yeti guy – Member
I find this thread hugely offensive, but appreciate everyone has their own opinions. that is one of the many redeeming qualities of Jesus, is that he allowed people to be free thinking.

Jesus to me is – My friend and saviour

Well put, yeti guy.

My faith is my own, others can believe what they like. I don’t care what you believe, who you worship, what colour you are, whether you sleep with someone of your own sex or anything else.

I will tell you what I believe if you ask me in person. I will not try to make you believe what I believe – only to try to be a good example (which I struggle with).

I have a lot of problems with various aspects of the Church (note the capital C), but that’s a different post.

Live and let live.

JulianA > Whilst I don’t share your faith, I applaud your attitude. Well said.

And with those two posts, let us end this thread please.

Just when an interesting discussion was threatening to break out?

No, just as common sense and tolerance had broken out! 🙂

i’d like to know why we’re concentrating on christianity (note small “c”) and not the other religions found within our solar system.

look at the state of Iran. a people oppressed using the thin viel of religious righteousness.

why the f*ck should we tolerate something that disadvantageously affects the lives of so many women?

why should we accept beliefs that cause suffering to many African women through the practice of circumcision?

why should we accept the negative influence of religions upon politics and subsequently the people governed by those politics?

why should we put up with schools that tell their students lies based upon a book.

**** me… i read a book once; goldilocks and the three bears. doesn’t make it true, does it?, just because it’s been written down and i’ve gone to the trouble of reading it.

no, i don’t celebrate christmas. i haven’t bought presents for loved ones at christmas for the past few years.

i do like easter as it means i can buy lots of cheap choclit. and for some reason i find easter egg choclit tastes different to normal bars of the same stuff.

i object to the fact that i’m told when to take a break from work (ok, technically this doesn’t currently affect me, but it used to) because of a supposed death of a supposed character.

and food for thought….

was mary artificially inseminated by aliens?

It’ll pass, I’m sure. (-:

I’d just like to stick my head above the parapet and declare myself to be a believer. Come and have a pop if you like, I think my faith’s big enough to take it.

I should also point out that I am expressing my personal view on a relevant thread. I am not seeking converts or ramming my faith down anyone’s throat.

yeti guy – Member

……………

Jesus to me is – My friend and saviour

along with Julian, could you please enlighten me/us as to how he is your friend and saviour? i’m serious and will not take the piss/ridicule your answer. i’m just interested as to how this can/could be as it is something i’ve often heard, but never understood/had explained to me.

I am not seeking converts

You better not be; you’ll have no luck there sunshine! 😉

“Stop looking for insults and read as it is written.”
Oh right TJ, I must have been mistaken when I took the ‘you’ and ‘yours’ bits personally then. Silly me…

so religion is something special that requires / has special status?

Special status ? What are you talking about…….you only show respect towards people when it concerns things which have a “special status” ?

Really, this is like talking to a bunch of silly argumentative kids.

Let me spell it out in simple terms for you ……..

Religion and politics are clearly not the same thing. For example……. if Mr Patel in the shop down the road has a picture of a long-haired guru or some multi-armed deity, I feel absolutely no urge whatsoever to ridicule him, make a derogative comment, or in any way challenge him.

In fact, I feel a very strong obligation to show him the respect which he undoubtedly deserves towards his beliefs. Indeed if I made any comment at all, it would be motivated by a genuine interest in his beliefs.

If however, Mr Patel had a “Vote Conservative” poster on his shop window, I might well feel a need to challenge him and express some disapproval towards his political views.

Actually this isn’t entirely a hypothetical situation. There are Asian shops down my manor that have Hindu artefacts behind their counters, I did on one occasion ask who the guru was. And in the 2005 general election, one Asian shop near me had a poster of Malcolm Wicks, the former Labour minister with whom I fell out over the Iraq war. I did challenge the shopkeeper, pointing out Wick’s warmongering record.

There is clearly a difference between religion and politics.

.

BTW TJ, RE : “the reason this is offensive is it is saying that its because of Jesus people can be free thinking.”

You have to be some sort of **** to be offended because someone has told you that God has made you “freethinking”.

To be serious for a moment, I think there are several reasons why people are currently more openly questioning and mocking of religious orthodoxy than they were even a few years ago.

Religion has often been used by the ruling classes in many societies as a means of control and oppression.
In the Western world, this has slowly been changing since the Enlightenment, but even if the formal link between religion and state has been abandoned many years ago in favour of a notional secularism, it is only now that the majority, the non-religious, feel able to openly treat religious belief/opinion the same as they would any other aspect of non-rational speculative thought.
Basically, people will mock the religious because they now can, without fear of oppression, ostracism or death. It’s human nature to question, and within that spectrum of questioning behaviour will be mockery and abuse – it’s what we do as a species.

Secondly, as Western orthodox Christian theology looses its grip on the majority of the European population, it throws our own increasing secularism into ever sharper contrast to those societies where religious belief still holds sway: We can see where we’ve come from and the majority of us have no wish to go back there.

As someone who was brought up in a Catholic household (albeit with a strongly atheist father, whose beliefs I shared from childhood) and who attended Catholic educational establishments until the age of 18, the questioning (and yes, occasional mockery) of religious belief is more in the way of a release than an attack. I’m sorry if mockery offends, but it’s part of life in a secular society that promotes religious and (non-religious) tolerance.

nuff said!

I met Jesus once, he was on the MRT in Bangkok, I think he was German, and had come back to earth to cleanse Bangkok of it’s vice’s or some such story.

He was going up to couples on the MRT, forgiegn and local and speaking to them about the ten commandments. I missed my stop because I was too busy watching his actions.

He made me break the 11th Commandment – Thou shalt not be late to meeting ones wife for her birthday lunch.

I feel a very strong obligation to show him the respect which he undoubtedly deserves towards his beliefs. Indeed if I made any comment at all, it would be motivated by a genuine interest in his beliefs.

If however, Mr Patel had a “Vote Conservative” poster on his shop window, I might well feel a need to challenge him and express some disapproval towards his political views.

You’ve just explained that you believe that there’s a difference, which is fair enough, but haven’t explained why.

Why’s it ok to confront someone on their political beliefs, but not their religious beliefs? What’s the difference?

If the first part is too hard, let’s look at the second; why do you feel it’s acceptable to challenge someone’s political beliefs? What right have you to do that? Why do you think you know better?

Oh here we go again. Let C&P the same thing one more time :

Because whether people choose to go to church on a Sunday, or mosque/synagogue on a Saturday, or temple on whatever day, or whether they choose to pray in their homes, or believe in whatever they choose to believe, does not in any way whatsoever, bother or affect me.

The way they vote does.

Barneley mitch – I have had a reread – the “you” where I used it was intended as the general case. of a person – would have been beter written a ” if a person…then they” or ” if one…….” Only in one post that I could see and I would have thought the context was clear that it was the general you not specific

Seriously – not intended as aimed at you personal but at people in general.

ernie
what do you do when someone say that I can or cant do this because of religion?

If people keep it to themselves fine – if they want me to behave in certain ways because of their beliefs then its not OK.

If they adopt a position of moral superiority because of their beliefs should I let it pass? This is why I get offended by the statement from yeti guy – because he is religious he is morally superior to me?

The way they vote does.

Right. So the 9/11 attack, the London tube bombings, the riots in Ireland, they had nothing to do with religion at all?

People have never withheld medical treatment to their children because of religious beliefs? Or covered up institutional child abuse, dragged me out of bed of a sunday morning, told teenage girls not to use condoms, persecuted homosexuals for years… I could go on but that’s not constructive.

Wow, you’re right, one man’s vote is way more important. Far better to be able to have an illusion that you’ve any say in which bunch of corrupt shysters is better equipped to run the country than the others.

brilliant ernie… you really should have entered politics.

you have consistently failed to answer the question posed to you.

why should you “… feel a very strong obligation to show him the respect which he undoubtedly deserves towards his beliefs.”…?

that simply doesn’t make sense. if he were to hang a picture of your favoured political hero, would you “feel a very strong obligation to show him the respect which he undoubtedly deserves towards his [political] beliefs.”?

why should you respect someone for having a belief in god, but not in any other aspect of their lives?

i’m not holding my breath that you’ll give a straight answer to this without re-posting/quoting something that you’ve already written and where we’re meant to cleary understand where you stand on the subject without us subjectively reading between the lines.

The point I’m trying to make there is,

You seem to be alluding that religion is a personal and private thing, in comparison to politics which affects other people. This is patently nonsense. If it were true, there’d be no such thing as organised religion.

should the believers not be trying to convert the rest of us? are they not commanded’ to do that?

Nah, the commandments are only stories, remember.

No really, this just like talking to a bunch of silly argumentative kids who pretend that they don’t understand what the grown-up is talking about.

And of course they have to enter the realms of infantile absurdity by making extreme and ridiculous statements.

Yes, yes, yes, we should jump down peoples throats at the merest hint that they might have any religious views because of 9/11, the Spanish Inquisition, etc, etc, etc, etc

Well done…………..you win

🙄

should the believers not be trying to convert the rest of us? are they not commanded’ to do that?

I don’t know if Dawkins has commanded it yet or not, but it certainly feels like it sometimes on here.

Although we don’t have imaginary chums who live in the sky or what ever it is..

one of the many redeeming qualities of Jesus, is that he allowed people to be free thinking.

What a daft thing to say.
Was there no free thinking before jesus?
Is it only because of him that I have freedom of thought today?

edit: p.s. I don’t doubt that the bible and the church have massively affected how we think about things but that’s not the same as allowing free thinking – in fact you could accuse the church of restricting thinking over time.

along with Julian, could you please enlighten me/us as to how he is your friend and saviour?

MrsJulianA and I have been through some very hard times (bit of a tough one right now because of illness) but we know we’ll get through – we have faith.

We don’t go to church very often – URC when we do, which is where we were married – but it doesn’t matter: it’s what you believe. We find beauty in God’s creation wherever we go: Micheldever Woods this afternoon or Greece last week.

No sermon intended. And I should definitely try to be a better example of a Christian.

Well, no.

You’ve come out with twaddle, you’ve had questions posed that you’re unable to field, and then you’ve resorted to getting angry and abusive because that’s the only option left to you.

And then you wonder why people have no respect for religion.

I might well be guilty of exaggerating or playing devil’s advocate to demonstrate a point, but ok, let’s play that game. You’re a big mature adult, I’m a child. Explain it to me.

ernie, you’ve not answered anything other than thrown undirected insults and not answer the question as to why religion deserves respect.

if i/we’ve won, its a very shallow victory. much like if your ‘opponent’ doens’t turn up to the game.

i’m not looking to win, i’m wanting to know why you won’t answer TJ or any other question directed at you.

Julian, sorry – “URC”??

JulianA – Member

“along with Julian, could you please enlighten me/us as to how he is your friend and saviour?”

MrsJulianA and I have been through some very hard times (bit of a tough one right now because of illness) but we know we’ll get through – we have faith.

We don’t go to church very often – URC when we do, which is where we were married – but it doesn’t matter: it’s what you believe. We find beauty in God’s creation wherever we go: Micheldever Woods this afternoon or Greece last week.

No sermon intended. And I should definitely try to be a better example of a Christian.

you’ve not answered anything.

why is he your saviour? what did you do/were you doing that you needed saving from?

how is he your friend?

what did you do/were you doing that you needed saving from?

With respect, I’m not sure that’s important, or any of our business.

ok, fair do’s, but why then is Jesus a saviour in his life?

and how does faith help you survive illness…? ultimately, with or without faith, you die.

So if those were stories, by extension the rest of the book is as well?

Well yes. I think most believers would consider the Bible as being inspired by God but written down by humans with all that that entails. IIRC the set of writings that were considered sufficiently sacred in some way to constitute our ‘Bible’ was only put together 4th or 5th century. There are others that some folks also take into account e.g. the set of writings in the ‘apocrypha’ which you will also sometime see. The difficulty as always is making sense of it. As has been said already it wasn’t written as an instruction manual

ernie, you’ve not answered anything other than thrown undirected insults

Well there you go.

if i/we’ve won, its a very shallow victory. much like if your ‘opponent’ doens’t turn up to the game.

Don’t look at it like that…………..see it as a stunning victory !

After all, I clearly had strong views. But because of the sheer quality of your argument, I was reduced to throwing “undirected insults”.

Well done you.

ultimately, with or without faith, you die.

Well yes, ultimately, we all die. But there’s a good argument for faith in the ‘ilness’ situation; it’s essentially an extension of the placebo effect, you believe you’re going to get better so you do.

The difficulty as always is making sense of it. As has been said already it wasn’t written as an instruction manual

Yeah, I appreciate this. It’s kinda where I was going with it; if it’s ambiguous, how can you take it as (pardon the pun) gospel? And if you accept that the bible is fallible, how can we treat it as proof of anything?

(hey, I’m debating against the atheists, I’m an equal opportunities argumentalist!!)

I think vast truckloads of psychedelic drugs should be compulsory…

This will undoubtedly help people to ‘make sense of things’

AMEN

@ Cougar… yes, i’m aware of the placebo effect. oh, and URC is a united reformed church.

@ ernie, your capitulation still doesn’t answer what has been asked of you by myself or others.

i really don’t like quoting people as it makes me appear anal, but:

No really, this just like talking to a bunch of silly argumentative kids who pretend that they don’t understand what the grown-up is talking about.

your gambit suggests that you are above the rest of those who do not agree with you. this could be construed as insulting those you are addressing.

what is the grown-up talking about?
as i understand it you are considerably more ‘grown up’ (in years, at least) than many users of this forum. would you like to enlighten us ‘kids’ as to what you mean?