Jeremy Vine show – bike lights are too bright!

I know this is like Groundhog Day all over again, but the German-type lights with defined cut-off are great on the road, don’t dazzle oncoming traffic and barely if ever get a mention in road bike light tests which seems a bit daft.

This. The German lights are bright enough for fast riding on unlit roads, but don’t dazzle because they focus the light where it’s needed. Bright off-road lights are pretty anti-social.

In any case, even a modest commuting light is very visible from some distance away – a driver will only hit you if they’re not looking, in which case no light will save you.

The argument is that you may actually are MORE at risk if drivers cannot see anything, not safer. And other road users are almost certainly at more risk.

The problem is at the moment it’s simply ‘an argument’. A bunch of people finding yet another reason to position cyclists as ‘the enemy of right-thinking people’, ignoring the actual cause of most collisions on the roads – drivers…

Yes there’s plenty of anecdote that some of the lights on the market are superbright – certainly IMO any light designed for MTB night riding is too bright for road use, but it’s only anecdote. As far as I know there’s no study/data/research which says that the prevalence of superbright LED bike lights has led to any increase in collisions or incidents on the road AT ALL… and I’m certainly not going back to 1980’s/90’s incandescent bulb lights – they were way too dim.

Until someone can present some data or a proper scientific study which provides proper evidence that decent lights cause more damage than they avoid then I’m going to continue to run decent lights to make sure I’m visible. My own experience of ‘trying to be less bright’ meant I nearly got hit 3 times in one ride…

Besides, I’m legally required to light myself up properly….

Until someone can present some data or a proper scientific study which provides proper evidence that decent lights cause more damage than they avoid then I’m going to continue to run decent lights to make sure I’m visible.

It’s not either/ or. You could buy a light bright enough to be highly visible, without risk of dazzling other road users.

It’s not either/ or. You could buy a light bright enough to be highly visible, without risk of dazzling other road users

I get that, but who’s defining whether my lights are bright enough or dazzling? They’re all British-bought cycling-specific lights, having passed all legal requirements to be on sale… so on that basis, surely they fit these criteria?

But we now have a load of people complaining that cyclists’ lights are TOO bright. According to what? It’s just opinion, subjectivity and anecdote, which doesn’t help me make any decision at all about what lights to have and how to set them up.

I think I’m using my commonsense to meet my legal obligations but other people think I’m being inconsiderate…

It’s all a bit silly really and not very helpful in focussing on where the danger actually comes from (as recorded in Police records)

There’s a fairly good selection from the German MO shops, just a shame that UK shops don’t tend to range them.

they new chilli-tech one is german standards from the UK for £40…

http://www.chilli-tech.com/bike-lights/british-standard-bike-light

http://www.rosebikes.co.uk/article/philips-saferide-80-led-bike-light-battery-front-light/aid:642257
A good place to start – 80 lux refracted cut-off beam, USB charged. A bit pricier than the average ebay LED torch but money well spent imo. There’s a fairly good selection from the German MO shops, just a shame that UK shops don’t tend to range them. The Sigma Mono RL rear light is really good.

The saferide is no longer made – bit of shame, because they probably are about the most usable of the ‘sociable lights’. Of what’s left, the Ixon IQ Premium is probably about the best beam pattern I’ve seen, but is much more stable on the fork crown mount than on the bar mount. That seems to be a general problem with these lights – it’s a pity the “oh so great” Germans can’t match the build quality of Exposure. (For example, see the chilli tech plastic thing!)

I get that, but who’s defining whether my lights are bright enough or dazzling? They’re all British-bought cycling-specific lights, having passed all legal requirements to be on sale… so on that basis, surely they fit these criteria?

We all know that current lighting regulations are not fit for purpose, so I’m not sure why you’re arguing on a basis of legality. We can argue about what constitutes “dazzling” or we could just buy the correct tool for the job, which is a German-standard light.

it’s a pity the “oh so great” Germans can’t match the build quality of Exposure

they probably could at the same prices…

chilli-tech light at £40, Exposure Strada at £200+

and the strada isn’t K-mark, so doesn’t help you out with the legality issue.

it’s a pity the “oh so great” Germans can’t match the build quality of Exposure

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they probably could at the same prices…

chilli-tech light at £40, Exposure Strada at £200+

If they made a light of the same quality, with both the current dipped beam and a proper, easily switched, main beam, I’d certainly be interested. I can see no good reason though why they can’t at least produce a stable mount at a lower price.

and the strada isn’t K-mark, so doesn’t help you out with the legality issue.

I’m not in Germany, so that’s not actually interesting.

Fine, most of the time the better K lights are enough – I don’t think that’s always true, and I don’t really understand why a switched high-beam isn’t an achievable objective – is it actually forbidden by the STVZO regs?

I am not so impressed with the german lights. I have a son edelux II on my commuter, and I don’t find it very good at all on unlit roads. It is ok for a town bike in lit streets but I wouldn’t want to use it for sporty riding on unlit country lanes. If exposure did a commuter version of their dynamo revo ie switch, crown mount and screw connectors but with the same light beam I would swap it in a second.

We all know that current lighting regulations are not fit for purpose

Based on who’s judgement?

we could just buy the correct tool for the job, which is a German-standard light.

Based on who’s judgement? And what, exactly is ‘German’ standard?

I’ve spent around £300 on road-specific lights which meet all current UK legal requirements in an attempt to make myself safe and meet my legal obligations and you’re suggesting that I, as well as EVERYONE else, regardless of income should scrap them and go out and buy ‘German-standard’ lights because you THINK that’s better?

Well good luck with that one!

Worth looking at some stats: being ‘dazzled’ by cyclists’ lights just isn’t present as a cause… Note that drivers failing to look properly IS present, however, in which case there’s a case that lights have to be bright to help capture driver’s attention…

Leigh Day

– some 80% of bike accidents taking place in daylight
– Research carried out by the City of Westminster Council has found that vehicle drivers were to blame for 68% of collisions involving cyclists and that 21% of all collisions between bikes and vehicles were caused by drivers failing to look properly. Other factors that can cause cycle accidents include the poor state of the road, loose debris on the road and the presence of large potholes which cannot be avoided by cyclists.

I think this is just another stick to beat cyclists with – blame cyclists for their own demise, irrespective of complete lack of data or other evidence to suggest lights are a cause of collisions or injury…

that’s not to suggest you don’t have a point that some lights are very bright or aren’t mounted very well, but that’s an education point, just like Bikeability would help improve cyclists’ safety. As opposed to blanket blaming cyclists for being ‘wrong’ all the time…

molgrips – Member

If you’ve never done my suggestion, how do you know that your test is comparable?

By the application of rational thought.

I’m not in Germany, so that’s not actually interesting.

you don’t have to be in germany do you ? There are very few lights that meet the outdated british standard so you have little choice to have a ‘legal’ light, but the get-out is that the german k-mark standard also counts.

I’ve spent around £300 on road-specific lights which meet all current UK legal requirements

which ones are those then, they aren’t many around that do ?

which ones are those then, they aren’t many around that do ?

Interesting… let’s say I believe they all do on the basis they were bought in UK shops, described as bike lights and I don’t recall seeing any warnings that they weren’t…

Put it this way, if they’re not then we’re all screwed – I’ve done everything I can to make myself safe so if I’m not meeting legal requirements, research, bought from reputable manufacturers and retailers, then I’d suggest that 99% of other cyclists out there are illegal too…

Exposure Joystick on bars
Exposure Trace and TraceR – handlebars and seatpost
Lezyne Zecto x2 – seatpost and backpack
Moon Mask on helmet

you don’t have to be in germany do you ? There are very few lights that meet the outdated british standard so you have little choice to have a ‘legal’ light, but the get-out is that the german k-mark standard also counts.

So far as I know, no one official has ever said that the k mark is actually an acceptable substitute. On the other hand, I have never heard a policemen (and I know plenty) suggest that any cyclist might be pestered in any way if they have lights, those lights are adequately bright, and those lights are not clearly dazzling (generally they seem to prefer bright to non-dazzling, both is nice).

Some k mark lights are usable, but they are not perfect, not even many German cyclists think they are, and generally the build quality is in a range from piss poor to appalling, for which there is no very good excuse.

On a related note…

Besides, I’m legally required to light myself up properly

Don’t underestimate the literal interpretation of this, I’ve found that having a light directed at me has helped massively, it’s just a little knog jobbie on the bar so nothing bright but pointed back at my chest, and one on the back of my rack pointing at my back, lights up my torso really well, especially when I’m wearing a top with reflective bits on it and really seems to hit an unconscious trigger with people and makes them see ‘person on bike’ instead of just ‘bike’

It’s really not hard to verify- lean bike against wall, go and see whether it’s glarey. First thing you should do with any light really. And, it’s not.

If you’ve never done my suggestion, how do you know that your test is comparable?

By the application of rational thought.

hmmm, I bet there’s a shitload of upward relected light when the roads are wet

and this is exactly what I’d do if I was commuting:

Don’t underestimate the literal interpretation of this, I’ve found that having a light directed at me has helped massively, it’s just a little knog jobbie on the bar so nothing bright but pointed back at my chest, and one on the back of my rack pointing at my back, lights up my torso really well, especially when I’m wearing a top with reflective bits on it and really seems to hit an unconscious trigger with people and makes them see ‘person on bike’ instead of just ‘bike’

scaredypants – Member

hmmm, I bet there’s a shitload of upward relected light when the roads are wet

Aye, loads- maybe even as much as 50% of that you get from a car.

I don’t buy that nw – there’s something about a tiny, near point-source that makes it “blinding”

Interesting… let’s say I believe they all do on the basis they were bought in UK shops, described as bike lights and I don’t recall seeing any warnings that they weren’t…

ignorance is not a defense…

scaredypants – Member

I don’t buy that nw – there’s something about a tiny, near point-source that makes it “blinding”

Sure, but the reflection off the road isn’t like that, unless you have a laser for a headlight and a mirror for a road.

how do you know that your test is comparable?

By the application of rational thought.

Lolz!

wet black road is fairly close to a mirror IME (as a commuting driver), and the central bit of your beam isn’t really divergent

but, meh, it’s a free country

I’m not sure what your problem is in this instance molgrips?

NW says he leant his bike up against something (to simulate an upright bicyle being ridden) with the light switched on, and then went to see if it was glarey by looking at it it from the position of an oncoming vehicle/person, what exactly about that makes you think it’s not representative?

The only variable he won’t have replicated is looking through the glass of a windscreen, but that’s not going to affect the outcome.

That’s exactly how I check my lights too, lean the bike up somewhere and then go off an approach it from various distances and heights to see what it looks like, seems like a perfectly reasonable check to me… 😕

FWIW it lead to me angling my light a bit more downwards and also making a plastic hood for it, which although not perfect does help.

He didn’t say he looked at it from the correct position, he’s also not inside a car surroudned by car like things, but what made me laugh is the assertion that his confidence that one is right is sufficient on which to base the argument that one is right 🙂

He didn’t say he looked at it from the correct position

He didn’t say he looked at it from an incorrect position either.

He didn’t specifically say “I looked form various heights and distances to simulate approaching vehicles” but he did say he checked if it was glarey, you’re assuming* he didn’t check properly which frankly I think is unfair.

*fair enough I made an assumption too, I assumed checked=checked as well as I was able for a number of heights and distances, you assumed he didn’t.

Not a big deal but it just comes across as you berating someone who has actually made an effort to see if their lights are angled correctly, and doing so based on an assumption of their incompetence. I’ve never met either of you but I would assume that someone taking the time to check their lights would probably have enough cogs in their noggin to do it properly.

Of what’s left, the Ixon IQ Premium is probably about the best beam pattern I’ve seen, but is much more stable on the fork crown mount than on the bar mount. That seems to be a general problem with these lights – it’s a pity the “oh so great” Germans can’t match the build quality of Exposure.

I’ve got a Cyo Premium mounted below my bars with the Schmidt handlebar bracket. It’s simple, cheap and rock solid.

I’ve used the Cyo IQ Premium for commuting, training and a couple of overnight Audax rides on unlit minor country roads in the past year, and it has worked very well. Plenty of light in the right place.

molgrips – Member

what made me laugh is the assertion that his confidence that one is right is sufficient on which to base the argument that one is right

What’s making me laugh, is your baseless confidence that a light you’ve never seen is glarey, and the fact that you think that’s more relevant than my checks to make sure it isn’t. It’s just weird tbf.

I do like “surrounded by car like things” though. Yep, the steering wheel and the seatbelts definitely contributes to whether a bike light is glarey.

scaredypants – Member

the central bit of your beam isn’t really divergent

It is, though. It’d be useless as a bike light if it wasn’t.

your baseless confidence that a light you’ve never seen is glarey

I think you’d better go back and re-read my posts, cos that’s not what I’ve said at all. I’ve never seen your light, it’s your logic I’m lauging at. And now maybe your reading comprehension 🙂

I was just after a constructive discussion about perception of lights.

I figure it’s quite apt to post this altura night vision vest for£9.99 in this thread

molgrips – Member

I was just after a constructive discussion about perception of lights.

You’re obviously not, from your casual dismissal of anything you disagree with. Or is “LOLZ” a constructive discussion now?

Re pointing lights back at you – this is actually a good idea. However your reflectives won’t work, they RE-flect, not DE-flect. So unless the car is at the right angle, almost looking through the light emitter, then the reflecting properties won’t be visible. You’ll still be, but your reflectives won’t.

Now xmas is here I might make rig some fairy lights up on my bike!

So unless the car is at the right angle, almost looking through the light emitter

Which at handlebar height and on the back of my rack is probably actually quite often for appraoching cars from either direction, but a very good point, it does still light up my top very well.

Had a similar improvement when I got a bright yellow and bright orange helmet for commuting, I absolutely hate the necessity of wearing hi-viz stuff but having your head stand out like a day-glo popsicle does seem to work wonders for making people realise you’re a person.

the central bit of your beam isn’t really divergent

It is, though. It’d be useless as a bike light if it wasn’t

so looking directly at a bike light is never uncomfortable then ?
Look at most beam shots, there’s a central very bright area with a much less bright and more divergent outer section

My commute involves a dozen miles unlit country roads after leaving the city. I have a feeling that dirty windscreen interiors and ageing, faulty eyesight play a part in this problem with drivers. I reckon that these must contribute to the dazzle effect of our very intense, pinpoint LEDs. Despite running my Yindings or Hope Vision at lowest settings, I get flashed fairly often for bright front lights; I probably deserve it much of the time, as I prefer to stay safe by being as visible as possible. If they flash you, at least you know that you have been seen.

I wonder how those who criticise cyclists for having ‘overbright’ lights feel about drivers with foglights on when there’s no fog?

The saferide is no longer made –

Ah yes .. sort of undermines my point a little : )

You’re obviously not, from your casual dismissal of anything you disagree with. Or is “LOLZ” a constructive discussion now?

The first few posts were entirely reasonable, I only lolled when you start getting shirty.

Many people seem to think of this as another Cars vs Cyclists argument, but irresponsible lighting also dazzles other cyclists.

molgrips – Member

I only lolled when you start getting shirty.

Um, nope. You LOLZed when I said I’d thought about how to test the safety of the light. How is that getting shirty?