Jesus Christ

You see, this is what fascinates me about religion. I can appreciate the art, music, buildings etc that religion has given the world, a lot of it is truly incredible.

However it’s the actual belief that I struggle with. There are people on here (me included) who are genuinely intersted in WHY you believe, what it gives you, why you believe in God rather than Allah/Buddha/Ammon-Ra/Thor (etc etc) and how you reconcile the bits of the Bible that are obviously allegorical with the bits that are supposed to be true. Is the Bible a moral compass for you? In other words, without it, would you rape, pillage and kill?

I’ve asked these questions over the years to many different people, out of real curiousity, seeking to understand, and all that gets thrown back is confused, woolly minded stuff or preaching or insults.

I used to ask a (Christian) friend at school about it and eventually he would invariably resort to one of several stock phrases:
“We’re not supposed to question God’s magnificence”
“God moves in mysterious ways”
“We’re not meant to understand….”
“You don’t believe so you can’t understand”

Cougar – Member
Julian, sorry – “URC”??

United Reformed Chuch

Cougar – Member

what did you do/were you doing that you needed saving from?

With respect, I’m not sure that’s important, or any of our business.

Thank you, Cougar.

@Alpin – Sorry, that wasn’t really an answer, was it? But it was an attempt at one.

Having someone to intercede for you when you mess up is so good. And I do mess up – a lot.

Sorry if this hasn’t really explained – very hard for me to put into words (but it shouldn’t be – it just is: lots of reasons why)

URC is a united reformed church.

Ah right, gotcha. Ta. I’ll confess I don’t know exactly what that means…! Could you perhaps give me a brief overview of what that stands for? (not trolling, genuine question, the different versions confuse me)

no, best aask Julian. i simply googled it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Reformed_Church

Cougar – Member

URC is United Reformed Church.

Ah right, gotcha. Ta. I’ll confess I don’t know exactly what that means…! Could you perhaps give me a brief overview of what that stands for? (not trolling, genuine question, the different versions confuse me)

Non-conformist – not Catholic or Anglican.

Sorry, have to go out for a walk – back in a bit.

why you believe in God rather than Allah/Buddha/Ammon-Ra/Thor

At the risk of derailing this, one thing I always wondered; assuming some ‘god’ exists, where would you stand if one of the other major religions was right? Eg, you spend your entire life following a Christian religion, praying, uh, religiously, etc; then get to the final judgement and find yourself face-to-face with Allah. You’re in -more- trouble than I am, no? You’ve spent your life worshipping a false god, I wasn’t a believer but at least I rejected all the wrong ones. Doesn’t that put me ahead on points?

Playing the odds, even if you believe, by that argument atheism is probably the safest bet.

If I have learnt nothing else from this thread I learned who’d I’d like to meet to shoot the breeze over such things (believers and non believers) and those who strungle to debate with penache and respect.

URC = Calvinism?

Interesting reading, cheers. Should’ve thought to JFGI.

In fact – I’m gonna quit this thread. It’s hard for me to articulate what I think and feel on a web forum. As I said, I’m not a good example of a Christian. You will have to judge as you find.

I dislike religious extremists of any faith as much as I dislike any other extremist – I should just like to live and let live, whoever you are. I shan’t try to kill you: please don’t try to kill me.

I’m not a good example of a Christian.

You’re not a good example of a Christian in the same way that I’m not a good example of a Vegetarian. That’s not necessarily a bad thing.

Hey, there’s an idea. In the interests of minority-bashing, I’m happy to be cross-examined if anyone feels the need to return the favour.

If I have learnt nothing else from this thread I learned who’d I’d like to meet to shoot the breeze over such things (believers and non believers) and those who strungle to debate with penache and respect.

Yeah, I’d second that.

i too, am out.

going round in circles. ernie has buggered off/is hiding and i’ve ‘won’.

And if you accept that the bible is fallible, how can we treat it as proof of anything?

I’m not sure that it is meant to be proof of something in a scientific way. It can be almost impossible to separate the allegorical from the commands passed down from the stuff that has to be interpreted based on the time the documents were written. The fact that so many wackos can get up on tv and spout outrageous stuff based on scripture is proof of that. The rest of us have to read, listen to others and make the best sense of it that we can based on everything in our lives, our experience and our eduction. It’s a rather imperfect mix really

Julian, you are a very good example of a Christian, compared to those who are so sure and so quick to answer. As an atheist myself, you’re the kind of Christian that is all too rare; fallible, but sticking in there.

[/quote]fallible, but sticking in there.

+1 tx for chipping in

Tips cap to JulianA.

Hope you get through whatever challenges you are currently facing.

maybe it’s worth an incredibly brief summary of what evangelical Christians actually believe. I’m not expecting this will change any minds but might be informative none the less.

God made everything out of nothing (Genesis 1), He made man (male and female namely Adam and Eve) in His image, and God saw that everything He made was perfect and good.

Satan tempted Adam and Eve to sin by disobeying God and all creation fell from a state of perfection. All that is bad in the world today has its root in the fall. All mankind from Adam and Eve onwards inherit Adam’s sinful nature (Romans 3:23). Because God is holy and perfect He cannot tolerate any sin in His presence. Sin requires God’s punishment. So the principle problem is that God is holy and man is not.

The whole Bible and the central message of Christianity is how God provides a solution to this problem in the person and work of Jesus Christ, the son of God.

Jesus was sent to earth, born a man (fully man and fully God), and lived a perfect life never sinning. Jesus was crucified on the cross and dying took upon himself the punishment that we deserve (Romans 3:25). God raised him from the dead on the third day (Easter) and Jesus is now in heaven.

It is faith in Jesus as the only way of salvation that provides forgiveness of sins and makes Christians holy in eyes of God. One of the key distinctions of Christianity is that salvation cannot be attained by works (you cannot earn or buy your way into heaven), but only faith in Jesus Christ.

When a person becomes a Christian, they receive a new nature so they want to please God. Christians are not perfect but they should show signs that God is at work in their lives. Christians are motivated to live Godly lives out of thankfulness to God. It is through Jesus that Christians have access to God though prayer and the Bible.

I expect some of you will find this to be absolute nonsense, which is the way it has always been since Jesus’ time on earth. Most in his day thought he was a nutter even with the miracles. If Jesus wasn’t the son of God, then all this is a waste of time. But if the Bible is true about Jesus then he is the only way to God.

Logic or reason will never convince a person to become a Christian. It takes a work of God to change a man’s heart. The most compelling argument for Christianity is the changed life of a Christian. I have seen the abundant kindness and transforming power of Jesus Christ in my own life. I don’t need more convincing than that.

I know I said that I was out of here, but

a) great post, infradig

and

b) thanks guys.

Can we debate (positively!) other faiths another night when I’m not completely wiped? There’s a lot of mileage there too…

Feel like I’ve come in just as everyone was leaving, but for Alpin, crazy-legs and others:

My belief in Jesus is one that I can’t prove, and like JulianA have some difficulty in articulating in a written form. I know that the presence of God cannot currently be proven in a way modern science would deem acceptable, but I’m not concerned with the how, or even perhaps the why. I accept the possibility of ridicule for what I believe, as Jesus did, though I would not seek to ridicule others for their (non)/belief. However, I feel an inbuilt compulsion for us to worship something and that has been the case for many thousands of years. For some it’ll be money, material goods, wife, girlfriend, boyfriend, children. For others, Jesus, Allah, Buddha etc. For me it’s Jesus.

Having faith in something is difficult to describe. It is a gift that finds you perhaps when you are not looking for it. Jesus is my friend and saviour because of the things he taught us 2000 years ago that seem (to me) to still be relevant today: The ethical values we should have for ourselves, others and the world around us. For love, compassion and community. For giving me hope in times of despair, for sharing in my times of joy and for giving me the courage to type these words.

Ian

Very well put, Ian.

Well I shall try not to be offensive but I have a real issue with this

the things he taught us 2000 years ago that seem (to me) to still be relevant today: The ethical values we should have for ourselves, others and the world around us. For love, compassion and community

I have ethical values but mine do not come from Christianity. I find this attitude that you need to be Christian to be moral and that morality comes from Christianity patronising at best and offensive at worst.

There is so much immoral behaviour in organised religion – from the hoarding of wealth in the churches to the sectarianism in Northern Ireland to the hatreds in the middle east.

So god, (an old beardy bloke)creator of everything, created Adam in his own image(early 20’s, cleanly shaved)who then created Eve from one of his(Adams) rib, they planted out a garden and had 3 kids. Mean while God created an angel, who in turn created Satan, Satan got bored and tricked eve or Adam into eating the forbidden fruit.
Years past and after an ice age and various other timelines, man began to walk the earth again god decided to place Jesus on earth as a baby, to grow up as an example of pure goodness.
Jesus went about his life doing good and helping others, along the way he learnt he didn’t have a real dad and his mother told him about the angels, kings and sheep in a stable, etc.. And so he started telling people his ole man was god. Now! the Romans weren’t too happy about this so he was captured and sentenced to death by crucifixion. For three days he hung there.
God was a little pi$$ed off now, jesus was doing a god job as gods PA but without jesus spouting off about god this, god that, it was feared he would be forgotton, so with the power that god has, he resurrected Jesus so say, ‘ooo look at me, look what i can do’ and prove that he is god.

Soon after, ‘pop’ and in a flash of white light, Jesus gets hoovered up into the skies to form a star.

Fast forward to modern times, people still have this faith that if they are good people, good will come of them and safe passage into the heavens will be there, however they can get away with being a little bad, so long as they say sorry through gods PA the local vicar, bit of a get out clause.

With your belief in god, and that Jesus was ‘the’ proof of god’s existence, you that believe, feel good, just from having that belief and the faith in the what you believe, the Christian community gives you love and strength to get through the bad times, the bad times caused by Satans trick on Adam an Eve.

Don’t you think that god made a monumental FU when he created a less then perfect angel(Lucifer)?
You put your faith in someone who didn’t make proto types,didn’t test them, he just rush in and threw substandard products out there into the world and then go whoops! i’ll deal with that later, my bad..

He’s no better than fruit and i don’t see to many people worshipping him.

What’s the law on this TJ, surely he’s not complied to the consumers rights.

Gods intentions may of been good, but if he worked in a bike shop and didn’t build your wheels properly you’d not go back to him for another one.

For that reason, I’m out!

TJ – where do your ethical values come from?

Someone once said that religion is man’s attempt to reach God whereas being a Christian is all about accepting God reaching out to man.

Religion under mans control has indeed lead to immorality and hatred but I would say that this is the complete opposite of what’s on God’s heart. Jesus Christ as God’s son came to provide a way back to God.

Most genuine Christians would not say you have to be a Christian to have ethical or morale values, however, in having a faith and belief in Jesus these values become a given.

If you can, try and separate those who have a personal love and faith in Jesus from Religion.

I hope this helps.

Most genuine Christians would not say you have to be a Christian to have ethical or morale values

And you don’t see why the other 70% of us might take exception to that? You’re sitting there saying I don’t have any ethical or moral values.

If you can, try and separate those who have a personal love and faith in Jesus from Religion.

You’re going to have to expand on that. “I love Jesus, but I’m not religious”?

The most compelling argument for Christianity is the changed life of a Christian

Knowing many recovered addicts… who have adopted to the ‘change your circle of friends’ approach to beating their addictions.. I would have to counter your argument using this as an example..

Anyones life will change dramatically if they are committed to making lifestyle and peergroup changes..

Religion is like a penis.

It’s fine to have one.
It’s fine to be proud of it.
But please don’t whip it out in public and start waving it around,
and PLEASE don’t try to shove it down my children’s throats.

This quote is superb and I am gonna to be taking it and using it elsewhere on the internet..

Thanks Woffle

You’re going to have to expand on that. “I love Jesus, but I’m not religious”?

I want to have a go at this.. I am defintitely not religious and find the whole thing a bit cultish at worst and kinda daft at best..

HOWEVER.. I have strong moral values that I believe I have had passed down to me through my parents and through their parents who were certainly a lot more godfearing and churchy than I could ever have hoped to be..

They may have believed that the stories in the big book were real and to be feared and obeyed.. whereas nowadays we know it’s just a kids story to help our kids get a good moral foundation..

nothing wrong with loving Jesus then… I love John Steinbeck and Irvine Welsh..

Why can’t religous people respect aetheists’ views?

Why can’t religous people respect aetheists’ views?

Most do. Five minutes on the internet will show that vitriol flows mainly the other way. (And that’s not an attack on atheism or atheists, just an observation that a small percentage of them do tend to get their knickers in a twist in a big way).

Why can’t religous people respect aetheists’ views?

Haven’t read the previous 5-6 paqes yet – so perhaps enlightment will have to wait until I have…

Anyhow, it is my belief that strongly held relious views are the antithesis of respect for other people’s views. Religion is a form of tribalism. Having no tribe or belonging to another tribe engenders distrust, dislike or outright hostility / hatred (get off this continuum where you like, or where your civilised sensibilities allow you to)

Often religion is used as an excuse for all sorts of bad things rooted in sectarianism so it is important to make a distinction between personal faith and “Religion” as a more of a cultural/ethnic identity.

In the same way that a citizen is not defined by the policies of the State, individuals shouldn’t get lumped into the beliefs of the religious establishment.

I’m not going to make a case for all religions, but as far as Christianity goes there unfortunately is a lot of things advocated by the organized “Church” that has nothing to do or is contrary to the teachings of the Bible. Just because something is labeled as “Christian” doesn’t mean it really is. Most of the stuff that you see in the media is from the extremes, either people who don’t believe or folks who want to distort the Bible to justify their own wacko views.

Cougar – re-read my quote 🙂

Religion is well established, well funded and unfortunately in other parts of the world it seems to be growing at a pace, especially Islam.

The voice of the church is loud, has special disposition to be involved in affairs of state and is protected by various laws (especially those concerning tax) the church is ingrained into society in a way that atheism isn’t. This is even more true of places like the US, Africa and latin countries.

This means that atheists have to shout very loud in order to be heard over the white noise generated by the church. This has the side effect of making atheists sound strident and shrill when in actual fact they are mostly reasonable people who try to focus on the evidence.

The church is also very well versed in creating strawmen, subjecting it’s detractors to ad hominem attacks and is generally working from a position of strength in comparison to secular movements.

The final big barrier for the secular is that we do not share a coherent philosophy that we are all behind in the way the church does, we are less organised and individual atheists are often isolated especially in outside western Europe.

I think that the Anti-Theist movement is struggling to engage at a macro level which then tends to make atheists, that feel strongly opposed to the church, quite agressive in their views as we have no really effective representation.

I urge anyone who actually wants change to happen to join The Secular Society as they do some good work and could do with the money!

tyger – Member

TJ – where do your ethical values come from?

From within me and from what I have been taught.

Kant has a lot of very interesting stuff to say on this but basically Christianity has captured and packaged our innate moral structure and claimed it for itself

TJ – but where did your “innate moral structure” come from in the first place?

For me, I believe it was God given.

Cougar – re-read my quote

I can read, I’m just obviously missing something. Spell it out?

where did your “innate moral structure” come from in the first place?

For me, I believe it was God given.

I’m not wholly convinced that it’s innate. If it was, then there wouldn’t be so many gits in the world.

Would any one like some toast?

tyger –

So those like me who have no god have no morals? Or do you believe your god gave me morals as well?

Its inbuilt within us as a result of evolutionary pressures. IE those who behaved in what we consider a moral manner were more successful and more likely to breed and pass their genes on.

Morality is a very complex thing and varies with varied conditions however. I very much doubt you even ascribe to all of the bibles moral code

Christianity took this innate moral code and codified it and claimed it for themselves

Some discussion here. I don’t believe Kant was right about everything.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kant-moral/