It hurts. It really bloody hurts.

Over the last couple of months, I’ve found myself feeling more and more excluded from a community that, at one time, was hugely important to me. That community was this very forum and the people here.

When I came out as trans a few years ago, the support and friendliness I received here was one of the main things that got me through a challenging part of my life and I am hugely grateful for that.

But recently, things have changed.

I have been reduced to tears on multiple occasions reading the comments of some users who seem to be prolific recently, people like rene59, technicallyinept and geetee1972. Reading Alpin use a term like “was-man” absolutely reduced me to tears.

I understand the challenges of the moderators as many of the comments, in isolation, are not against the rules of the forum. The overall effect of the weight of comments about women and, especially, trans women, is to make a section of the mountain biking community feel unwelcome here. Indeed, it makes me feel directly unwelcome.

Seriously, is this what this community wants these days? Are you happy with yourselves?

Let me be quite clear; I’m not posting this because I want to have a discussion as to whether or not the comments are excluding – of that there is no doubt as they are actually having that effect already. I would just hope there could be some recognition that this situation has come about and know there is at least a desire to do something about it.

TBH until you posted this i had no idea.

**** em.
You have been true to yourself and that’s all that matters.

I couldn’t agree more Rachel.

This place is becoming increasingly toxic and we’ve lost a load of good people as a result.

It’s not just gender issues either.

I also had no idea – I’m selective in the threads I read, but perhaps I shouldn’t be. I’m sorry that you have had a shit time and for not having tried to help. I just want to let you know that I think you are awesome and you have my full support and sympathy, for what it’s worth!

It is very difficult without speaking face-to-face to really understand the implications of what you’re saying on an internet forum, which is why there is so much nastiness online. But we can do better if we really try.

I have noticed there seems to have been a downward trend in standards this past year or so. But it doesn’t just apply on this website.
All i can say is, my standards haven’t changed, I suspect people rarely change their standards through life, so i can only assume that relatively newer users are making their presence felt.
I will also add, if anyone is under the (mistaken) impression that it’s ok to judge another human because their life is different to someone else, that says a lot about them but nothing about the person they are judging.
Life rule #1 should always apply, Don’t be a dick.
#liveandletlive.

Are the comments directed at yourself?, if not then I guess it’s freedom of expression and my advice would be to ignore stuff you don’t like

I am like molgrips nowadays, I am very selective with the threads I look at.
certain topics seem to attract the same people, either up for a argument or just because.
keep your chin up love. there are still loads of nice folk on here.
and you seem like on of em.

Whilst I may not be trans, I have several friends riding and otherwise who are and they
too get shit like this. It’s uncalled for, unthinking, selfish and offensive.

There have been many occasions where I’ve wanted to “vent off” but they’ve all asked me
not to.

I’d go along with somafunk and say try to ignore it (not that it’s going to be easy)

Please, I don’t need advice for what I should do. I’m perfectly capable of working that out myself.

What this forum needs to do is work out what *it* needs to do.

What this forum needs to do is work out what *it* needs to do.

We should all piss off over to Mumsnet?

I think back to those rides you came out on. Then those rides you didn’t. Then those rides you came out on again. And how bloody brilliant it was to share your laughs, worries and your openness with people’s curiosity. You were and are a brave, and admirable individual that I feel genuinely richer for knowing.
More importantly, it was just nice to get out on the bike with a lovely bunch of people and share the trails.

That group of people are still about. They’re still here. And they’re still here with you. If anyone I know has the strength to call out the idiocy which is displayed at times on here, it’s you. And you’ll always have back up.

Just to echo some of the comments above, this place had gotten a little more negative recently. People being rude to other posters just because they have a different opinion. Little effort made to see the other person’s point of view. Shame really as it’s generally good and positive. I also tend to skip those threads as it’s clear where they are heading. Maybe a few more of us need to step in and call out some of the more bigoted posts. That said I’m pretty sure some of the users mentioned in the op are getting called out fairly regularly. Hope things improve. It would be a shame if the idiots push out the good members.

Does the extension still work that blocks certain users?

There seems to be two approaches for the forum as a whole to take

1) Engage – not surprisingly this just seems to provoke the people who are trying to get a reaction to further activity of the same sort.

2) Ignore it – I think the most powerful thing we as a group can do is not respond.

After a few attempts at 1) I’m fairly firmly in the 2) camp now – if we as a community make it clear we’re not going to take the bait the people doing this will go elsewhere to try their fishing skills.

We can’t rely on the mods to manage this – we all need to show where we stand.

Rachel is a barometer of STW’s approach on this issue, imo, and if she’s calling us out then we need to change what we do as a community – not expect her to change what she does or ‘just ignore it’.

Does the extension still work that blocks certain users?

I think so. I haven’t seen any posts from that Tom1987W  guy for ages

Why should it be upon the forum to work out what it needs to do? , have comments been made directly to yourself ?  Or are you upset because certain thoughts and personal opinions have been expressed. Not a crime nor against forum rules as far as I know however misguided they may be

I’ll admit to having read threads and posts by the usual suspects you list in your post (rene59, technicallyinept and geetee in particular) and thought “what does Rachel think about this?”. I doubt they realise that ther are trans people using the forum, but more scarily I don’t think they care. They are absolute in their opinions and because they don’t realise that they’re deemed to be, at the least, dubious by wider society (or, possibly, they know they are but think wider society is wrong), they don’t see why they should be quiet about them.

Personally, I’d ban them. A lot of their posts are toxic to the forum and while I think there is a loss of free speech element to this, it is illegal to show predjudice towards trans people. And, also, this is Singletrack’s community and if they don’t want people making the place toxic or people made to feel so bad by what users are saying they can do whatever the hell they want.

The extension to block users doesn’t work anymore (at least, not the one I’m using).

Some people are dicks through lack of forethought, some people are intentionally dicks.

Question for Rachel – have you actually used the report post button where you’ve felt something crosses the line?

I assume the moderators have real jobs that means the forum is reactively monitored. If they don’t know something is off, they can’t do anything about it.

Sadly, this forum is a microcosm of society. As society has become more intolerant, so has the forum.

People feel emboldened by their social media echo chambers and now post comments and opinions that even five years ago wouldn’t have been deemed acceptable.

Oh, and this:

A lot of their posts are toxic to the forum and while I think there is a loss of free speech element to this,

There isn’t a right to free speech on the forum. It’s a privately-hosted platform. STW makes the rules, and what they say goes. Even if we don’t like it (c.f. classifieds etc..)

People may be free to say whatever they want about whomever they want – just not here.

The extension to block users doesn’t work anymore

Maybe that’s the answer?

If that functionality was native to the forum then these posts would get filtered out by the majority of people.

” It’s so easy to laugh
It’s so easy to hate
It takes guts to be gentle and kind ”
The man who spoke those words may have changed but I always remember them when dealing with idiots.

There are lots of opinions on here I find offensive but that doesn’t mean they should be shut down or closed off. You either end up with the proprietors carrying out censorship and/or promotion of their viewpoints (and we criticise the big media giants for this) or a witch hunt where the user base start on a form of McCarthyism.  Maybe we need a binding referendum on who is allowed to post – or a vote-up/vote-down system where some posts are deleted when they fall below a certain measure. Sounds crap to me.

this place had gotten a little more negative recently. People being rude to other posters just because they have a different opinion. Little effort made to see the other person’s point of view.

Really? I’ve been around this forum for a while and don’t think it has changed much in that respect.

Ignore people who conflate free speech with being an arsehole, regardless of the consequences.

also, people who use the term snowflake tend to be particularly thin skinned.

I disagree with a lot of what GT posts and have warnings for my responses to him. However, I can’t recall anything he posted that was about LGBT issues? Did I miss it?

Sadly, this forum is a microcosm of society. As society has become more intolerant, so has the forum.

Do you really think this forum is intolerant?

As society has become more intolerant, so has the forum.

That’s just utter nonsense. The reason people are having more of these discussions is because people are becoming more tolerant. As that discussion takes place in relation to something like this gender issue, things will be said that hurt others.

It’s just the way of things while people work out their thoughts on the matter.

People can maybe be more selective in what they say, but tbh all that does is hide people’s true feelings and doesn’t let a discussion happen naturally.

I think there has been a shift in the prominent posters on here. I used to come on here and spend time looking through the chat forum, but now I just tend to stick to the bike stuff as I find myself becoming more and more frustrated with the attitudes of some people (although that’s even extending to the bike forum these days).

I don’t know what the solution is. I think maybe it’s a cyclical thing as I’ve definitely thought this before and then the forum has seemed to change for the better. I think that such issues tend to be caused by a vocal minority rather than the majority of users on here. Maybe we should all be more proactive in calling people out when they say something that’s out of order, but people get sick of calling people up on their idiotic attitudes as it just tends to turn into a pointless argument that detracts from whatever the original post was about.

I do find myself ignoring certain threads as I know they’ll be full of the same people pushing their personal agendas, and maybe this is part of the problem. If everyone ignores these threads then the opinions go unchallenged by the masses while someone who is affected by these threads may find it harder to ignore and would feel like they are the only ones who disagree with the idiots.

The problem is that most people just come on here for some light relief and don’t want to get involved in heated debates, so it’s easier to ignore than to challenge.

All I can say to the OP is that you’re not alone. I for one would be sad to see you leave due to the opinions of a few idiots. The forum needs more open-minded, welcoming people that do not judge others for whatever reason, not less.

Do you really think this forum is intolerant?

That’s just utter nonsense.

?

Sadly, this forum is a microcosm of society

And today’s “society” is the worldwide web. Where everyone feels they have the right to express their views and opinions, no matter how twisted, ridiculous or pathetic. In most of our lifetimes, we have known a pre-internet age, where the sick, pathetic and mostly just stupid idiots of the world just stayed in and just shouted at their bedroom walls. Now they have “a voice” for everyone to hear. Opinions on things which don’t effect them, their family, anyone they will ever know, spring forth from their bouncing fingers.
What I’m saying is, you’ve got to ignore them. You won’t change them, that is for certain. Some will be here, others on Twitter, Facebook et al. Their words typed on here don’t really effect you any more than when they shouted at their bedroom walls. Except now, you hear it.

I think like other social media/networks stw needs to look at the overall arc of a persons contribution – if it’s negative, disrespectful and intended to upset/provoke reactions then they need to go.

There is no requirement for stw to provide freedom of speech – it’s a commercial company and how it behaves on this illustrates it’s ethos. I’d hope Mark etc would go for an approach that denies those out to provoke a voice and to give people who have a positive contribution to make a reason to keep comign here without feeling like they’ve got to take a deep breath before reading and ignore bits that attack who they are.

Trouble is, in the nicest possible way. The moderators can be overly aggressive or assertive. There have been instances where ‘directors of STW’ have told users to f?!k off on Facebook. All because of differing opinions or misunderstanding. It’s a real shame that someone’s posts on a bicycle forum are so ignorant they make another genuinely feel excluded. I would hate to think that I had allowed myself to be the cause for someone’s upset. But I think the general attitude needs to be led from the top by example. The problem is, as we have been told they don’t really care about the forum. We are all still sat here blue in the face from holding our breath waiting for chips feedback following ‘classified debarcle’

I find it somewhat disappointing that the online community has such little value, as arguably its the back bone and USP for STW!

This place is becoming increasingly toxic and we’ve lost a load of good people as a result.

It’s not just gender issues either.

I think there’s a lot of this. I remember when TJ was banned for basically being argumentative although not really personal – I don’t see why anyone would stoop to that level.

I guess as others have said, you are clearly the barometer on this issue, bearing in mind how this is making you feel I know I’ll be on the lookout and reporting things. There’s no reason to exclude anybody from this community, but there are plenty of people in every walk of life willing to dump their problems on others, and you’re sometimes on the receiving end of that and it’s not right.

Now can we get back to arguing over the correct wheel size (29″), whether ebikes are OK (I’m agnostic on that one) and whether you can ever really be over-biked?

I genuinely struggle to understand what people get out of these kinds of posts.

Why does it matter so much to them to put another human being down?

I’ve been a relentless piss-taker on here and have probably said some things that are pretty near the knuckle but if anyone can show me one of my posts that contains genuine malice then I’d delete my account there and then.

Remember for every arseohle, there is a good person. the arseholes just stand out more.

also recall that some people genuinely don’t realise they’re being arseholes, they’re just too fixated on their own worries.

I know in the past I’ve posted things which have offended you Rach, and that was never my intention – I genuinely do try not to be offensive to anyone who doesn’t deserve it (****puffins like the BNP and UKIppers can **** right off though), so for the fact that I offended you I apologise, but please know that I like you

Just to add, I think it’s a wider problem not just within STW. I see so much aggression and hatred nowadays. I have heard of people being verbally and physically assaulted because they voted to leave the EU. I see constant passive aggressive postings on Facebook relating to Brexit. Hell we even get EU leaders talking about ‘special places in hell’. The world is losing respect, respect for each other’s decisions, choices and beliefs and I think it’s a much poorer place because of it.

Very interesting.

Ok I had no idea you were trans, ive noticed that you signed off as Rachel so I guessed you are a girl. It doesn’t matter to me if I’m honest. Now theres a couple of things here. The first is this is the internet with lots of people from many walks of life. While the “don’t be a dick” rule applies im afraid that in life there are always going to be some people that are dicks. You cant get away from this. If these people are abusive then that’s one thing and that should not be tolerated at all. If they are expressing their views then that’s another. I think the advice of ignore them is valid. By saying you don’t need advice and that everything has to change to make you happy it makes you as bad as them imo.

Some people say things for a reaction. I cant even pretend to know what you have, gone, are going through. But I think youll find that everyone on here will defend to the death for people to do what suits them as long as it doesn’t effect others.

Im sorry that your feeling pushed out. That’s not good.

Why should it be upon the forum to work out what it needs to do? , have comments been made directly to yourself ?

I don’t see why that matters. If the tone of the forum is making people feel excluded then we should all be having a think about the kind of place we want this to be.

I don’t see why that matters. If the tone of the forum is making people feel excluded then we should all be having a think about the kind of place we want this to be.

Are we excluding the excluders then?

I don’t do social media, only web fora on cycling and climbing and the nearest I get is reading the comments under Youtube videos, which I find absolutely shocking. I simply can’t believe the trash that people post, the hatred, the venom, the spite. If that’s what people feel empowered to post on social media, we are heading in a very dark direction. There is already evidence of social media interfering in elections and inflaming gang wars in London, so what next?