Is the Labour Government about to wreck the environment ?

I feel extremely privileged. And the reason being is that I have always earned a low wage (and at one point had two jobs) but managed to get priorities right. Everything that I own has been worked for and therefore appreciated.

It’s the getting the deposit together that is a huge problem for the young ones. They will have to give up nice lifestyles (fancy phones, going out for meals), and live with parents for longer than previous generations. Maybe live in a slightly less desirable area, flat share, get a loan from parents or other family members.

The other problem I see is badly built , mass produced starter homes (bad insulation, shoddy workmanship, tiny gardens where it might not be easy to grow food) Is leasehold still being used (that’s huge problem), where home owners can’t sell a property or move on due to extortionate maintenance  charges?

A load of stats to dig into

the crux is that the cost of houses compared to earnings has risen hugely.

UK House Price to income ratio and affordability

@piemonster – Water rates too and child care costs for some.

@bunnyhop – When did you buy your house? Is it just you or with a partner? Your priorities might not be the same as someone else’s. You can’t apply what you did, whenever that was, to what other people are looking at now. Houses and living in general costs more now than it used to. Staying with parents longer isn’t always an option either. It’s never as clear cut as people.make it out to be.

As stated, I earn a decent living and a three bed house is simply out of the question. That’s for someone who already owns a property. We might just be able to do it for a house that needs a lot of work. Only issue there is that we’d be mortgaged to the hilt. That’s a bad idea as you should only take on affordable debt in my opinion and also leaves nothing to fix up a house.

Updated…

Minimum wage after tax is £1632

Pension

Electricity

Water

Heating

Transport

Insurance

Food

Phone/Internet

Council Tax (£1348 I think)

Household items/furniture/goods repair/replacement

Household repairs/replacements (windows/doors/roof etc etc)

Kids/childcare

Clothes

Probably some other stuff

Then what you have is your accommodation pot.

If I’m being generous I’d say it is possible to do it on minimum wage and exist but not really live. No hobbies, no socialising and no real living going on. Not much of a life just work, home, sleep, bills, repeat until you shuffle off.

Apologies, the thread seems to have been derailed!

It’s the getting the deposit together that is a huge problem for the young ones. They will have to give up nice lifestyles (fancy phones, going out for meals), and live with parents for longer than previous generations. Maybe live in a slightly less desirable area, flat share, get a loan from parents or other family members.

The one I’m seeing more of, is simply opting to not have children.

Not much of a life just work, home, sleep, bills, repeat until you shuffle off.

That too has a cost, but that’s a cost in declining mental health and suicide rates.

@bunnyhop – When did you buy your house? Is it just you or with a partner? Your priorities might not be the same as someone else’s. You can’t apply what you did, whenever that was, to what other people are looking at now. Houses and living in general costs more now than it used to. Staying with parents longer isn’t always an option either. It’s never as clear cut as people.make it out to be.

Absolutely it’s changed and is very, very difficult. There are no easy answers. I was lucky as my first property (a one bedroom flat that I lived in for 14 yrs) was ‘only just’ affordable to me. I’ve done my fair share of living on soup for days on end.

Hubby and I have given a small sum to each young family member as and when they were at a point of saving a deposit for a property and we will continue to do so.

https://worksinprogress.co/issue/why-britain-doesnt-build/

It’s the getting the deposit together that is a huge problem for the young ones. They will have to give up nice lifestyles (fancy phones, going out for meals), and live with parents for longer than previous generations. Maybe live in a slightly less desirable area, flat share, get a loan from parents or other family members

And what if you have a job that is nowhere near your parents? What if no family members are in a position to loan you a deposit?

As for fancy lifestyles, I think young people today get a really bad press. I’m thinking of the graduate I work with. She’s taken a good job in Manchester on our graduate training scheme, which initially isn’t a massive salary, so she also works 2-3 shifts a week at a city centre pub, sometimes until 2am. She’s a proper grafter!

Her parents live in Derby and are in no position to be loaning her money for deposits. She pays a huge amount to live in a shared house in Salford. She has no car, nor ‘fancy’ phone

The prospect of her being able to save a deposit to buy anything within commutable distance of the Manchester office are about the same as the prospect of her being able to fly to the moon.

When I was her age I bought a 2 bedroom flat in a less salubrious part of Manchester, but it was affordable, even on my pretty low salary at the time, and within walking distance of my city centre job

Our generation don’t know we’re bloody born. Young people now have it far far harder than we ever did. Owning their own home is simply an impossible dream.

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According to that, house prices haven’t been as unaffordable (it’s only looking at wages and house costs, no other costs) as they are today since 1876.

this is also an extreme example of a very cheap house in a very cheap area.  Now look at two public servants living in an average or expensive area.

I don’t believe it’s an extreme example at all, £140k for a 2-bed terrace is not uncommon anywhere north of the Watford gap.

Looking at land registry house prices index, the average price for a terrace in the north west is £176k. That’ll include many terraces with three or more bedrooms so the average for a 2-bed terrace across the whole region probably isn’t far off £140k.

Have a look for yourself if you like:

https://landregistry.data.gov.uk/app/ukhpi/browse?from=2023-11-01&location=http%3A%2F%2Flandregistry.data.gov.uk%2Fid%2Fregion%2Fnorth-west&to=2024-11-01&lang=en

You used an example of a 107 000 house.

given the average price of all properties ( including flats) is close to 300 000 then yes its a cheap house in a cheap area

And no – terraced houses at that price are not common north of watford gap.  Lots of expensive housing areas north of watford gap.  Try Hull if you want to make a case based on outliers.  I believe its the cheapest place in the UK 😉

£275k is the cheapest terraced option where I used to live in Sheffield (Ecclesall) and £210k for near where I lived in Sharrow, where the dead guy in the bushes at the end of our road shocked no one, houses get their windows smashed out from the inside by the classy occupants round that way.

Interesting article dakuan

You used an example of a 107 000 house.

given the average price of all properties ( including flats) is close to 300 000 then yes its a cheap house in a cheap area

And no – terraced houses at that price are not common north of watford gap. Lots of expensive housing areas north of watford gap. Try Hull if you want to make a case based on outliers. I believe its the cheapest place in the UK ?

No I used an example of £125k in Scarborough and £140k in Bolton (to represent Greater Manchester)

Minimum wage is around £24k now so even a single person on minimum wage, applying a 4.5x multiplier could get a mortgage for £107k. A couple both working should be able to afford that quite easily.

Disagree, minimum wage takes home is about £1.6k – £1.7k

Repayments on a £107k mortgage at 4.5% for 30 years are £542.

Yep as it says that what a single person on minimum wage could get a mortgage for.

The remainder would be funded by a deposit as is the normal practice when buying a house in the UK.

a £33 000 deposit?  Saved on minimum wage while renting? ( For the 140 000 house)

“When I was a lad” FFS

I left uni earning 15k one bed starter houses were around 40k

Now I earn c40k and the same house costs 250k

And the solution is cutting avocado on toast. Have a F**ing word with yourself.!!!!

a £33 000 deposit? Saved on minimum wage while renting? ( For the 140 000 house

Welcome to the real world.

Don’t be too harsh on bunnyhop – I took a rather different meaning from her post which is that to save up for a house deposit you need to put your life on hold for many years.

TLDR – we need to build a shit load of council properties …

There is a recent Rest Is Money podcast with Dan Hewitt who did a documentary series on ITV about social housing crisis

His belief, after making the doc, is the only route out of the social housing problem and the housing crisis more generally is to build a shit load of council properties – sort out the bottom and the rest of the market will correct over time

Fundamentally there is a massive market failure caused by under supply at the bottom (maybe bottom  half of the market) which pushes up prices – both rental and to buy – to the absolute max society can carry at the expense of the wider economy.  All the resource tied in by housing inflation above general inflation over many years is lost to the economy forever and is a drag on growth

I’m not being harsh on bunnyhop, cos she’s lovely, so sorry if that’s how it came across.

I was just giving an example of a person in their mid 20’s I work with and how the financial and housing situation they now face is just another planet from when we were in their position.

There’s also the small matter of graduates leaving Uni with £50,000+ of debt hanging over them, which we certainly didn’t have to contend with. Once they get into jobs with decent salaries then those repayments kick in too.

When looking at the price of rents in Manchester, which are increasing year on year at a ridiculous rate, saving a deposit of tens of thousands of pounds is simply inconceivable 

Theres also the impact on the wider economy. If you’re paying an enormous chunk of your salary in rent and being expected to save thousands for a house deposit too, then you’re not doing much else other than existing. You certainly won’t be doing much to support local businesses

When we were in our 20’s we were keeping several medium sized breweries in business, not to mention Peruvian farmers 🙂

Is leasehold still being used

It is.

I took a look at the Oxfordshire town I spent around 15 years living near.

The cheapest property is on at £73.5k, but that is shared ownership and you only get 36% of the property for that. And it’s a 2 bed apartment.

That’s an area with decent employment rates, something Scunners cant match. That’s the catch with cheaper places to live, they’re usually cheaper for a reason, and one of those reason is usually the availability of employment.

Even in the last 15 years things have gotten significantly worse for new buyers, any sudden spikes in interest rates is going to send a lot of people and families into homelessness. People shouldn’t be living on the edge to afford the cheapest homes possible, because they cant deal with any knocks if it’s that tight.

wisnae you I was thinking of in particular.Binners

Just out of interest Binners whats a one bed flat rent for in manchester these days?  Here £1000 pcm is about the norm.  Cheapest I have seen is £880.  I have seen up to £1300 pcm for a one bed
room in a shared flat is often £600+ but highly variable ranging from £400 – £850 from a quick glance at adverts

Thank you T.J.

Binners – I know that there are many, many young great people in our country who work extremely hard and have no wonderful caring relatives to give them a helping hand, I’m not daft (well not all the time). Its going to be very hard for some of them. But some quite frankly are spoilt rotten and don’t/ won’t think of their future.

But we find the same argument about old people/pensioners/baby boomers, all supposedly living on vast savings, finally salary pensions and spending their retirements cruising around the world.

In other words this housing crisis is about people.

When ‘I were a lad’ the price of housing was indeed cheap compared to today,  but only cheap if you had  saved a deposit and earned a decent wage and could pay the mortgage. Hopefully people like me who did have 2 jobs, worked 7 days a week for 2 and half years, didn’t have a holiday in that time and managed to buy a small 1 bed flat (no heating!), will be able to help ‘some’ young people, who weren’t as lucky as I was and didn’t have the opportunities I was afforded.

Probably about the same TJ

The upshot is that we need to build shitloads of houses and they’ve got to go somewhere. I’m also very dubious about what’s being referred to as ‘green belt’. I live north of Manchester in what is a post-industrial landscape. People are getting precious and objecting to proposed housing developments which are on what is essentially waste land.

The most vociferous of the objectees seem to be those in the newest houses. There’s a lot of ‘pull that ladder up behind yourself’ going on

a £33 000 deposit?  Saved on minimum wage while renting? ( For the 140 000 house)

That was in response to somebody saying: “Home ownership within Greater Manchester is simply completely out of reach of a huge swathe of the population”.

I don’t know how you’d define “huge swathe” but would’ve thought a large majority of the population can afford a £140k house.

Our single minimum wage worker would find it difficult if not impossible to raise that £33k deposit, but single minimum wage workers are a minority and let’s be honest, if you’re on minimum wage and living alone things are going to be tight regardless.

The upshot is that we need to build shitloads of houses and they’ve got to go somewhere. 

Density is the most overlooked factor. You can’t build those squillion *homes* and have them all as semi detached houses without taking lumps out of the countyside. Turn Harrow into Marleybone and you’ll have the numbers.

[binners]

binners

Full Member

I once saw Angela Rayner taking a disposable barbecue and a bottle of Lambrini onto the moorland above Rivington in the middle of summer

Quite sensible – the Lambrini can be used to put out the BBQ when finished, and being in a glass bottle thst can be recycled, rather than taking a 2 litre plastic bottle that probably got packaged in Indonesia and shipped to the UK, only for the plastic to end up in land fill after the local council fails to recycle plastics.

I once saw Angela Rayner taking a disposable barbecue and a bottle of Lambrini onto the moorland above Rivington in the middle of summer

Quite sensible – the Lambrini can be used to put out the BBQ when finished, and being in a glass bottle thst can be recycled, rather than taking a 2 litre plastic bottle that probably got packaged in Indonesia and shipped to the UK, only for the plastic to end up in land fill after the local council fails to recycle plastics.

but would’ve thought a large majority of the population can afford a £140k house.

I think that is highly unlikely – and the vast majority of the population do not have access to houses that cheap anyway

but single minimum wage workers are a minority

Are they? And where are you getting that information from? Is this from the same source as your mythical affordable homes?

But some quite frankly are spoilt rotten and don’t/ won’t think of their future.

And why should they? They graduate with a mountain of debt, have sky high rent which makes it impossible to save, and will never have a decent pension. Faced with that it’s hardly surprising that some choose to live for the moment.

Are they? And where are you getting that information from? Is this from the same source as your mythical affordable homes

“The Low Pay Commission estimates that there were around 1.6 million workers paid at or below the minimum wage in April 2023, around 5% of all UK workers”

National Minimum Wage statistics

House prices sources were the land registry house prices index which is considered the most authoritative source on UK house prices, since it records the details of every transaction. And Rightmove, which lists live asking prices.

Is there something wrong with the quality of these sources that make you think the numbers they report are mythical? They look pretty good quality sources to me. But if you know of better ones feel free to share, I’d be interested to take a look.

“The Low Pay Commission estimates that there were around 1.6 million workers paid at or below the minimum wage in April 2023, around 5% of all UK workers”

I have my doubts as to the value of that stat. If I look at care or retail many of the jobs are a few pence over minimum wage, and as the minimum wage has ben massively increased over the last few years, you are having an odd situation where some graduate entry jobs are barely paying above minimum wage. The only groups who have seen decent pay rises are those at the tiop and those at the bottom.

This crap about “young people just need to scrimp and save” really needs knocking on the head. House (un)affordability is in a completely different league these days to even when I was starting out let alone the generation above. Doubly so when you include skyrocketing rents etc that make it basically impossible to save significantly. There were loads of perfectly acceptable flats around 2x salary when I bought my first place (which I actually made a loss on in a minor house price crash but with the small sums involved, saving the loss in equity was a minor annoyance not a major threat to my financial stability).

Also, this thread title is very weird. Was it meant sarcastically or is it just a rather silly attempt at trolling?

Is there something wrong with the quality of these sources that make you think the numbers they report are mythical? They look pretty good quality sources to me. But if you know of better ones feel free to share, I’d be interested to take a look.

Its the conclusions you draw that are unrealistic

I took a rather different meaning from her post which is that to save up for a house deposit you need to put your life on hold for many years

Which is what I did back in the day – worked my butt off for 3 years, doing all the overtime I could and no holidays and practically no social life. The main difference being back then you could actually do it in 3 years.

The upshot is that we need to build shitloads of houses and they’ve got to go somewhere.

Why bother? You and others keep banging on how houses aren’t affordable anyway.

What price do you think these shit load of houses need to be to located to make them affordable and do you think that the land can be purchased and house built for that cost?