Is steel real?

As another engineer this continues to drive me crazy. I see it in other fields too. I don’t understand why so many engineers massively over-simplify things that are outside their specialist field.

You don’t, you all over *complicate* your specialist field in order to keep the membership exclusive but you forget to do it when dealing with something outside your experience. It’s like doctors spending seven years learning various latin words for “hurty” and “swollen” so we think they’re cleverer than we is.

I owned – though not quite at the same time – aluminium, steel and titanium versions of the first Ragley hardtails with pretty much identical components. They were all designed, apparently to maximise the benefits of the material used, most obviously the aluminium Mmmbop used drain-pipe sized tubes and was brutally  harsh. The steel Blue Pig had noticeably more spring/compliance/whatever to it, but was quite heavy. The Ti was a little springier than the steel frame, but quite a lot lighter and had something really special about it, ‘thing’; or whatever you want to call it. I still have it and still ride it.

I don’t for a minute think that qualifies me to make any sort of objective judgement, but that’s how they felt to me and the difference between the aluminium and steel frames was significant. I also owned a steel-framed Voodoo Wanga, which was nicely compliant. On the road, Lynskey made, Planet X ti frame, which still rides beautifully even with narrow, by modern standards, 25mm tyres.

Anyway, I absolutely love my gen 3 FlareMAX. It has a lovely warm feel to the ride, that’s hard to describe. I don’t know whether that’s down to the steel front triangle or not, but it feels special every time I ride it. Most alloy and carbon full sus I’ve ridden just seem a bit bland to me. Not bad, but kind of anonymous, but equally, that’s just me and I may simply be deluding myself.

That video Kelvin posted is worth a watch. Really interesting.

KTM use steel for the Moto Gp bikes chassis, despite having suspension costing 6 figures. They’ve probably spent way more on R&D than the entire mtb industry. Suspension is pretty pants on a non vertical plane, so the chassis allows it to maintain some give and avoid chatter. It allows them to adapt it a lot easier than alloy. Carbon can do that depending on the layering.

It’s like having spokes too tight on a wheel.

TLDR

Full suspension though I’m not sure I grasp the theory and compared with aluminium it’s heavy. As I see it, the “flex” and compliance should come from the suspension action, which will move more readily than the frame, you don’t want much if any lateral deflection as it can cause binding in the bearings of the pivot (vertically compliant, laterally stiff to coin a phrase).

Pump tyres up to 40 psi… ride .. let down to your usual ride.
Does it make more diff on a HT? Yep and different but its still a desirable characteristic (pretty much)

Swap a XC tyre like a Exo or Exo+ for a gravity at the same pressure…
Definitely different, heavier .. its still a desirable characteristic in some circumstances and not in others…

Someone probably already said but you can weld Steels… (stainless can be a pain admittedly) … I can’t really see when welding and heat treating a broken alloy one is financially viable?

I think the Orange Subzero I has as a youngun put me off aluminium hardtails for a long time

Utterly brutal and I still cracked it

That said, I realise modern alu frames with modern parts are very different. I still buy steel almost exclusively, but I accept this is largely for aesthetic reasons, and the practical fact that single speeds are always easier to find in steel

Some steel full sussers are stunning:

practical fact that single speeds are always easier to find in steel

That’s because the Venn diagram for “likes single speeds” and “likes steel bikes” is a small circle inside a bigger one.

What’s the second one?
There’s some to about the starling that doesn’t work for me, the very noodly back end and the huge headtube brace just don’t sit properly IMO.

Some steel full sussers are stunning:

I want this more than any other at the moment.

I have precisely zero use for it.

Dear lord Tom.

That it’s hideous. Actually I think I’m going to report that post in the interest of other people’s occular health

Agreed. It’s almost like a not very good at art kid’s attempt to draw an Orange!

Anyway steel is real but Ti is betterer.

It’s almost like a not very good at art kid’s attempt to draw an Orange!

It’s worse than that. It’s like an orange designer’s concept drawing for an ebike.

tomhoward
Full Member
Some steel full sussers are stunning:

I want this more than any other at the moment.

BITD I had an Avalanche equipped Brooklyn Racelink….

@dangeourbrain

It’s from here:
https://projectxii.nl/

Looking back, the Starling Beady Little Eye isn’t a beautiful as I used to think it is. I do prefer full sussers when they look like hardtails

That it’s hideous.

I like it. Reminds me of a Brooklyn Machine Works. Like Tom I have no use for it what so ever.

can you elaborate why Cotic rejected all the carbon swing arm prototypes?

Looked good… but no ride benefits, packaging easier with metal, and considered not worth the additional environmental impact [ all in regards to the droplink bikes, the balance of all these things will be different for others, especially for the more mass production brands ].

Daffy – The forums and comments sections are full of engineers in unrelated fields saying that steel bikes can’t possibly feel different to other materials “because science”. Yet subjective reports from people who have actually ridden them say otherwise.

How do you reconcile that? Are we all gullible fools? Or could you perhaps not have the grasp of the subject you think you do?

This comes back to my earlier comment in this thread – people who are not basing their argument on formal expressions are not being scientific. Meaning statements expressed with formally defined vocabulary, syntax, and semantics that relate to explicit, quantified, and measurable criterion. Just because somebody claims to be an engineer doesn’t make their argument scientific.

Reports from people based on their practical riding experience are not necessarily subjective – they can be objective.

I’d suggest that when considering different frame materials their characteristics at dissipating/damping high frequency is significant. Vibrations up to about 20Hz are transmitted strongly into the body (resonance frequencies of the body are typically between 9 and 16 Hz), we know that shocks on bikes don’t respond fast enough to eliminate higher frequencies e.g. above 5Hz, however, other parts of the bike including the frame can react and help dampen frequencies about 5Hz.

I have a pair of super rigid cro-mo handlebars from an 80’s MTB. Riding with that I can really feel the vibrations travel up my arms, my upper body feels fatigued after the ride and my wrists are still aching the next day. If I repeat the same ride on the same bike but with alu or carbon handlebars then objectively, my upper body does not feel fatigued and my wrists do not ache.

Steel Full Suspension Bikes

In my experience, the frame material is only really relevant when it comes down to aesthetics, cost & weight.

A bike can be engineered to be comfy or stiff in either steel, aluminium/alloy or carbon. Same for quality build and finish.

I’ve a steel Ritchey Logic road frame that is very comfy and relatively light. It has picked up a dent quite easily though.

I’ve a steel Stooge single speed frame and it is a thing of beauty and is pretty comfy but also very strong but not light.

I’ve an On-one Hello Dave that is the stiffest riding bike I’ve ever ridden.

I like the look of steel frames, I like the price of aluminium/alloy frames, I like the weight of carbon frames.

The visual link to BMW is the primary source of my lust. I wanted one more than oxygen when I first got into MTB, and was fearless enough to ride it vaguely properly.

Still think they/it looks amazing, y’all are wrong.

I don’t really understand steel full sus bikes, maybe I would it they were cheaper than their aluminium/alloy alternatives. They can look lovely though, IMO.

Reeb springs to mind as an alternative to that Curtis but mega £££££ too.

@daveyboywonder

I believe I bought your Curtis s1 from you…she now lives in den Haag. She’s happy 🙂

Nothing else to add to the thread…

I ride a Kingdom Hex made from titanium

Did you have to post that! There’s one on eBay in my size. And I don’t even ride FS (rigid SS is my thing).

I do have two road bikes that have identical geometry, but one is an alloy frame with steel fork and the other a fully bling professional light carbon (Defy Advanced SL). Apart from the >15x difference in cost of the frame, and the 2 kilos in weight, on the road they ride the same.

Reeb springs to mind as an alternative to that Curtis but mega £££££ too.

Oh dear.
I’ve friends in Lyon I need to visit.
And they have an XXL demo one.
And I could always try gorilla gravity whilst I’m there.
Then alchemy and spot are just up the road from Amy’s house.
And so are yeti come to think of it.
And I’m sure my wife wouldn’t mind a week’s holiday bring given over to me riding demo bikes…
[adds Reeb cycles to the list of things I wish I’d never googled]

I don’t really understand steel full sus bikes, maybe I would it they were cheaper than their aluminium/alloy alternatives

i suspect they are more expensive because in general thay aren’t mass produced and tend to be made in the west.

And I’m sure my wife wouldn’t mind a week’s holiday bring given over to me riding demo bikes…

you could do that, or just order a Reeb, collect it when you arrive and spend the holiday riding it. you’re wife definitely wouldn’t mind.

you’re wife definitely wouldn’t mind

No, but she almost undoubtedly would say “oh, do you need to declare that?” just as I’m about to get to the customs desk

Then look really really guilty having realised what she just said.

Then feel terrible as her look of guilt has me taken into a side room by a large chap with some marigolds who is certainly not looking in the right place for a bicycle fame.

The coal 84 is a lovely looking bike in steel.

I’d love a ride on one.

https://www.coalbicycles.com/coal-84

Then feel terrible as her look of guilt has me taken into a side room by a large chap with some marigolds who is certainly not looking in the right place for a bicycle fame.

tell her that she doesn’t need to feel guilty, they use lube these days!

KTM use steel for the Moto Gp bikes chassis, despite having suspension costing 6 figures. They’ve probably spent way more on R&D than the entire mtb industry. Suspension is pretty pants on a non vertical plane, so the chassis allows it to maintain some give and avoid chatter. It allows them to adapt it a lot easier than alloy. Carbon can do that depending on the layering.

KTM use steel for MotoGP as they know material makes naff all difference, but the ability to modify geometry quickly and cheaply is worth a lot. There was an article in The Race in 2022 which said exactly this.  Even then KTM have been seen testing aluminium this year in order to lose weight.

But why? As an engineer surely you understand that it’s easier to bend a long tube than a short linkage if both are built to withstand similar forces before failure?

As another engineer this continues to drive me crazy. I see it in other fields too. I don’t understand why so many engineers massively over-simplify things that are outside their specialist field.

Yeah, I’m just an aerospace structural engineer with a PhD in structural optimisation, lightweight design and advanced manufacturing, so this is well outside my specialist field…

I specifically stated joints/linkages.  The bolted joints of the linkages coupled to the shape of the linkages and their load carrying capabilities at various stages in their kinematics compromise the stiffness frame by far greater degree than the elastic behaviour of the tubes.

The other geometric feature which may lead to more compliance in many steel frames vs carbon frames is the bottom bracket area.  Steel frames like the Curtis above still have a triangle  which allows for more movement at the bottom bracket rather than the irregular parallelogram seen in most carbon frames.  Simplistically this changes the relationships of tension and compression in a pin jointed truss structure (which a bicycle really is), but in a more complex manner it essentially alters the flexural modulus of the down tube design in the area of the joint to the BB area.

I’ve got a steel full-sus bike (a Starling).

Fake news.  Steel is real but birds aren’t.

Steel is real but birds aren’t

Well obviously, it’s made of metal. (which makes it easier to get the camera in)

Fake news. Steel is real but birds aren’t.

Actually, I’ve got as Bird as well.

Or have I?