence on this planet, I conclude that there is a huge amount that I don’t understand and most likely never will.

But the universe is still there, and it has an origin. The presumption that the closer we get to the origin of the universe the closer we get to either understanding God or proving He is or isn’t there doesn’t seem particularly logical to me. I’m unlikely to be able to get my head around it anyway, never mind explain it to someone else. Not only that, it misses the point.

I look to what is written in the Bible to try and understand what it’s telling me. I’m not looking at it for scientific guidance, more spiritual guidance. Some I understand and much I don’t. Science has revealed many things that the Bible was ignorant of, yet I still see God in the things we understand as well as the things we don’t.

Ian

expecting to find something that they could comprehend?

No i am prepared to worship something I dont understand or comprehend anything else would be foolish right?

That’s beautifully written Ian.
It’s nice to see that this thread is actually mostly reasoned debate, makes quite a change.

I consider it bias towards waffles.

And TBH i was deeply offended that my offering’s of toast were mostly ignored.

I’m hurt and disappointed.
Had a pot of tea and some coffee on the go too. 🙁

Elfinsafety – Member

… hearing the difference in directional hi-fi cabling…

Ah, right; faith in something that has no scientific proof of any ‘benefits’ whatsoever.

barnsleymitch has given up cruising for a bruising, then…

He’d get you in a headlock until you cried like a little girl and wet your pants.

Elfinsafety’s famous fish on a hook impersonation.

Thing is, why would anything need to be worshipped, and why would anybody want to be worshipping anything anyway? Can’t see the point, meself.

Elfinsafety’s famous fish on a hook impersonation.

Really? Yeah. Ok. Course. 😆

Fancy meeting for a pint sometime, Woppit?

@ crazy-legs

Thanks 🙂

Can I just say that nobody on here has ever tried to ram anything worse than a pork pie down my throat?

Well thank God for that! 😀

Just want to say that the most interesting and thought provoking things said on this thread have actually been said by those supporting religion. Like IanB’s bit up there.

Elfinsafety – Member

Elfinsafety’s famous fish on a hook impersonation.

Really? Yeah. Ok. Course

That’s right. I just wanted to see if you still had the same impulse to keep saying the same thing over and over ad neauseum as if nobody got it the first time round and behold! there you were.

I’d rather stick needles in my eyes than have a pint with you. I suspect you are exactly like your posts suggest.

Still waiting for a response on the “worshipping” thing, BTW.

Mr Woppit – Take all the things/ people you’ve got in your life and start to make a pyramid. At the bottom you’ve got things that aren’t that important. Above those you got slightly fewer things that are a little bit important and above those fewer things again more important than the ones below. Keep going until you place just one item on top of your pyramid. That is what you worship.

For Christians, Jesus is at the top of the pyramid, Hindu’s have Vishnu, Buddhists have Buddha etc. We all worship something. We’re hard-wired for it.

I’d rather stick needles in my eyes than have a pint with you. I suspect you are exactly like your posts suggest.

Ha ha! Even though you have no ‘evidence’ as to what I’m really like??

😆

You do make me laugh.

Which is why I’d love to have a pint with you.

Mr Woppit – Take all the things/ people you’ve got in your life and start to make a pyramid

Why?

Why not?

A conversation about the moral nature of humans descends into internet bun fight. Presumably this is some superb bit of interactive satire.

Nice one.

Seems to me it’s being suggested that if I undertook this Herculean labour, I’d be able to “worship” something. As I don’t much see any point in “worshipping” in the first place, I have no idea why I would even bother to begin said construction. The reward seems remarkably puny for such a lot of hard work…

I meant metaphorically, of course 🙄
I’m trying to get you to see that there will be something in your life that you worship over everything else, though you might not see it as worship as such. It’s entirely down to you to be honest in your assessment of your life.

Anyway, it’s a lovely evening here in Wales, so I’m off out on the bike 😀

IanB – Member
I meant metaphorically, of course
I’m trying to get you to see that there will be something in your life that you worship over everything else

Me too. Metaphorical hard work for a metaphorical reward, then. Still puny. Metaphorically.

It still doesn’t deal with why anybody should be”worshipping” anything in the first place or even want to.

It’s either worship or it isn’t. If it isn’t, what are we talking about?

Ah, riding a bike on a lovely evening. One of my personal favourite ways of appreciating the big man’s work and worshipping. With perhaps an urgent prayer or two on the scary bits.

Woot, i’ve got pile of cake, with a bike and pron collection balancing on top.

Looks more like a Novelty cake TBH.

Looking forward to a night of worshiping now.

Thankyou for sharing your irrational belief in invisible myth, anonymouse. However, my question was, why do you need to “worship” at all?

Woppit; why do you constantly feel the need to belittle and show no respect for others’ views at all?

irrational belief in invisible myth,

You say this to others, yet you yourself beleive in the invisible myth of ‘Hi-Fi’. Do you not see the irony and hypocrisy in this?

Seriously mate; I sit here laughing my head off at your attempts to be superior to anyone else on here. I mean, come on;

I’d rather stick needles in my eyes than have a pint with you.

Really? You’d rather blind yourself than meet someone you’ve never met? Who you have no idea as to their character other than the persona you perceive on an internet forum?

And you call others ‘irrational’???