[Closed] Interval training. Tell me the basics.

This should be interesting. For your requirements I would say that just going out and riding your bike as and when you can is a far better option than interval training.

FAST slow FAST slow FAST slow FAST slow FAST slow.

2:1 work to rest ratio at 70% of your MHR.

That's a reasonable place to start anyway. As you get fitter increase the level you work at, lengthen the interval and decrease the rest.

Seriously though, I'd just find a few local hills, some short and some long, and attack them repeatedly. Six times each 🙂 SbZ I think he already just goes out and rides his bikes.

[url= http://www.mtb-marathon.co.uk/training/15.php ]I've found this site helpful[/url]

Tabata training, 20 seconds, 10 seconds rest repeat x8 or until you puke.

Better on foot or with a kettlebell, than a bike.

Molgrips - In this case given that he is training for long rides I would say that speed endurance is what is required rather than upping top end speed. With irregular training in a fair to middling level of rider simply going out and riding the bike as and when is far better than trying to do intervals.

If you haven't got the dedication to follow a proper plan then you're also going to struggle with doing intervals, cos they hurt like **** when done to the max....
As some clever bugger once said -"If you don't know where you're going,how will you know when you get there"

Well it depends on what you want to achieve. The term 'interval training' seems to be thrown around a lot on forums as the holy grail of training methods, without anyone really specifying what kinds of intervals they are talking about and what they want to achieve by it.

If you are doing 3 hour trailquests with some long-distance endurance races I don't see how the extra power gained from them would really help you, as your focus is really on lasting the distance rather than the short, snappy bursts of power interval training develops; more applicable in an XC race where there is a sprint off the start, a sprint to the line at the end or some short sharp climbs. Maybe I'm wrong.

Interval training works on the principle of doing short, sharp bursts at your maximal (or very near-maximal) intensity, between moments of cruising when you allow your heart rate to drop to aerobic levels once again. This allows for more cumulative time spent at your top intensity than would be possible were you to simply go flat out non-stop (which probably wouldn't last more than a few minutes).

There are many different types of interval training. For example, climbing intervals are very important to XC racers (and in my [unprofessional] opinion seem to be the most applicable to you), which as the name suggest involve smashing to the top of a not-too-long climb up, cruising back down to allow your heart rate to calm, then doing it again even faster and harder, up to ten times. Many races are won on who can climb, so this will give you a distinct advantage of your opponents. Acceleration sprints are designed to help you learn to accelerate and increase limb speed, and consist of a marked out 150m stretch or so of flat ground, where you try to gradually accelerate until for the last 50m or so you are going maximally. Sprint intervals are the same but the emphasis is on sprinting flat out rather than a gradual acceleration. In each case of course you have that recovery spin in between each interval.

It all depends on what you want to achieve you see...

SBZ, 700km last month, so, as I said, I think I'm doing OK for "going out and riding your bike as and when you can".

Maybe interval training isn't what I want then. Like Alejandro says, it's regarded as the default advanced training method, so I thought maybe there would be some variation of it that would suit me.

What I meant by not having the dedication to follow a pre-planned training routine is that I don't want to be tied to a plan that says "Day 5. 1 hour of 5 minute intervals with 10 minute rests" or whatever. I might find that on day 5 I'm working late or have got other things planned and can't fit it in.
I've got no problem with the dedication needed to commit to attacking a hill at 100%.
Most of my "training" is done on my commute by taking a longer hillier route home.

Boxelder, thanks for the link. That's the sort of thing I was looking for as a starting point.

With irregular training in a fair to middling level of rider simply going out and riding the bike as and when is far better than trying to do intervals

Not sure I agree. I seem to remember reading that short fast intervals can add significantly to your endurance by creating more headroom. But it's easy enough for the OP to try and see how he feels. Simply 'riding more' could well be much more difficult depending on his time constraints.

A few seconds of googling provided this link

http://www.sparkpeople.com/resource/fitness_articles.asp?id=621

And there are many more describing the benefits of HIIT for endurance training. I was initially sceptical when I heard about this but then I did some learning 🙂

May I suggest a different angle of approach to getting better at racing then. How about working on building effiency into your riding? As in working on choosing smoother faster lines, pumping the trail for all its worth etc.

And get your core in the best possible condition.

And (2) who was it said that it never gets easier you just go faster? So ride faster and go further on your hilly commute.

2nd core training. Makes a big difference to your efficiency IME.
Get a personal trainer to give you an outline plan. Core isn't just a six pack, it's stomach, sides and back.
Also worth considering swimming as cross training and/or flexibility training to help stop muscles getting sore in the middle of long sessions.

I seem to remember reading that short fast intervals can add significantly to your endurance by creating more headroom

I don't think "building efficency into my riding" is an option.
I rode Wiggle 6 on Sunday and I was treating the singletrack as rest sections and still keeping up with other riders, it's the hills where I'm getting dropped.

Thanks for the sparkpeople link, molgrips. There's some interesting stuff there on HIIT, but it's all still a bit structured.
I was looking more for general principles, something like roadie_in_denial's idea of 2:1 work to rest ratio at 70% of your MHR.

Maybe I'm asking too much and it's not possible to build something like this in a to mixed road and off road, up and down commute.
Maybe I'm going to have to find myself a training route with the right mix of climbs and descents.

Hi Graham

Spotted this the other day haven't got around to fully reading it but the blogger has loads of links and insight into his training.

http://mtb-training-s.blogspot.com/

Sorry to go off topic, was looking to email you too as I'm thinking of getting a rohloff and noticed you posted quite a bit about them, plus Im in Birimgham so you could be a great port of call for setting it up?

Cheers
em

So ***, are the best marathon runners the ones who do most weekly miles?

The best endurance athletes do shed loads of interval training.

Interval training gives a huge boost to aerobic capacity and power, quite handy in endurance events don't you think?

MTQG - ignore heart rates, your HR has only woken up to what's happening well into an interval. For the events you're doing try these within your commute.

5 x 5 min at an effort you would rate as 'hard'. 1 min recovery between

3 sets of 5 x 30 sec MAX/30 sec recovery. 3 min light effort between sets - ideal to do one week on the flat, one week using a 30 sec climb

Do each once a week - you'll see a big improvement in 3-4 weeks

iDave in completely missing the point yet again shocker...

With irregular training in a fair to middling level of rider simply going out and riding the bike as and when is far better than trying to do intervals.

SbZ in wrong again non-shock. You told him to just ride his bike? That's bollox. At least you're consistently wrong though. If you were ever right you might confuse us.

Whatever you say batman.

Training Schedule. There many different ways to it. I have a great coach and a 10 day schedule. So, here are the things you need to in this period...try and do it, try and get them done with priorities on what you should focus on.

Then report back and move foreard. Its a very enjoyable and interesting process that is all about YOU. Gives a little bit of accountability too which I find helps.

I'll let all the other experts inform you on what to do 😉

I'm a great believer that interval training builds endurance and speed. Practically all my training is interval based of my own making, no real structure at all. I've never done any 'base' training in my life, most of my rides are around 25miles in a couple of hours or more but when I want to go for 40 or 50miles I never struggle with lack of strength or stamina.

Kev

I'm with you Keva, sometimes I find things too routine or scientific so I just push hard to next landmark, cruise to next one or do the same between lamposts or whatever. iDave has the answers as always, his tips and advice have helped me get quicker and feel better.

Some really good guidance on here if you want to work to a plan.

http://www.fullysussed.co.uk/index.php?p=2_8

Maybe interval training isn't what I want then. Like Alejandro says, it's regarded as the default advanced training method, so I thought maybe there would be some variation of it that would suit me.

Fwiw, I had an iDave plan a few years back, included a fair few brutal interval sessions and was horribly and surprisingly rapidly effective. If you're remotely serious about what you're doing, something like that is the way forward imo. In a funny way, a you-focussed schedule constructed by someone who knows a lot better than you what you should be doing is strangely liberating.

And moving forwards, you get a much better idea of how your body responds to training and can mix the stuff in with your other riding. It's very time efficient too, though quite funny getting off the bike after what feels like a short session to find your legs don't quite support your bodyweight any more.

The other thing I've found interesting, is using the ithlete app on my phone. You quickly realise that what hits your HRV isn't generally distance or duration, but intensity and that's what increases your performance.

Or look at it another way, what's going to make you faster, spending several hundred quid on new cranks or a flash seatpost or investing the same amount of money in a proper training plan. And if you don't want to improve your performance, why are you even asking?

Thanks iDave, despite what SBZ says, that's the closest answer to what I'm looking for.
I like riding my bike and I like racing, but it's not my whole life, that's why I was looking for some sort of training ideas I could incorporate in to my commute.

Even if I loosely adopt iDave's ideas, I would still have trouble sticking to it.
I can start with a 10 minute warm up along the canal straight from work and probably follow that with a 5 minute climb or sprint, but then I'm on to gates, styles, road junctions and all sorts of other interruptions.
I think the only realistic way to do anything resembling proper intervals is to find myself a training route in the Wyre Forest and ride it at least once a week.

Thanks for the other links. Following those I found this which looks interesting as well. http://www.ultracycling.com/training/guide_12_24_races.html

Emaroid, if you watch [url= http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12602037&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=3040&sid=93663a34973cbc3f19fed9bd41200f8f ]this thread[/url] on BikeRadar, you're welcome to join us on a Wyre ride. I'll be at Erlestoke 12 in a couple of weeks if that's any good to you.

Right seeing as I'm taking a wee bit of a slagging here I'm going to bite. 700km/ month is absolutely bugger all and in no way prepares you to do anything like a 24hr race, christ I do double that just going about my business and it feels like I am never on the bike. It equates to 14ish miles per day every day which should take you under an hour. If you are doing any decent length rides at the weekend then you will be getting next to no benefit at all from your "training". So where are you doing anything that relates in any way to endurance training? If you are serious about doing halfway decent in an endurance race then you need to start doing endurance rides 6hrs plus - (iDave - remember rule 1 of training? Make it specific).

What is the point in training yourself to be able to handle being near the redline when going to the redline is the last thing you want to do in an endurance race?

What is the point in training yourself to be able to handle being near the redline when going to the redline is the last thing you want to do in an endurance race?

SbZ, you [i]really[/i] don't understand the adaptations made after interval training do you?

I've coached three riders who have won stages of the Tour. That's the Tour de France. Two of them have held the yellow jersey. None of them did training rides longer than 4 hours, and that duration was rare.

'Specific' training just means training which prepares you for the specific demands of an event. It doesn't mean what you think it means. Otherwise the best training for a 24 would be to ride 24's. Is the best core training for cycling to cycle? Or is it to train the elements which positively affect core integrity? Maybe more than cycling alone would do? Go figure.

Aye, so you did.

You bang on and on and on about how elite athletes train. Do you not realise that the last thing a normal punter off the street should be doing is following the same training methods as an elite athlete. It's dangerous and only someone who didnt have a clue about training normal people would recommend it.

What is the point in training yourself to be able to handle being near the redline when going to the redline is the last thing you want to do in an endurance race?

You may think so but it does work. I'm working with a professional coach to prepare for La Marmotte and can tell you that high intensity intervals combined with a decent amount of Z1-Z3 (<80% max HR) riding, probably around 6-8 hours a week (not all in one day), is remarkably effective at increasing endurance, cruising speed and threshold power.

I'd also disagree about needing to regularly do 6 hr rides. That will just leave him too tired to do any quality training for the rest of the week.

To the OP. Doing well in your chosen event is a serious proposition. You have to ask yourself how serious you are about preparation for it. From your posts above I'd suggest not very. I think you have to give higher priority to your training or you're just preparing to fail.

You want to know how to do well in the marmotte - learn to descend well and learn how to plod along up hills. No need for professional coaching there.

SbZ you are utterly clueless. I have never suggested that normal people do the same training as elite athletes. But they can use similar methods and to be honest you have illustrated numerous times that you just don't understand training. Credit to you, you have given great advice on posture/injuries etc but in terms of training knowledge you're between A-level sports studies and Men's Health subscriber. And I should really stop biting.

You want to know how to do well in the marmotte - learn to descend well and learn how to plod along up hills. No need for professional coaching there

Speaking from experience are you?

iDave - I think exactly the same about your advice. You dont appear to understand training normal people and you also dont appear to understand much about diet for weight loss in normal people either.

You set yourself up as a nutritional expert and a training expert. Which one is it? I am not thinking that one person could get to training elite level athletes in both of those areas in a relatively short time and have trained three tour stage winners... Call me cynical but I dont believe a word of it.

uponthedowns - yes I have done the marmotte and many more difficult longer rides.

uponthedowns - yes I have done the marmotte and many more difficult longer rides

Well done but I want to do a bit better than just plodding.

What time are you aiming for?

Relatively short time?? What gave you that idea? I've been coaching since 1990, after I lectured in coaching science and exercise physiology. I haven't 'set myself up' as anything.

I train normal people and professional athletes - always have done. No complaints from either.

And to be honest, you dish out advice like you're some authority but what's to back you up? You were a ten-a-penny personal trainer, and jacked it in? That good eh? Have you qualified yet as a physio? So, tell us about your coaching experience? Just to shut me up once and for all?

I think endurance training is probably not needed. I think the main benefit of it is probably just getting used to sitting in the saddle for ages.

Most of my riding is between 30 - 40miles (1.5 to 2hrs) at a fairly high intensity, but I dont have a problem riding 100miles on my bike when the time comes.

You'r jumping to a lot of conclusions and basing it all on a lot of assumptions there iDave.

What do I base my advice on - successfully training several normal people to success in endurance races and personal experience. I am qualified as a personal trainer, but that's not a difficult thing to do, never jacked it in just did the courses because I wanted to. I am halfway through my physio degree, but any physio advice comes from my wife who is apparently at an advanced specialist level and has a dietetics degree.

She disagrees with your methods too.

Are you saying that your wife doesn't understand the role of the insulin response to different food types in body composition? Really? Odd.

Anyway, have you noticed that no one else on the thread seems to think you're right about the training Graham should do? Do you think they're all wrong? Are all the people who have lost weight wrong too? Have they imagined it?

Those are rhetorical questions btw.

iv always thought about how to train and having a misses and 2yo you just cant plan as much as you would like so iv found a commute route that is 70% uphill there and home 15miles each way i just figure the more i do it the quicker and easyer it will get

also i do have trouble geting a good filling of my lungs after a steep climb but that may well be due to my very poor diet which i no i need to sort out to be a better rider.

Only a complete and utter fool with a weak personality would be swayed by a majority opinion.

Yet you're totally buying into the mainstream majority held positions on training and nutrition. Nothing you say is either innovative or counter intuitive... same old bollox from some old articles you read once...

Why would I want to deviate from tried and tested old school training though? It works and has been proven to work. Why reinvent the wheel?

And surely new school training methods and diets are in the majority now are they not?

Or are you pushing methods that the minority believe in?

I think you're confused.

Why would I want to deviate from tried and tested old school training though?

Because some alternatives are more effective maybe? Because our understanding of the subject increases? Just a guess.

I use old school, new school, a mixture - whatever my knowledge and experience suggests is most effective in a given situation. Some methods I would have used 10 years ago 'worked' but I would use more effective methods now.

I dont know if you've noticed, but with the increasing use of high intensity interval training and decrease in base work that people are doing there is an increase in time spent out injured. Tells me that people are missing out the most important part of their training and stressing their tissues beyond braking point. As I have said before there are no shortcuts to fitness - that will never change.

*thinks apologies to OP and everyone else for dreary and futile duel with SbZ*

I've pulled up a chair now................

If you'd just got out and ridden your bike,you'd have pulled it up much quicker lucien.

Ok a comment to Graham

my knowledge of training is entirely based on reading a book called "training lactate pulse" it may now be very out of date. I have never been truelly fit in the forum sense of the word. But here is what I learnt from the book

To do a long event fast what you are mainly trying to achieve is a large anarobic threshold. This is defined as in many ways including the pace you can just endure for 1 hour. The aim is to get this threshold as high as possible because your pace for 3 hours or 24 hours is roughly a fixed % of this pace.

You develop your threshold through lots of training just below this pace (probably event pace for you). But once a week you need to train beyond tyhis threshold. This could be intervals or it could say a 10 mile time trial with a local road club

the other need is for sessions over 90 minutes to train your body to metabolise fat

If this wrong or out of date will some one please tell me, but calmly

yeah the book was out of date when it was published

it's just mostly old and bad science

doesn't mean you won't improve if you follow what it says though

Amidst all the debate one major aspect of doing a 24h race seems to have been missed - the bit between the ears! Gotta be strong mentally to ride a bike for that long. I'm not speaking from experience either - done a few 10's and they were hard enough 😀

idave

has the concept of aerobic threshold gone, or just how to improove it?

both

If you don't mind SBZ I'll continue to take advice from a recent British Cycling Team coach rather than yourself. Or maybe you could teach British Cycling a thing or two.

A recent British Cycling Team coach indeed. You sure that statement is entirely accurate?

Not read any of this thread but I picked up a road cycling mag the other day and read that intervals do help your endurance alot more than they thought it did.

You sure that statement is entirely accurate?

Yup.

All Graham needs to do is do the intervals and see if it helps 🙂

This is great.

Molgrips, I've already decided I'm going to do intervals.
As so often happens, it's not until I get a few answers that I realise I wasn't really asking the right questions.
I think what I wanted to know was whether I could incorporate intervals in to my commute.
I can do 5 minutes of hard climbing, but what if the hill then goes on for another 3 minutes ? Do I turn it in to an 8 minute interval, do I slow right down to rest pace while still climbing, or do I turn round and coast half way back down ?
What if the hill is followed by 20 minutes of downhill with gate climbs ? How do I incorporate 5 minutes of maximum effort in to that ?
I think the answer is that I can include the odd high intensity interval in to my commute, but it will not be anything like proper HIIT. I will need to go out on specific training rides to do that.

To reply to a couple of other points and ignore SBZ...

Doing well in your chosen event is a serious proposition. You have to ask yourself how serious you are about preparation for it. From your posts above I'd suggest not very. I think you have to give higher priority to your training or you're just preparing to fail

Depends what you mean by doing well and serious.
If I was young and in with a realistic chance of a sponsorship deal or a podium place, then I would give a much higher priority to my training.
I'm not though, I'm a 48 year old who generally finishes in the top third, or top quarter on a good day. Up until now, I've given a very low priority to training, yet I don't see myself as failing.

Amidst all the debate one major aspect of doing a 24h race seems to have been missed - the bit between the ears! Gotta be strong mentally to ride a bike for that long.

MTG.

It is difficult to give advice on how to work intervals into your commute other than follow the logic of fast, slow, fast slow.

I did when I was commuting a few years ago. A few hills where I gave it laldy, 1 longer hill where I went hard for 1st third, slow for mid third and hard at the top plus a few sprints out of junctions. Just mix it up. Made a big difference to pace AND endurance and I was pretty fit at the time. It also made the commute a lot more fun. More Headroom is good phrase for what I got.

I struggle with 'traditiopnal' intervals like ride the same hill ten times. Just bores me and I do not put in the right effort

You need to work hard to get the real benefits. First few times I puked or dry wretched (lovely!). You will notice a difference quickly if you do put the effort in.

Good luck

MTG - having a hilly commute is indeed a pain. You could just use your brakes to iron them out. I've done it before a lot but not so much for intervals, and I did it tonight to time my intervals with junctions. Surprising how little brake you need to slow you right down on the flat.

I didn't actually puke tonight but I came fairly close on my last one 🙂