Is anyone actually opposed to legalisation of marijuana use?

I’m opposed to it:

– In Colorado the amount of cannabis being smoked by young people has actually increased since it was legalised as measured by frequency of use
– I have seen good friends develop severe mental health problems as a consequence of prolonged cannabis use. In one of these cases the person has gone from having a great job / life to no job and a very tough existence.
– A good friend who is a Psychiatrist has seen his case mix for acute admissions change rapidly over the last 15 years with a majority of younger patients now having chronic mental health issues due to cannabis use. In many cases the symptoms cannot be reversed.
– Consumption of cannaboids and the effect it has on reaction times / awareness is hard to predict / measure. This means people are potentially a greater risk to others when driving / operating machinery / working in safety critical environments.
– The legalisation may also encourage the illegal trade to drop prices / increase strength in order to retain business. This makes many of the above points even worse.

tpbiker – Member

Where the hell do you live?

or, what makes you think it’s hard to find weed/mdma/coke in your area?

imho, legalise marijuana, and regualate/tax it. The current situation clearly doesn’t work, and it’s blatantly hypocritical.

– I have seen good friends develop severe mental health problems as a consequence of prolonged cannabis use. In one of these cases the person has gone from having a great job / life to no job and a very tough existence.
– A good friend who is a Psychiatrist has seen his case mix for acute admissions change rapidly over the last 15 years with a majority of younger patients now having chronic mental health issues due to cannabis use. In many cases the symptoms cannot be reversed.

Both of these issues could be addressed if reliable, well researched products were available instead of the high return, blow your **** mind varieties that criminals prefer to peddle

I am/was one of those kids you talk about..
Keeping the current system will not address your reactionary concerns..
Your stance is part of the problem, not part of the solution

Colorado’s Teen Marijuana Usage Dips after Legalization[/url]

tpbiker – Member

Where the hell do you live?

I grew up in middleclassville with an offlicence on every corner but as an obviously underage kid, I didn’t have easy access to alcohol. Weed was easy though. The difference is, a completely illegal retailer doesn’t worry about losing its licence. (also, my made Pedals could fit enough for everyone in his pencil case, not quite so easy with 3 litre bottles of white lightning)

I worked in kids homes for years and saw first hand what a damaging drug it can be, both in teams of psychological impacts and also as a gateway drug.

I oppose legalising anything that has the potential to do so much harm

like alcohol?

or watching telly for 4+ hours every night?

or cars?

or etc.

(lots of things that do a LOT of harm are legal, some, like excessive telly, aren’t even regulated – you don’t have to be 18 to buy a telly)

i know way more people who’s health has been destroyed by excessive telly, booze and unlimited car use than those whose health has been affected in any obvious way by marijuana.

I worked in kids homes for years and saw first hand what a damaging drug it can be, both in teams of psychological impacts and also as a gateway drug.

I oppose legalising anything that has the potential to do so much harm

brilliant!
So you’re saying keep it illegal, keep the production in the hands of criminals leaving the user to smoke whatever they can get their hands on (I’ve never met a dealer who says ‘try this shit I’ve got, it’s not very strong, hardly any perceptible effect at all in fact but it may just reduce your anxiety a bit’)

The illegality of cannabis also makes it more seductive to the rebellious type of kid that uses it..
The illegality of it also prevents kids from going home to seek help from their parents when they’re unwell because DRUGS…
Kids want to be cool and smoke dope, but when all that is available is high strength dealer gear with unknown side effects they haven’t much choice

yunki – I think people are saying ‘it’s complicated’.

Legalising drugs does not stop bad stuff happening (as we can see with alcohol) – it just introduces different problems.

I don’t see it introducing different problems..

Problems currently exist that could be reduced with a bit of common sense and applied logic

Imagine this

some youth who may previously have tried generic UK skunk, could go into the shop and as for something gentle, or say ‘wow, I tried that variety last weekend and it made me feel horrible, really paranoid and delusional.. I was hoping for something relaxing, could you recommend something more suitable for me’

Point of order – in the UK grass is mixed with tobacco and smoked maybe 90% of the time. This confuses the addictiveness of the one with the compulsivity of the other. Another point of order – if this “super skunk*” is so strong, you would add less in the J. Or you wouldn’t, but then you’d just have another made from Thai if that’s all you had so I dont see the issue.

Based on my experiences and living now in NL, Im sure that cannabis should be regulated and sold, according to strength primary cannabinoid makeup and purity (god knows what is poured into illegal grows**). You can tax it, too.

Personally I’m not keen on dabs, vaporised hits of oilsmoke. Thats a bit too hardcore for me. The rest of it should not be illegal, especially as there’s plenty of more harmful drugstuffs, both legal and even prescribed.

*pretty sure this is really quite the misnomer. Common strong strains are mostly “haze”, or “cheese”. Cheese is a rasta strain that is less overwhelming physically while still promoting metal effects.

**in london a few years back weed was coming sprayed with glass sand to add weight and make it look like crystals. Silicosis, FFS.

Bimbler – some reports do show an increase.. here’s one from this year:

http://kutv.com/news/local/study-teen-pot-use-increasing-in-colorado-after-legalization

– past-month pot use for teens 12-17, has increased significantly.
– drug related expulsions and suspensions have increased by 40 percent

I don’t see it introducing different problems..

that doesn’t mean there wouldn’t be any.

for example – what would the amount for different drugs that would be accepted for operating machinery, driving PSV’s, HGV’s, cars, working in an operating theatre etc?

We’ve seen above that there doesn’t appear to be a ‘safe’ level of use – it affects different people in different ways.

I think wwaswas has summed this up, perhaps a review of the data from states who’ve legalized marijuana would be a sensible approach.

There’s also another factor, that modern weed is cross bred to increase potency of the THC content. IIRC today some strains are considerably stronger than the stuff smoked at Woodstock in the 60s. We could possibly have an issue whereby certain strains would be illegal, but such a ban would be impossible to enforce without stringent (and expensive) testing.

But there’s definitely a case for demystifying the issue and having sensible, grown up conversations. When I were a lad, most of my friends smoked it anyway, but because drugs were very, very bad they couldn’t discuss the issue with their parents. As has been seen with the issues of teenage pregnancy, simply closing our ears and shouting “No!” won’t make the problems go away.

It’s often pointed out that STW is a place for folk to argue their point and ignore opposing views. I have to say that I’m “naturally” against legalisation but I’m finding many of the Pro posts quite compulsive. It help that most are making their point without rancour. If a similar discussion was put forward to the population in general then perhaps we’d see more support amongst politicians too.

or watching telly for 4+ hours every night?

I’ve not seen someone attempt suicide before as a result of watching TV. I have seen a 16 year old kid plunge a knife into his stomach though after a 6 month decline into terrifying paranoia.

If you support the argument that making it legal makes it less attractive to kids, then why not legalise heroin, burglary, speeding or rape?

Bad things that do harm should not be legal.

for example – what would the amount for different drugs that would be accepted for operating machinery, driving PSV’s, HGV’s, cars, working in an operating theatre etc?

We’ve seen above that there doesn’t appear to be a ‘safe’ level of use – it affects different people in different ways.

fair point… so there would be some complications that would need regulation and legislation

Again franksinatra – my point stands.. if we take away the illegal dealer mentality of stronger is better then we are reducing harm..
And under the current system.. kids are still getting messed up

PJM1974 – Member
We could possibly have an issue whereby certain strains would be illegal, but such a ban would be impossible to enforce without stringent (and expensive) testing.

given a choice, it seems people prefer a nice pint of 4% ale, rather than the novelty beers like ‘Tactical Nuclear Penguin’.

i see no reason why we can’t trust people to exercise the same sense.

(they’ll try it once, throw up, and quietly move onto something easier. or maybe a coffee comparison for you – I don’t like espresso roast, i much prefer something pansy-ass like Taylor’s Lazy Sunday.)

they’ll try it once, throw up, and quietly move onto something easier

or, with MDMA, try it once and die.

franksinatra – Member
If you support the argument that making it legal makes it less attractive to kids, then why not legalise heroin, burglary, speeding or rape?

really?

i’m not even going to bother.

but yeah, legalise heroin, and give addicts prescribed amounts in a clinic – even get them on a slowly reducing dose. Much more effective than a Methodone regime. You’d kill the illegal trade in Heroin, as there’d be no point selling addicts something they’ll get for free at a clinic – where’ they’ll also get a cup of tea.

and once no-one is selling heroin (there’d be no point at all), you’d reduce the numbers of people getting addicted.

Drug deaths in Portugal – where all drugs are decriminalised for personal use.

Of course the rate of cannabis deaths is 0 as the LD50 (the median lethal dose) is..

At present it is estimated that marijuana’s LD-50 is around1:20,000 or 1:40,000. In layman terms this means that in order to induce death a marijuana smoker would have to consume 20,000 to 40,000 times as much marijuana as is contained in one marijuana cigarette. NIDA-supplied marijuana cigarettes weigh approximately .9 grams. A smoker would theoretically have to consume nearly 1,500 pounds of marijuana within about fifteen minutes to induce a lethal response.

From here[/url]

Compare that to booze where the LD50 is purchasable in any supermarket for what £15?

Liberty innit.

ahwiles – that’s a perfectly valid point, the market in weed is driven by demand, so the stronger stuff is extremely popular on the street. If it were regulated and the THC content displayed then users could make an informed choice.

My concern would be if a progressive government went for the half-hearted approach, based on the knowledge that certain strains of ganj were more harmful to susceptible users than others, it would be very hard to police.

But I agree, most people would smoke some Pineapple Express, throw a massive whitey and switch to something sensible.

don’t forget that THC is only one of 2 important compounds.

everyone forgets about the CBD.

roughly speaking, THC trips you out, CBD chills you out.

it seems people quite like the effects of CBD, which has also demonstrated anti-psychotic effects. But the effects of THC alone are really quite unpleasant – including psychosis. But it’s THC that we’re all fixated on, and that’s the compound found in elevated quantities in Skunk, etc.

@wwaswas

Most people who try MDMA have a really nice night, they don’t die. Sometimes people die from cashew nut allergies, but most people just enjoy them…

If MDMA was legal, you could just buy a testkit for allergies, juat sayin’.

That said awhiles… some people actually like the trippy effect of THC

AND… the combinations of THC and CBD in varying ratios can also produce an extraordinary variety of effects

The issue here is having the choice to find something that works for you individually, that has been tested and measured by the supplier, and can be reliably obtained from a trustworthy retailer rather than being forced into buying generic mass produced illegal superweed, which is all that is widely available in the UK currently

People have been working very hard on the science behind it for some time now, and it would be illogical to let all that research go to waste

Bimbler – some reports do show an increase.. here’s one from this year:

http://kutv.com/news/local/study-teen-pot-use-increasing-in-colorado-after-legalization

– past-month pot use for teens 12-17, has increased significantly.
– drug related expulsions and suspensions have increased by 40 percent

Here’s all the meat and links for the survey in the report I posted above, have you got a link for the KUTV stuff?

yunki – Member

That said awhiles… some people actually like the trippy effect of THC

AND… the combinations of THC and CBD in varying ratios can also produce different effects

The issue here is having the choice to find something that works for you individually, that has been tested and measured by the supplier, and can be reliably obtained from a trustworthy retailer rather than buying mass produced illegal superweed, which is all that is widely available in the UK currently

quite.

I’m not against legalisation per se but I’m cautious about people having unregulated access to drugs.

No one seems to be arguing for unfettered access to medicinal drugs so there’s clearly a role for restricted supply of certain chemical combinations.

have you got a link for the KUTV stuff?

*smirk* 🙂

Right… I’m off out on the bike…
It’s a lovely day, but all this debate has radically increased my stress levels

If I lived in a more enlightened country, I may have had a little tincture of my chosen medicinal marijuana preparation and peacefully gotten on with some household jobs.. I haven’t really got room in my schedule today, but as it is I feel that I really need to go let off some steam

thank heaven for bikes! 🙂

Is criminalisation even a deterrent? Doesn’t seem like it from this thread and the world generally. Is the establishment simply wasting its time and money?

No. And then,for the most part, yes.

Is the establishment simply wasting its time and money?

no, it’s worse than that, the establishment is wasting our time and money.

Apropos of nothing but the first person to buy recreational cannabis in Colorado

😀

Incidentally an ex-marine who served two tours in Iraq and suffers PTSD, uses weed instead of Xanax or other benzos

thank heaven for bikes!

Be careful, statistically someone may die today whilst riding a bike.

But yes, cycling is my medication of (free)choice.

And don’t forget too the terrible attrition of Equasy, as David Nutt put it or horse riding which is 30 times more dangerous than taking E/MDMA

David Nutt’s book ‘Drugs:without the hot air’ is definitely worth a read whether you are for or against prohibition.

Evidence based harm reduction is the agenda, and he goes into good detail on the over reporting of MDMA deaths, marijuana/psychosis links, and what’s happening in Portugal and the Netherlands.

Bimbler – I would expect ( based on other countries experience) an increase in usage straight away followed by a gradual falling off of usage in future years.

Total no-brainer. Legalise everything (yes, everything), use the money saved to educate and treat those who can’t use them responsibly with proper effective treatment. If you want to know why it’s still illegal, think for a microsecond about the lobbying power of the industries which stand to lose out if drugs were legalised. Monopolies don’t like having their license to print money removed.