Is the term ‘jungle drums’ racist?

I’ve never even once mentioned anyones skin colour in this whole thread

Maybe you should. Someone else did, Tpbiker, nothing to do with the person being black according to him. I’ve avoided talking directly to you OP and discussed in generalities with others. If you want to get personal there’s some really interesting stuff in your posting history.

The last time we exchanged forum posts was on a thread about a week ago benv, yours was the first post, mine was the second. Unrelated but your sexist sense of humour is not appreciated by all:

benv

Member

Isn’t it also marking the day in the year where the gender paygap effectively means women are working for free until the new year now?

Great! I will stop paying the cleaners until January then. Except the male ones of course – Happy Men’s Day lads! More beer money for you.
Posted 1 week ago

Its simply unavoidable that its a horrible process to have to go thru

Not really. Look at the OPs account of the very first meeting of his disciplinary – very easily could have been handled less “horribly” imo, even while achieving objectivity. It just sounds like HR were particularly officious and, in a very marginal case, caused somebody to feel like they had no option but to leave.

Cougar

NOpe

“Jungle drums” is not career ending. I was never going to be a dismissal and unlikely even to be a formal warning ( unless there is more in the OPs history we do not know. Easy unfair dismissal case if dismissed for that.

Nor is your interpretation of pale male and stale right because you miss the “can be seen as” Nor is that person the adjudicator – he is the investigator and from the way I see it trying to help Benv understand the others point of view.

Batfink

From my own fairly extensive experience of disciplinary and investigation it was the usual and normal investigation. If the OP had had union support to help him understand the process it might well have been much less stressful for him. that to me is the real shame in all this. That with the right support the OP could have been in a much better place to deal with this.

The OP had not even got to the disciplinary – he was in the investigative stage and resigned after than. No disciplinary ever started

I take it you have never been involved in one.

But seriously, “jungle drums” referring to a method of communication is career-ending

No, that’s just a thoughtless expression that could have been resolved right at the beginning. What’s career ending is the behaviour afterwards – the clearly non-genuine apology followed by complaining about the complainant to other employees, etc. If the company didn’t hold a disciplinary hearing on that follow-up behaviour, they would be opening themselves up to charges that they implicitly condoned harassment.

So the complainant was a white African?

I used African as a description because the guy was born in Africa to African parents although he moved here when he was young. I used African descent rather than just African because that’s how he described himself – ie African Scottish. How do I know this? Because we have previously had several civil conversations (I thought pleasant ones).

I thought mentioning he was of African descent rather than he was black was more appropriate in the context of my OP and the words I used to which he took offence to. At the time of my post, I was sure that Africa was central to the origin of the phrase and had I referred to him as black only, well he could be from any number of backgrounds. From reading contributions to this thread, I learned that the phrase could also be attributed to parts of Asia and South America.

Nor is your interpretation of pale male and stale right because you miss the “can be seen as”

So he was asking the OP to accept that he was being judged negatively on the basis of both his race and his age….. and he should accept that and adjust his behavior accordingly? AS PART OF AN INVESTIGATION INTO THE OP USING RACIST LANGUAGE? Really? No hint of irony or hypocracy there?

I take it you have never been involved in one.

No – but as I said, I’ve seen the impact they have on people, even when you come out “exonerated”

Like those people from the OPs HR department, perhaps you’ve become desensitized to the impact that this has on people who don’t go through this as part of their day job?

“Jungle drums” is not career ending.

Yet directly or indirectly it’s cost him his job.

Nor is your interpretation of pale male and stale right because you miss the “can be seen as”

Oh come on. You’re splitting hairs between “is racist” and “might be racist”?

Nor is that person the adjudicator – he is the investigator

Potayto, potahto. Find and replace words, it doesn’t change the point.

No, that’s just a thoughtless expression that could have been resolved right at the beginning. What’s career ending is the behaviour afterwards

That’s a very good point.

Which one was he in a disciplinary for?

cougar – his unwillness to engage with the investigation has cost him his job. he threw his teddys out of the pram and quit. Your interpretation of the pale male and stale is waaaaaaaaaaaay differnt to mine. Its not stating others are racist in any way. Not in the slightest

Batfink – not at all. I am not desensitised if anything my own experience of being disciplined has made me even more sensitive as has the experience of having a false allegations made against me that was investigated and if found to be true would have put me in jail. Now thats stressful

Really? No hint of irony or hypocracy there?

NOpe – just ( IMO) you not understanding this at all

At the time of my post, I was sure that Africa was central to the origin of the phrase and had I referred to him as black only

Which is fair enough, and yes possibly more relevant than merely “black” in that case. But you can’t then really argue that you’d never mentioned anyone’s skin colour because it’s implicit in the OP; why would a white African be objecting to ‘jungle drums’ any more that Brian from Scunthorpe?

NOpe – just ( IMO) you not understanding this at all

Ah, I stand corrected then. But it’s only about whether somebody was offended, right? The OP felt it was racist – so therefore it was, and the offender should immediately issue a heartfelt apology?

his unwillness to engage with the investigation has cost him his job.

His eagerness to jack in his job cost him his job. Sounds like he was perfectly willing to cooperate until he ran away. Though that raises other questions.

Your interpretation of the pale male and stale is waaaaaaaaaaaay differnt to mine. Its not stating others are racist in any way. Not in the slightest

In the middle of an alleged racism investigation the investigator comes out with “pale male and stale” and you don’t see that as even remotely problematic? I want a new union rep.

If I walked past a group of young black women at work and overheard them saying “yeah, that Cougar, he’s pale male and stale” I’d be off to HR myself.

Apologies all – this seems to have got me disproportionately annoyed on behalf of the OP – decaf for the rest of the day I think.

(In truth I work from home, so if I walked past a group of young black women at work I’d be going “WTF are you doing in my living room?”)

I see it as unwise. He was trying to help the OP understand where the complaint came from . He lost his objectivity and used a phrase unwisely in such a way it was open to misinterpretation

don’t worry – If I was in there as union rep I would use your interpretation to hammer him if I thought it appropriate. 😉

right – its been very interesting. I hope my contributions have been helpful. Waaaaaaaaaaay pat my bedtime

edit: deleted (sorry)

I see it as unwise. He was trying to help the OP understand where the complaint came from

… by suggesting that the complainant might be racist?

He lost his objectivity and used a phrase unwisely in such a way it was open to misinterpretation

Much like the OP, then?

If the OP had had union support to help him understand the process it might well have been much less stressful for him. that to me is the real shame in all this. That with the right support the OP could have been in a much better place to deal with this.

Well that is a definite lesson I’ve taken away. Never in my life have I been the recipient of a grievance or subject to any disciplinary process. I will strive not to in future either, but if I do, I’ll be better prepared for sure.

One thing I will say though is that I’ll be much more careful about what companies I’ll work for in future. There seems to be a direction corporate culture is heading at present that is totally alien to me. I’ll be in no rush to be part of it again in future. Life’s too short and work takes up too much a chunk of it as it is, without having to spend the rest of it walking on eggshells.

Which is fair enough, and yes possibly more relevant than merely “black” in that case. But you can’t then really argue that you’d never mentioned anyone’s skin colour because it’s implicit in the OP; why would a white African be objecting to ‘jungle drums’ any more that Brian from Scunthorpe?

Well Africa is not a colour. I stand by my point which was more about making sweeping generalisations based on skin colour. I used that description to make it personal to him, deliberately not using a more generic term. Believe it or not, I was trying to be more sensitive in doing so, but seems you’re damned if you do, damned if you don’t, all on someone elses whim at that.

Personally I think the OP has been poorly treated, some of the language used against him “pale male and stale” is jaw dropping. But he hasn’t quite said how the term jungle drums was used ? I mentioned I’d heard it used in a racist manner and this is how it was. It was my first job late 70’s, in the sales office there was one manager who’d sometimes ask one of the girls to get some one on the phone. There was one black girl Janice and if he asked her, it was get so and so on the jungle drums, only her everyone else was phone or blower. The term can be used in a racist manner, something I’m aware of. It’s a term I’ve long since stopped using.

Well Africa is not a colour.

It’s not, but I doubt very much that anyone contributing to this discussion every remotely considered that you might be talking about someone like Elon Musk.

It’s hard to conceive how you might think “African complains about the use of the term ‘jungle drums'” could be taken any other way than the complainant being someone who might stereotypically be banging such drums. Surely that’s the crux of the complaint.

I was on your side from the outset based on the accounts you’ve given, I think the charge is spurious, I have every sympathy and I wouldn’t wish what’s happened to you on anyone. But the more you post, the more I think there’s more to all this than you’re letting on. There’s too much that doesn’t add up.

His eagerness to jack in his job cost him his job. Sounds like he was perfectly willing to cooperate until he ran away. Though that raises other questions.

I was willing to cooperate until I realised I was in the fortunate position where I didn’t have to put up with being in what I thought was a shitty situation totally blown out of all proportion. If I was in a process where I felt I was being treated fairly then yes I would have seen it through. As it was I felt that it could have ended up going anywhere, so why should I put up with that if I didn’t have to? If that ‘raises other questions’ then raise them and don’t make snide digs about me running away either. I made a sincere effort to resolve this both directly and amicably.

But the more you post, the more I think there’s more to all this than you’re letting on. There’s too much that doesn’t add up.

I think I’ve been fairly open and honest, can’t see from my posts any pertinent information I’ve missed out, but whatever, it’s over now and I am happy with my decision and how I’ve handled myself. That’s all that matters to me just now.

But he hasn’t quite said how the term jungle drums was used ?

I was hunched over along with two others on a mobile phone on speaker in the main office area (holds about 10 people) discussing a meeting that finished about 30mins before that I had just returned from. I was asked by the person on the phone if I had passed on the good news yet to the others about a contract we just won to which I said yes, but the jungle drums beat me to it. Said in a lighthearted manner not aimed at anyone in particular. Someone else at the meeting had obviously phoned or messaged ahead of me getting back and word had naturally spread quickly around the small depot.

I touched on this on page one, but should have expanded on it.

Maybe, but in this particular case it was a reference to the fact that the jungle drums beat me to telling some good news. I had travelled back 30mins or so from a meeting and was going to deliver some news in person about a contract win, but by the time I got there they aready knew. I wasn’t complaining about it, or said it in a negative way, I just said that the jungle drums beat me to it.

I was willing to cooperate until I realised I was in the fortunate position where I didn’t have to put up with being in what I thought was a shitty situation totally blown out of all proportion.

That sounds totally reasonable TBH. I’d have fought harder perhaps, but then I’m an obstinate shit.

it’s over now and I am happy with my decision and how I’ve handled myself. That’s all that matters to me just now.

Good.

so if I walked past a group of young black women at work I’d be goin WTF are you doing in my living room?”)

Cos they’re young or cos they’re women or cos they’re black? Just trying to figure out what kind of ist you are.

The pale male and stale Was not “used against him” nor is it racist in that context in any way. Its a clumsy way of trying to show the OP how the workplace culture could be perceived.

I consider STW to be very pale and male. It clearly is. that gives STW a certain culture. Its very noticable .

One thing I will say though is that I’ll be much more careful about what companies I’ll work for in future.

You probably also need to learn about what is seen as appropriate language. I would never use the term jungle drums as it just immediately sounds inappropriate. Mentioned it to my wife and her sub second reaction was “you can’t use that term”
Yes you can try and blame the company for keeping up with the more enlightened times, trying to ensure the workplace is harmonious for all etc,. but in an ideal world all companies should be doing that and you will eventually run out of places to work while you sit at home reading the Daily Mail and shouting to yourself “it’s PC gone mad”

You probably also need to learn about what is seen as appropriate language

It may a scewwed opinion but from the responses on here to the situation shows that it is not commonly know as inappropriate language. It may develop into that as a result of this or other events, but at the time it seems the majority would say it’s acceptable in the context given.

I have been talked to about using a term that was used by someone else in the conversation 30 secs earlier. I had no power to reverse the ‘talking to’ even if others in the room were shock at how I was treated (even the person we were referring to).

If someone is blinded by process or what they think is right it is very hard to direct them away from that.

 I was asked by the person on the phone if I had passed on the good news yet to the others about a contract we just won to which I said yes, but the jungle drums beat me to it.

Thanks for that OP. In that context definitely not racist. Good luck for the future hope everything works out 👍👍

It may a scewwed opinion but from the responses on here to the situation shows that it is not commonly know as inappropriate language. It may develop into that as a result of this or other events, but at the time it seems the majority would say it’s acceptable in the context given.

To me it seemed immediately wrong, to my wife it seemed immediately wrong. We don’t need to know whether it is commonly known as inappropriate language, nobody needs to tell us that.

you will eventually run out of places to work while you sit at home reading the Daily Mail and shouting to yourself “it’s PC gone mad”

Wow. The use of tired old stereotypes to belittle others. A tactic beloved of amongst others, genuine racists. Well done.

To me it seemed immediately wrong, to my wife it seemed immediately wrong.

I asked 3 of my colleagues. Whilst not hr professionals they work in hr (as do i) for a huge organisation that has won numerous awards for diversity.

None thought it particularly racist, albeit one had never even heard of the expression. So no I can’t imagine it’s that obvious at all, and the fact you are in the minority on here tends to confirm that.

In that context definitely not racist

Even if the person that passed on the good news before he got a chance was the complainant?

Even if the person that passed on the good news before he got a chance was the complainant?

Someone else alluded to that on page 2. Would certainly put a different spin on things if that was the context tbh.

Even if the person that passed on the good news before he got a chance was the complainant?

Goes back to page 2 where benv did respond…

Wasn’t the offended guy who passed on the news was it? In that context I can see how it could be offensive!

That’s a great point actually, I don’t know who found out first but it’s a real possibility, and I’d definitely agree it wouldn’t have been a nice thing to say if it could have been taken as I was calling him jungle drums. I will try and speak with him in the morning.

Was the complainant at the meeting?

it seems the majority would say it’s acceptable in the context given.

It doesn’t matter what a handful of people on an internet forum think, what matters is what any HR department in any company would think, which is that it’s not an appropriate expression to use.

I’m not saying the OP is racist for using it, that’s not the issue. The problem is that “jungle drums” is typical of the expressions that racists do use as dog whistles and it’s impossible for your audience to know whether you’re a racist trying to be clever or just someone who hasn’t really thought about how the expression sounds. In other words, it’s not that you are a racist, it’s just that using that term is pretty much guaranteed to make some people believe you are a racist. No company is going to want to hire someone who is likely to use problematic expressions, so the smart thing to do is stop using them.

AND don’t complain about people objecting to you using problematic expressions. That’s worse than using them in the first place, pretty much guaranteed to see you out of a job, this thread being Exhibit A.

None thought it particularly racist,

“Particularly”? So just a tiny bit racist, but not enough to be really offensive then?

To me it seemed immediately wrong, to my wife it seemed immediately wrong.

Do you mean that immediately to you and your wife it seemed wrong? What did you think after you’d given it some consideration? I think your stance is very harsh on the OP. Others above, Cougar (iirc) put more eloquently than I could, my take on how the comment was not racist. In a country where overt racism is still a day to day experience for many, I do not think the way this has been handled by the OP’s company is helpful in an overall aim to reduce racism. Language is very complex and it’s roots are often vague – I wouldn’t be totally confident that there are not other words or phrases that we use, that offend some group. For me intent needs to be taken into account and through education we move forward.

[Apologies for the poor structure of the above, I hope it was moderately intelligible.]