Is the term ‘jungle drums’ racist?

Besides, offence isn’t something you give, it’s something you (choose to) take.

This is something that self-help books tell to people to try and give them a sense of control over a situation, but I don’t agree. If I walk in and start talking like an absolute arsehole insulting and upsetting everyone, it’s clearly MY fault for being an arsehole. You can very obviously GIVE offence. Your words should accurately communicate your sentiment, and sometimes that sentiment is offence.

I don’t see it as overtly racist per se, but can see how it could be interpreted as reinforcing dated stereotypes. In any event, there is a bit of a stereotype here about stopping digging when you’re in a hole…!

Here we are again in the world of context and intent.

Did you intend to make a racist remark? No.

Is the complainant in the right or being over-sensitive? Who knows. There’s enough actual racism in the world for someone to throw their toys of the the pram over something which, however you slice it, was an innocent mistake.

Perhaps a better response might have been “I had no idea that anyone might have found that offensive and I’ll endeavour not to say it again.”

^this.

However since this is STW you are clearly the one at fault since you are an unapologetic racist and Wrap yourself in white privilege when held to account for your sub 1970s stand-up behaviour.

If I walk in and start talking like an absolute arsehole insulting and upsetting everyone, it’s clearly MY fault for being an arsehole. You can very obviously GIVE offence.

No, you’re confusing BEING offensive with GIVING offence. Unless you’re saying it’s 100% up to you to judge whether someone should be offended by what you’re saying, or not? Which is a bit of a gammony attitude these days.

So the lesson here is to never use the word jungle in any context ever just in case a person of colour is offended in some way. – maybe use “tropical undergrowth” as a suitable alternative word

and dont offer an apology of any sort out of politeness in an attempt to de-escalate the situation just in case he’s offended by that also –  instead just tell him to piss off and mind his own business rather than butting into a conversation that doesnt concern him

ok got it.

Yep this country’s f****d.

“White wash” when used to mean a cover up.

“Edinburgh defense” when meaning someone was only joking so what they said was OK

“black sheep” which combines two clearly offensive words… imagine you’re black and Welsh!

“Going Dutch”, “French letter”, “Italian tune up”, “It’s Greek to me”, “Polish Plumber”, “Russian roulette”, “WC Turk”, “tête de Turque”, “parler comme une vache Espagnole”,

Makes you think. I will however erase the “j***** d****” experession from my vocabulary forthwith.

Yep this country’s f****d.

It’s not, I can see why you might think that if you are obtuse enough not to recognise that some-ones lived experience might be different to yours, and show the tiniest amount of empathy.

In any event, there is a bit of a stereotype here about stopping digging when you’re in a hole…!

But do ensure the correct terminology is used to describe the said digging implement.

Should we also ban all words that came into English from, say, India because they are a reminder of colonial rule?

Wash your mouth out with soap.

I didn’t in this case. If he can choose to take it when none was offered then how is that something I should apologise for without knowing the details?

If you accidentally trip someone up do you apologies for them falling over. Or do you accept that an accidental action of yours hurt them and apologise for tripping them up?

The PC approved phrase is “Chinese whispers”

I never get this I mean “whispers”? 🤔

Oh ya … just in case someone gets PC on me I am descendant of Chinese from SE Asia.

Are they actually whispering? I wish they were because they annoy the hell out of me when they speak including me friends.

When we speak or talk you can hear us miles away … sounds more like fighting or arguing … 🤣

p/s:

Is the term ‘jungle drums’ racist?

No.

It’s a tricky one and has left you in a bit of a predicament. I agree with the posters stating speak to him and outline what you think the phrase means, how you didn’t intend to offend and see what he says.

If you don’t fancy doing this face to face send it by Bush Telegraph

It has slight racist edges / tone to me. However your non apology is the thing that concerns me.

Perhaps it would have been better to say “Is it? I don’t realise, help me understand”

As for the bullshit about offense not being given. It was. You might not have intended it but it was offensive to him. Yu may think him unreasonable but you did offend. Inadvertantly perhaps but it was offensive to him

IMO its not a hanging offense tho – its one for learning from. m I wouldn’t worry too much from and HR point of virew. As an ex union rep I would like to think I could make a good defense

do NOT tel him what you intended in that way – compounding the offense by lecturing telling him he was wrong. As above. ” I am sorry, I didn’t intend it to be offensive and didn’t realise it could be taken that way. Help me understand” is a much better approach IMO

Did some MF say jungle drums.

Colour Him Farther.

Should I be expecting to find myself in hot water at work?

Don’t know. Depending on how PC your HR is at work …

p/s:

The PC approved phrase is “Chinese whispers”

Oh ya … I am not offended in anyway or form.

Unless you’re saying it’s 100% up to you to judge whether someone should be offended by what you’re saying, or not? Which is a bit of a gammony attitude these days.

Come again?

Can’t believe I’ve never seen militant black guy before. Made me chuckle

But do ensure the correct terminology is used to describe the said digging implement.

Chapeau Sir

A quick google indicates that ‘jungle drums’ is now used as a term to describe the sounds coming from an ‘urban’ cars/houses. Maybe that gives it a fresh racial twist.

As a term in itself it does not seem overtly racist to me save having a colonial connotation. I can’t see it as specifically would have been used in a negative way which is why a word/phrase ends up unacceptable in modern parlance. I would have previously put it with ‘rumour mill’ and ‘grapevine’ as interchangeable. Never been a go to phrase mind but up until now not on my no go list.

Chinese Whispers – now that is one that (thinking about it) could easily be considered racist. It sounds gossipy and ill informed and does not say good things about the people it was named after.

lolz @  chesters’ militant black guy vid

“gangsta-claus”  😀

I wasn’t complaining about it, or said it in a negative way, I just said that the jungle drums beat me to it.

Wasn’t the offended guy who passed on the news was it? In that context I can see how it could be offensive!

Gimme a can of Irn Bru!

RACIST!

🙂

do NOT tel him what you intended in that way – compounding the offense by lecturing telling him he was wrong.

I didn’t read it like that. I read it as ‘for the avoidance of doubt I was not intending to be racist’. Whilst I appreciate how something is received it very important, explaining the lack of intent to cause offence (casual or specifically insulting) is still very important to how the rest of the conversation will go.

Wasn’t the offended guy who passed on the news was it? In that context I can see how it could be offensive!

That’s a great point actually, I don’t know who found out first but it’s a real possibility, and I’d definitely agree it wouldn’t have been a nice thing to say if it could have been taken as I was calling him jungle drums. I will try and speak with him in the morning.

Not racist.
What about black looks, black day, black friday?
Wasn’t there some sort of fuss about ‘cheeky little monkey’?
The issue appears to be with the person who over-heard without, apparently, understanding.
I would not have apologised for the perceived offence.

One of the problems with using phrases like “Jungle Drums” is your assuming they were a shit form of communication in the way you used them. Where in reality they were probably well in advance of anything Western Civilization had at the time

Always more in line with your second sentence IMO/E – means of getting a message in advance of anything from an official source, hence more efficient

This is something that self-help books tell to people to try and give them a sense of control over a situation, but I don’t agree. If I walk in and start talking like an absolute arsehole insulting and upsetting everyone, it’s clearly MY fault for being an arsehole. You can very obviously GIVE offence. Your words should accurately communicate your sentiment, and sometimes that sentiment is offence.

You calling the OP an arsehole, then Mols ? That’s offensive

I’ve never really come across the idea of “giving” offence before – sure, you can intend that it be taken but you can also not intend it, in which case I’d agree that it must occasionally have to just be taken. Doesn’t make the offence any less in their eyes, and you “caused” it but I don’t think you need to beg forgiveness in all cases. “I really didn’t mean any offence – that’s just a figure of speech to me” is good enough for me

To take the trippy-uppy analogy; if I accidentally tripped someone up then yes, I’d apologise but there’s also a place for people not looking where they going and then bleating when they walk into someone/thing else. They can **** right off if they try demanding an apology

OP, you do seem to have a bit of a supercilious approach to communication and on occasion come across as a bit of a smartarse, at least in written form, maybe that’s what he’s offended about…

benv

Member
well, I have now ordered one

Course you did. Something new and shiny you don’t need, and all it took was a wee prompt by an advert. A short lived dopomine hit, addictive though, got to keep consuming to keep up that buzz. After all what’s the point of working and suffering all that comes along with it if we don’t buy shite we don’t need?

My first instinct when I inadvertently offend someone is to start apologising profusely whether I think there’s nothing to be offended about or not.

Unless I actually am trying to be offend someone but in a sort of shithouse, ‘lets see if I can get them wound up enough to take a swing at me’ kind of way. Then I’ll go to great lengths to politely explain to them why they are wrong.

Phrases like, ‘I’m sorry if you took offence but…’ are made for this kind of infuriating wind up.

Genuine question to the people that think this phrase is a normal part of UK vernacular: how old are you?

I ask because I am 40 and had literally never heard the term ‘jungle drums’ used analogously to ‘on the grapevine’ until I opened this thread (i was hoping it was about actual percussive music!!)

A lot of these terms can be quite specific to certain social groups too. A privately educated friend recently expressed wonder that he used to hear the phrase ‘play the white man’ at school, which again I had never heard until that point.

A quick google indicates that ‘jungle drums’ is now used as a term to describe the sounds coming from an ‘urban’ cars/houses.

I would bet my house and all my worldly possessions that black people don’t use it that way.

OP, you do seem to have a bit of a supercilious approach to communication and on occasion come across as a bit of a smartarse, at least in written form, maybe that’s what he’s offended about…

Could be, I do on occasion. I apologise profusely for offending you in a previous thread.

Genuine question to the people that think this phrase is a normal part of UK vernacular: how old are you?

42

I think that was the point Doris, that it’s possibly now more overtly racist than originally.

I’m mid 40s and know what it means. It’s actually a really good analogy for the situation in question, better than Chinese whispers or the grapevine.

So anyway, what do we reckon the outcome will be here? Diversity awareness training for the OP?

I would bet my house and all my worldly possessions that black people don’t use it that way.

which is kind of the point.

Also, top marks for the amen break video above. Made me smile.

sorry, hadn’t quite twigged in that case!

I can see why they were upset by the comment, racist tropes carry centuries of discrimination and still cause harm today as they perpetuate negative stereotypes which do affect peoples life outcomes. It may be easy to dismiss one flippant comment, it’s not so easy when you hear them several times a day and these micro-aggressions do have a lasting impact.
STW may not be ready for my friend Nathaniel Adam Tobias *, but here you go. Skip to 1.47

Still not entirely sure how the phrase is racist unless you happenened to be in a largely white workplace and you were implying that the gossip was being spread by black people. It’s just a phrase about how quickly rumours spread (albeit one I’d never think of using myself)

One of the problems with using phrases like “Jungle Drums” is your assuming they were a shit form of communication in the way you used them.

How?

Should we also ban all words that came into English from, say, India because they are a reminder of colonial rule?

What would I call my bungalow?