inspired by shed threads, do you think its possible for…..

good advice. ive got a lad at work with all decent tools and good knowledge, so ill be rewarding him afterwards for all his help. the lad who quoted me for building it is another mate who still hasnt finished our bathroom yet 8 weeks into a ‘1 week build’ so this is what spurred me on to thinking i may as well have a bash meself 😀

ill certainly be posting pics up as and when i do anything (a sort of mcmoonter-lite if you will). the starter pics are in the OP and the only thing ive done so far is cut all next doors bushes out of my garden, and string all the sizes out, and even then i keep changing my mind 😀 off camping for two days today, so im hoping to start digging some holes saturday.

Oh, and you’ll need Festool stuff. You will.

this is where im a little confused, so bear with me please….. im assuming once all the posts are in the ground, ill be nailing 4X2 ring beams to the outside of those posts, so in effect widening everything by 4″.

It wouldn’t, all you would be doing is adding an unburied post between those buried either side. Instead of digging a hole you’d simply be nailing it to your floor and roof rails. These would occupy the same space as the 4x4s except they’d just be 4x2s to give you something to nail the ship lap to.

Sorry, I’m not explaining myself very well 🙂
I meant if the posts are say 7m apart, once I’ve nailed 4X2 to the outside of them all round, my width is now 7m plus 4″ as I’ve just added the width of the 4X2 to it yes?

And the unburied posts between roof and floor, how do I fix to the roof and floor rings as I can’t nail from underneath, am I driving nails in at say a 45 degree angle?

Thanks 🙂

“once I’ve nailed”

Nailed? 😯

Don’t nail boards to a frame. Nails are ok when you want to join timbers that will be subject to twisting/moving, but outer cladding should be screwed on. The same as if you’re doing a deck. I always try to use fasteners as little as possible, and do things the ‘old fashioned way’, with proper mortice and tenon joints etc, but this is a much slower process. But if it’s a ‘project’, there’s no harm in trying a bit of simple joinery.

I’ve been commissioned to build an allotment shed in the autumn, so I’ll be watching this thread with interest.

with proper mortice and tenon joints etc

on a shed?

“on a shed?”

Why not? Plenty of examples of very old buildings with timbers frames, that have been constructed using proper joinery techniques rather than nails. I accept many might think such endeavour a bit overkill on a shed, but if you’re going to do a job, why not do it as well as possible?

My woodwork bench is all M+T’ed. It’s as solid as anything. The shed I build in the autumn will be constructed using traditional joinery techniques as much as possible. I’m really looking forward to the challenge; I know it will be more complex and take longer than doing it simply, with screws and nails etc, but so what? I’ll gain far more from the experience.

That’s fine for you clohopper, but looking at the questions the OP is asking, I think you’ve leapt too far.

99% of shed builds (even quality self-builds) have nailed-on cladding, so your exclamation is confusing to the OP and misplaced.

yeah, thanks for the advice mate, and no its not confusing, i take it all on board before deciding which way to go.

but no, i wont be using M&T joints or anything like that, ill be using the usual nails or screws. if mcmoonter says nails are good enough thats probably what ill do. but im still a little confused still as to how id be fastening in these ‘middle posts’ to roof and floor ring beams…..

If you want to keep the posts and ring beams in the same plane then you can either use halving joints or use butt joints diagonally screwed/nailed together. Over a long run these joints may need to be supported when hammering the nails in to fix the cladding, a nail gun or screws would be an advantage in that respect
An alternative approach might be to make panels separately that you can slot between the posts, similar to many flat pack sheds

“That’s fine for you clohopper, but looking at the questions the OP is asking, I think you’ve leapt too far.

99% of shed builds (even quality self-builds) have nailed-on cladding, so your exclamation is confusing to the OP and misplaced.”

I wasn’t suggesting that they build a shed the way I would. Actually, without skills and experience, I’d probably advise them to pay someone else to do it, or at least get someone with suitable skills and experience to help them. But in the spirit of ‘nothing ventured, nothing gained’, I’d be looking into making it an educational project, rather than just following instructions for a flat-pack shed (which are generally pretty poor quality anyway).

“If you want to keep the posts and ring beams in the same plane then you can either use halving joints or use butt joints diagonally screwed/nailed together. “

A halving joint is actually a really easy, simple joint to start out with. You only need a couple of basic tools, it won’t take long, and it’s an effective joint. Butt joints are only ever effective when absolutely nothing will move; a lightweight timber frame will invariably move a bit, and using butt joints will not help at all in this regard. A bit of scrap wood, a laptop and basic tools (ruler, try square, pencil, clamps, saw, chisel, mallet), and you can learn something really useful!

Anyone can put up a shed. Getting it to stay up, is slightly more challenging. But have fun! 🙂

got £700s worth of wood being delivered friday for my framework and decking *gulp
ill get the shiplap later when i know exactly how much i want, and also the roof materials. which leads me to ask for some advice on which type of roof to go for now……

i thought the pent roof would be easiest (it will be) and cheapest (it will be) but wanted a bit of advice on working sizes out and pricing stuff up.

roof will need to cover 7m X 3.2m. lets say its all built bar the roof. id have everything done and the top would be around 7 roof joists across the framework. i say 7 as i believe the best way of covering a pent roof would be 9 X OSB (£180) in 3 x 2.4 lengths across, and 3 x 1.2 down. then theyd need supporting halfway along each length. then felt around £60 for 30m sq.

so the cost of pent roof would be roughly £240 which is far more than i thought tbh. question 1……. is this the cheapest way of doing a pent roof and do my costings seem about right?

now, if i go for better looking, pitched roof with felt shingles say, ive worked out my costs to be……
£20 per triangle braced section of 4×2, of which id need 7 (each triangle support to be nailed onto one of the 7 joists) = £140
12 x OSB as thered be extra roof space now as its pitched (im guessing around 35-40sqm) = £240!!
felt shingles seem to be around £25 per 2msq, so around £450!
bit of extra shiplap for the gables..who cares, the budgets gone!!

so my costs for a simple pitched roof would appear to be around £850+!!

that all seem like reasonable working out?

i started playing around with ideas, such as only using shingles on half the roof (the back half cant be seen) which saves £225 but id still be around £625.

so, like i say, for all those in the know, does this all sound reasonable pricing for something of this size or am i missing any tricks which can make it all cheaper?

cheers, it all seems a bit complicated ^^^ so thanks if youve stayed with me 🙂

That’s a big heavy roof for 7 joists IMO.

That’s a big heavy roof for 7 joists IMO.

has my cost just gone up 🙁

im thinking each OSB will be supported at each end and in the middle, that not enough you reckon?

Glad you picked up on not concreting the legs. Holds moisture in and makes them a pain to replace.

Depending on your final design, you could save digging some holes at the garage end by bolting a wall plate (chunky bit of timber like 6″x2″horizontally) to the garage and running joist hangers off them as I imagine the garage will have some sort of footing that will make it hard to bury posts up snug.

Considered corrugated roof? Ignore if it doesn’t suit your aesthetic.

Glad you picked up on not concreting the legs. Holds moisture in and makes them a pain to replace.

yep ive taken that on board, although im considering postcrete for the 2 end legs near the field. we get some real hoolies at times up over the cliff, and people have lost sheds before. id prefer not to use it but im thinking the balance tips it in favour of concrete instead of earth where the wind will always try and pick it up.

Depending on your final design, you could save digging some holes at the garage end by bolting a wall plate (chunky bit of timber like 6″x2″horizontally) to the garage and running joist hangers off them as I imagine the garage will have some sort of footing that will make it hard to bury posts up snug.

ive decided to leave a gap between garage and shed for access and aesthetics (itd have a different shaped roof built onto a building with a pitched roof. plus ive already dug the holes 🙂

Considered corrugated roof? Ignore if it doesn’t suit your aesthetic.

ill look into that. what material?
thanks.

“builder has quoted me £1800”

The tools you will need to buy to DIY, will cost you at least half of that. Let alone the materials. Unless you buy really crappy cheap tools which might just about last for the one job. But then, good quality tools will be an investment, if you plan to take on other jobs in the future.

I agree with this statement above. Although to some extent it depends on your mind frame.

1. If your doing it your self buy some decent tools they make a real difference to how quickly and easily you can do the job.

2. Again If doing it your self buy decent materials, dont be trying to save on this and that your’ll only be disappointed with the results.

The main reason not to get some one to do it is if your fussy.
If you are fussy and want some one to do it you need to plan every last detail ahead and tell them.

I find when I do stuff I tend to make it up as I go along (maybe not a good plan) but I do think deeply about stuff once I get going so Im normally pleased with the results.

I’ve found getting others in to the do jobs, I havent given enough info to them to begin with and stuff is never where I expect it.

Assuming that you’re in the UK I’d do some snow calcs. I think that 6″ of wet snow could add a surprising load to a pent roof of that size

we get some real hoolies at times

I’d be concerned about wind strength too

i started playing around with ideas, such as only using shingles on half the roof (the back half cant be seen) which saves £225 but id still be around £625.

I like the box profile steel roof sheets (http://www.steelroofsheets.co.uk have a nice online claclualtor). 600 quid did a 6x5m barn roof (ish, from memory).

I re-covered my knackered shed roof with corrugated bitumen sheets from B&Q which are light and not too expensive.

you probably mean onduline?

if so, buy it from wickes. its the same price as the B&Q version but significantly thicker.

Now you mention it, I think it was Wickes.

you mean this stuff??

just done some quick fag packet calcs, which show about £336 for a moderately pitched roof. are we saying then that this stuff can be used straight onto joists and would be substantial enough? or would i still need the OSBs underneath?

thanks

you can put it straight onto joists but it can sag, i’ve got mine on top of OSB.

hmmmm…….decisions…. still, i dont have to decide yet, ill be a while getting up to that level 🙂

I agree with this statement above. Although to some extent it depends on your mind frame.

1. If your doing it your self buy some decent tools they make a real difference to how quickly and easily you can do the job.

mates helping me, hes clued up and has all the good gear.

2. Again If doing it your self buy decent materials, dont be trying to save on this and that your’ll only be disappointed with the results.

im buying decent 4X2 wood and 4X4 fence posts, everything tanalised, and ill be buying decent shiplap i think. not sure what the alternatives are to shiplap but it seems to nbe cheap enough and looks ok, so a good compromise.
cant justify a real nice roof tho, just cant afford it, so itll be the best compromise that i can afford.

I’d be tempted to try and find some offcut/reject kingspan type insulation to put under the corrugated if you use that. Nb, I’ve overhung the walls quite a lot more than the spec said, mainly to avoid cutting the sheets and they haven’t sagged at all.

and ill be buying decent shiplap i think

You may be aware, but rain soaks through shiplap (or any other wood). You need to paint or double skin it with a membrane in between if you want to avoid a damp interior.

having just got a load of shiplap for my own shed build (albeit smaller) – make sure you get a discount! I paid just over 50% of list price, just by asking. I got around 100m of 150mm x 25mm (finished 140×20) so nice and solid, treated, for about £300. I expect your bill will be a bunch higher. They did try to sell me on concrete ‘hardiplank’ cladding, which I guess lasts much longer – I decided against it due to the costs.

For the OSB, you can probably get thinner/worse rated OSB and it’d be fine – wickes do 11mm OSB2 for a tenner a sheet if you buy a few – that’s half the price you’re listing. I’m covering mine with rubber (firestone) sheet from ebay – it works out more costly than shingles but should (I hope) be more waterproof and last longer

I used 9mm OSB3 on the roof.

I built a shed recently and learnt a few things.

It will take a lot longer than you think, you will make mistakes, but you’ll learn a lot. You’ll also develop rough manly hands for a while.

If you ask for trade prices at timber merchants you’ll usually get them.

Before you buy all the tools, ask your friends, as chances are some of them have done somthing similar, and now have a bunch of tools sitting somewhere getting dusty that you could use. The more types of saw you can borrow the better, and having more than one drill can save a lot of time, plus you can never have too many clamps.

“you can never have too many clamps.”

Still not enough:

I’d be tempted to try and find some offcut/reject kingspan type insulation

There’s a website which sells rejects…I’ll see if I can find it.

Cladding doesn’t have to be treated timber, if you use the right stuff it will naturally silver beautifully.

See for example: http://www.englishwoodlandstimber.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2016/08/PRODUCT-INFO.CLD_.FS_.Douglas-Fir-fresh-sawn-douglas-fir-cladding.pdf

I’d be tempted to try and find some offcut/reject kingspan type insulation to put under the corrugated if you use that

There’s a website which sells rejects…I’ll see if I can find it.

why insulation? to make it quieter when it rains or something? most of roof will be over an open gazebo and the shed is just well…. a shed 🙂

You may be aware, but rain soaks through shiplap (or any other wood). You need to paint or double skin it with a membrane in between if you want to avoid a damp interior.

i wasnt aware no, but i dont think that would bother me particularly, lots of sheds are made from shiplap so i spose if they get damp they get damp. im getting tanalised wood and will also treat it from time to time. thanks.

having just got a load of shiplap for my own shed build (albeit smaller) – make sure you get a discount!

i got just over £100 knocked off by pricematching and will be trying this again with the shiplap and roof 🙂

I used 9mm OSB3 on the roof.

For the OSB, you can probably get thinner/worse rated OSB and it’d be fine – wickes do 11mm OSB2 for a tenner a sheet if you buy a few – that’s half the price you’re listing.

good point. ill be getting the thicker stuff for shed floor but yep i spose i can go thinner for the roof.

douglas fir cladding ^^^

cant see me being able to afford that plus there doesnt seem to be anyone local selling it.

thanks all, i appreciate it.

well, disappointed today, travis perkins lorry apparently broke down on way to deliver my wood and it didnt get here til after dinner. it means my mate who was going to come over and help hasnt had time to, so im left twiddling my thumbs. decided to spend the time double checking sizes and maybe gamble on getting the first post in. then at least if its in the wrong place everything else can work to that 🙂

laid the decking and a post out to check sizes and yes, i need to er….’move some holes’ a little bit 😀

ive taken a pic of my new fag packet sizes and wanted to run it by you to double check im not being daft.
my official drawing so far is this……

ive numbered the posts so if you need to ask a question its easy to identify which area we’re talking about. basically ive got posts 1-8 in a 7m X 3.2m oblong for roof purposes, thats why 8s out on its own.
pic is the floor area. the solid lines are the 4X2. the x’s are where i plan to put supporting struts of 2X2. the x’s to left of post 9 are for the door frame. theres an extra x nailed onto post 3 for the shiplap to tack onto.

all the 4X2 will have corresponding 4X2 at roof height.

the 4×2 on the inside of posts 1,2 and 3 is because the shaded parts are the shiplap. and as i want the shiplap to be the ‘inside cladding’ it has to go this side. same with the wall from post 3 towards 7, stopping at shed front, leaving a gap to see through.

do you agree with my sizing on the 5,6,7 posts? the decking is 4.8 per board, so once the 4×2 is nailed onto the posts itll add 4″ (0.100m) so i need the posts to be 4.7? and then that ickle drawing bottom left is the er..’plan design(?)’ which shows what i mean and includes a decking board over the 4×2 to finish off the edges of the decking.

there are reasons why im making it a little more complicated than just one big oblong, mainly to do with preserving as much of the view we have as possible, and the internal shiplap creates problems i know. but as you cant see the back of any of this im not too bothered about what that looks like, not the inside of the shed, it just needs to look nice from the inside of the gazebo.

thanks if you can actually understand what im doing here and have any comments to make 🙂

EDIT: looking at the pic now in the thread, it does look a bit small to see the detail so apologies for that.

EDIT EDIT: thinking about it more, im not sure that internal cladding can work, so i may have to just accept its external cladding and all posts will be on show inside the gazebo. ill think on that some more later but main thing for now is the floor, so as long as i get my posts 4.7 from end to end i should be ok with that shouldnt i?

why insulation? to make it quieter when it rains or something? most of roof will be over an open gazebo and the shed is just well…. a shed

Think I’d misunderstood the size and function of your shed. I use mine as a bike workshop so want it as warm as possible in the winter.

“why insulation? to make it quieter when it rains or something? most of roof will be over an open gazebo and the shed is just well…. a shed “

Warm air rises and escapes through uninsulated materials. Are you going to be spending any time in your shed? Trust me; in winter, you will be thankful for all-round insulation. Insulate everything; ceiling, walls, the lot. And think about the ground; what material will it be? Concrete? Wooden boards? If you’ll be standing around a lot, then consider some anti-fatigue matting. Makes a huge difference to comfort, and is relatively cheap. Insulation and moisture protection will also help keep your tools corrosion free.

nope, shed will be for lawnmower, barbies, garden sh1te etc, just to clear a bit of space from the garage. the main aim of this project is to tidy up a real scruffy area of garden and make it into something we’d like to use for socialising ie a gazebo. we’d looked at buying a pop up gazebo anyway so altho this is more expensive it should be a lot nicer. the shed is just an incidental tag on the end as we have room for one so may as well build it into the structure.

btw, of all the wood i got today, some of the 4x2s are twisted. is this normal, will they just push back into line when fixed onto the posts? or should i be ringing for swapsies?

I had a lot of that last year – some were okay when trying to fix but others split. Nowadays I visit the yard and cherry pick the lengths I want and weigh down any I’m not going to use immediately.

It’s shit – they’re not exactly cheap but are good for nothing once too warped. I also had a post that eventually twisted a full 90? when it finally dried. Pissed me off so much I ripped it up and replaced – a Hulk moment.

If you can swap them, do so.

If you can swap them, do so.

yup, will get onto the yard then, thanks.

this build isnt doing me any favours, its all im thinking about now, and im up early again today cos im just laid there thinking about things.

todays ‘mind problem’ which may change the way i build the framework is….
ive been pondering on how im going to clad it. i was thinking i nail onto the 4×4 posts at the end, then halfway between them will be these ‘intermediate’ studs to tack on to as well. and these studs will be fixed between the floor and roof 4x2s using angle brackets. somethings been bothering me tho as i couldnt get it in my head how itd work out, and ive just twigged why. the studs will have to be nailed to the inside of the 4×2 wont they, so the face of them is in the same plane as the posts?
and the cladding wont actually be nailed to the floor and roof 4x2s but run between them?