I'm a Christian, unless you're gay

As clubber says TJ, some religious people no doubt do consider themselves better than others, but that is human pride (ironically enough a sin, in the bible at least, dunno about the Koran and others) rather than their doctrine telling them they are better.

Push to convert – since they believe, rightly or wrongly, that their beliefs are the way to happiness, salvation, call it what you will, I suspect the motive is often to share that with others. Again, as alluded to elsewhere, entirely different motivation to some of the religious groups that are greedy/power hungry and so on. But that’s not the motivation for many religious people who share their beliefs – it’s done altruistically. Just like atheists who don’t believe in any deity wish to share their thoughts and beliefs with others, because they believe that is in people’s best interests.

There’s no logic in saying Williams shouldn’t be publicly talking about his belief in God, then on the other hand saying he should be publicly challenged by those who think the opposite.

A religious person should not speak out for it. A non-religious person should speak out against it. There’s no tolerance there mate, but that seems to be the gist of your position.

And in the New Testament there’s several books (John and Romans springs to mind) that bang on about how unbelievers are going to hell, regardless of how they’ve lived their lives.

I dare say that’s true – and I’ll take your word for it. But do they say that is going to happen because they are superior to unbelievers, or do they think that is going to happen because they have faith and unbelievers do not, and in sharing their faith they hope that unbelievers will also go to heaven? My understanding is that it is the latter not the former. I mean, if they thought that they were superior to unbelievers, wouldn’t they want to keep them out of heaven, and therefore keep quiet about how to be saved?

Imagine CFH telling all the lefties the secret knock to get into Claridge’s unless he wanted to have dinner with them all!

Kenny – The drive to share their beliefs may be altruistic but its driven by he conviction that they are right and therefore superior.

It is doctrine telling them they are better. that the whole drive to convert that it is a better state of being to be a believer thus its the right thing to do to convert unbelievers

On Williams – if he and his ilk shut up then so will I. He he keeps it between consenting adults in private then there is nothing to rail agaisnt. His is the action mine is the reaction.

AS I have said – I have spent my own time and effort making sure believers get the chance to worship. I will fight for the freedom of religious worship. I will fight against the religious attempting to restrict the freedoms of others

EDIT: removing this as bits of this thread are quite interesting and if I put what I really think, the mods will step in.

The drive to share their beliefs may be altruistic but its driven by he conviction that they are right and therefore superior.

Ironing?

10 pages?

Bloody ‘ell… Homosexuals are marginally more interesting than Christians, but neither group can really be worth all that fuss, surely?

AdamW – Member

Just been for a coffee. At the machine waiting and someone has printed out god-squad stuff for people to read and hung it near the machine.

So much for people keeping their religion to themselves.

They have every right to be open about their religion, why should they ‘keep it to themselves’ ? Your comment is as daft as those how claim that gays and lesbians should keep their homosexuality to themselves.

Obviously I don’t like ‘in-your-face’ religious people anymore than I like in-your-face gays. I don’t want someone who I’m having a conversation with at work about a job that needs doing, to suddenly start banging on about me going to hell unless I repent. Likewise I wouldn’t appreciate some gay geezer banging on about sexual acts which I personally find disgusting.

But everyone has the right to be open about who and what they are (unless it’s illegal) without any need to keep it to themselves.

Presumably the “god-squad” as you contemptuously call them, think their religion is “the best” and want to share it with others so that they too can have the perceived benefits of this apparently wonderful thing. I see this as an act of generosity, rather than some sort of reason to feel insulted.

In the same vein I have always failed to understand the animosity and hostility shown towards Jehovah’s Witnesses, and how apparently some people slam the door in their faces. It’s rare for Jehovah’s Witnesses to knock on my door but when they do I am always touched that they should have made the effort to try to save my soul. They could instead just sit at home watching the telly, condemning my soul to rot in hell.

So as a consequence I am always very polite to the nice Jehovah’s Witness ladies, telling them “thanks, but no thank you” and “yes I will read it” as they invariably press a copy of Watchtower into my hand, which btw I do always make an effort to read.

Some people really need to be a little more tolerant of other people lifestyles choices and beliefs, even when they think these are “wrong”. There will always be those who think yours are wrong – everyone is, in some way, in a minority. Tolerance and acceptance is the way forward. Which takes us right back to the OP.

Kenny – The drive to share their beliefs may be altruistic but its driven by he conviction that they are right and therefore superior.

I don’t think your jump from them believing they are correct to them believing that they are better is a logical one.

As an analogy, I think that helmets should always be worn when cycling. You think they should not always be worn. You, I assume, believe you are correct. Do you also assume that because you are correct that you are a superior person to me? If you do, I think that says more about your character than anything else.

Not everyone believes that being right makes them superior.

It is doctrine telling them they are better.

Where?

that the whole drive to convert that it is a better state of being to be a believer thus its the right thing to do to convert unbelievers

Better state of being – so happier, more fulfilled, going to heaven, whatever. But not that they are fundamentally better people.

Suppose you thought that you, with your lifestyle, were more content than me, with mine. Would you also think that you were therefore a superior person than me?

I just don’t follow your logic.

In the same vein I have always failed to understand the animosity and hostility shown towards Jehovah’s Witnesses, and how apparently some people slam the door in their faces. It’s rare for Jehovah’s Witnesses to knock on my door but when they do I am always touched that they should have made the effort to try to save my soul. They could instead just sit at home watching the telly, condemning my soul to rot in hell.

Whereas I see them as people who have been brainwashed and need to wake up from their slumber. I find it offensive that people who I consider to be mentally unbalanced should knock at my door to tell me that they’re right, and I’m wrong. I don’t shout at them or abuse them in any way but I do ask them to leave immediately, and absolutely refuse to take any of their literature.

Bear in mind that these are people who do believe that they’re better than you – as they see it, secular society is effectively operated by Satan (no, I’m not making this up), and they (and only they) are the ones who are the true worshippers, with all other religious people being the worshippers of false prophets. They try to avoid contact with we non-JWs for fear of contamination. Oh yes, and the world was going to end in 1914. When it didn’t, that date was revised to 1975. When that also failed to be the end of the world, they just conveniently stopped talking about it.

Still think these people should be listened to? Fair enough, it’s your time after all. But I think most people are correct to consider the JWs as crackpots at best and dangerously misguided ones at that; if they come to my door I’ll not hold back in telling them, politely, that I think their views are utterly stupid.

Fair enough points, but why the need to tell them they are “utterly stupid”? Why wouldn’t a polite but firm “thankyou, but I’m not interested” work – any JW’s I’ve ever had knock on the door, when told this are very polite and leave you to your peace. If they really won’t shut up, then just say thankyou and close the door. Job done. No real need for the belittling of them even if you do think they are stupid.

speed12 – the very act of knocking on your door is rude in itself

I don’t shout at them or abuse them in any way but I do ask them to leave immediately

nickf – Member

Whereas I see them as people who have been brainwashed and need to wake up from their slumber. I find it offensive that people who I consider to be mentally unbalanced should knock at my door to tell me that they’re right, and I’m wrong. I don’t shout at them or abuse them in any way but I do ask them to leave immediately, and absolutely refuse to take any of their literature.

Bear in mind that these are people who do believe that they’re better than you – as they see it, secular society is effectively operated by Satan (no, I’m not making this up), and they (and only they) are the ones who are the true worshippers, with all other religious people being the worshippers of false prophets. They try to avoid contact with we non-JWs for fear of contamination. Oh yes, and the world was going to end in 1914. When it didn’t, that date was revised to 1975. When that also failed to be the end of the world, they just conveniently stopped talking about it.

Still think these people should be listened to? Fair enough, it’s your time after all. But I think most people are correct to consider the JWs as crackpots at best and dangerously misguided ones at that; if they come to my door I’ll not hold back in telling them, politely, that I think their views are utterly stupid.

Perhaps I am just secure and confident in my own beliefs not to feel threaten by the nice Jehovah’s Witness ladies ?

speed – simply this; they’ve invited themselves to my house, to tell me their views.

On the couple of occasions this has occurred, there’s been an attempt to explain why I need to hear the word of God. I could either say, “Not really for me, but thanks anyway” or I could say what I really think.

As they’ve come to my door, I’ll go with the latter, to demonstrate to them I’m not apathetic, I’m actually genuinely opposed to their views. I find it quite creepy that these people end up preying on some of the weaker folk i the world, and I despise them for their view of mankind. I certainly don’t see them as “nice Jehovah’s Witness ladies”; far from it.

nickf – Member

……..and I despise them

Ah, there’s not enough hate in the world.

Read the OP again. You have read it haven’t you ?

speed12 – the very act of knocking on your door is rude in itself

I don’t know about “rude” per sé. It is a nuisance though.

Last ones that called on me, woke me up on a Sunday morning. I raced down stairs with a dead-leg to get to the door, nearly coming a cropper halfway down. Opened the door to find a grinning besatchelled Sith Lord of Jesus and his young Padawan standing there.

“Could you tell me sir, what do you think is the root cause of the problems in the world today?”

I was quite proud that even in my half asleep, half hungover state, I managed to come up with “lack of sleep on a Sunday morning” before closing the door.

If someone came to my door and told me that there firmly held belief was the the moon was made of cheese and that they were awaiting the coming of the Great Cosmic Cracker. I would call them an idiot and ask them to leave.

Why shouldn’t I do the same for other peddlars of nonsense just because its was invented a few hundred years ago?

EDIT. I don’t hate them, I feel kind of sorry for them in a way. Would be nice if they could just keep it to themselves though

Its like any type of cold caller – they have lost all right to polite behaviour once they have disturbed you.

Its all about freedom to do as you wish so long as it does not impinge upon the freedom of others.

Read the OP again. You have read it haven’t you ?

Yep. Drivel, mostly.

I’ll support anyone’s right to a view, but that doesn’t mean for an instant that I support them. Or that I like them. Or that I’ll refrain from challenging them.

Oh, and just so we’re clear,

I don’t “hate” JWs, I simply reserve the same level of ambient contempt for them that I hold for all cold-calling door-to-door salesmen.

Yep. Drivel, mostly.

That’s a no, then.

The OP was about a theist’s world views being challenged. You’d like it.

Some people really need to be a little more tolerant of other people lifestyles choices and beliefs, even when they think these are “wrong”. There will always be those who think yours are wrong – everyone is, in some way, in a minority. Tolerance and acceptance is the way forward. Which takes us right back to the OP.

Oh, the ironing….

Wonder where we would be without our Christian society.

Well i guess if there is no God and we are all just the same as bacteria then nothing really matters, anything goes then must be the conclusion. Murder, rape, incest etc etc. Why buy anything when you could just take it.

That the real conclusion. Ah you say but there are laws to prevent this. Well if the only reason you dont go about murdering and raping is because you might get caught then its time to give it up.

TJ you just dont get it, Christians tell other people because thats what Jesus said we should do.

I just love the way that non Christians talk about intolerance in the same breath as condemning Christianity and shown what is shocking intolerance.

How about practising what you preach for a start.

Hope you enjoyed your Easter hols, or did you go into work claiming that you dont believe in Jesus, thought not!!!!

TandemJeremy – Member

Its like any type of cold caller – they have lost all right to polite behaviour once they have disturbed you.

I can see you have never done any canvassing in your life.

Do you think the Tories can be just “defeated” without anyone doing the hard slog of knocking on doors and guaranteeing getting the vote out on the day ?

And then you’ve got the nerve to complain about having a Tory government !

Shame on you – get your arse out next election and savour the delights of people telling you to piss off.

Well if the only reason you dont go about murdering and raping is because you might get caught then its time to give it up.

So what you’re saying is, the only reason you don’t go about murdering and raping is because your god tells you not to?

Wow. I take it back mate, you keep on believing, there’s a good chap.

He knows where you live cougar… 😯

AdamW – Member

Oh, the ironing….

You’ve noticed the irony of people showing intolerance on a thread about intolerance too ?

Well it is pretty obvious granted.

He knows where you live cougar…

Well, that’s omnipresence for you.

Thanks for that you had almost talked me out of it. PMSL

I just dont get what you want to achieve. Its actually quite sad really.

TJ you just dont get it, Christians tell other people because thats what Jesus said we should do.

No I do get it – but its arrogant to go around doing it and really quite objectionable – if you do this then you have to expect a reaction.

You want tolerance while being intolerant. If you want respect than respect me and my beliefs.

Sort of reminds me of when I was at college, all those years ago, having lunch in the refectory and someone shouted ‘Everyone listen!’ and did a stupid play about live not being worth anything. Afterwards they came around each table to talk to us about (oh – lets be “contemptuous”) God-squadding and letting someone called Jesus into our lives.

I was having my lunch. Me and my friends, just having our lunch and chatting. We, perfectly correctly, in my view, asked him if it was OK to have a bunch of satanists doing the same thing. Or Hindus, or Buddhists, or Muslims, or … basically any other religion. The answer was ‘no’, obviously.

Very rude words were said to him at that point about him forcing his views upon others and when he tried to challenge us to ‘prove him wrong’ by going to their church and doing the Alpha Course we all said more words and turned our backs to him.

But of course, what we did was intolerant. When someone has asked me to go to church and I’ve asked if I could bring my husband with me the answer has either been a crooked smile, followed by a hasty retreat, ignoring the comment or – at the worst, telling me I was evil, nasty, a PDO, a corrupter and would burn in hell for all eternity.

Of course, I *daren’t* say anything back because that would make me intolerant, of course. Silly me. All that hate directed at me and if I dare say anything to protect myself I should be, to quote someone who doesn’t understand what it is like to be hated just for existing as “a little more tolerant of other people lifestyles choices and beliefs, even when they think these are “wrong””.

Anyone got any tambourines I could use?

lol. Stevewhite, did you just pull that entire post from the poorly thought through book of clichés?

😀

Yes, and right underneath it said See Clubber. 😆 😆

I’m starting to sympathise with TJ now 😯
😉

I just dont get what you want to achieve. Its actually quite sad really.

I’m not sure as I understand where you’re going with this, could you clarify? Do you mean on this thread? Or in life? Or something else?

You want tolerance while being intolerant.

But TJ, mate, so do you. How do you expect them to respect your beliefs when you don’t respect theirs?

Personally, I reject the idea that beliefs should be granted automatic respect. Far too many people will believe any old horseshit. Respect is earned, not demanded.

TandemJeremy – Member

If you want respect than respect me and my beliefs.

I’m not sure that I can now.

You come on here on a daily basis ranting and raving and thumping your tub about the Tories on every political thread, and yet I’ve just discovered that you’ve never done any canvassing in your life.

How much respect do you expect an armchair/after-dinner activist to be shown ?

When someone has asked me to go to church and I’ve asked if I could bring my husband with me

Oh, I’m having that for the next time the JWs come a-knocking. “Sure, I’d love to talk, but I can’t stop long as I’m recovering from a blood transfusion from my boyfriend.”

The JWs are a goldmine of material for your average atheist looking to make a point, incidentally. Check out this little gem from their official site, an instruction leaflet for ‘young persons’ on how to avoid homosexuality. It’s a belter.

http://www.watchtower.org/e/200702b/article_01.htm

Remember kids, even deeply rooted wrong desires are not insurmountable. You just need to pray and shun gay propaganda. Don’t give up and you can change!

an armchair/after-dinner activist

“Passivist.”

AdamW – Member
Just been for a coffee. At the machine waiting and someone has printed out god-squad stuff for people to read and hung it near the machine.

So much for people keeping their religion to themselves.

Fortunately we have recycle bins nearby.

What bin to use for recycling a Christian Adam, hopefully one with a heavy lid on it.

Hmmmmm

for some odd reason its become important to me to try to show the religious on here that I really do respect religion when its in its proper sphere.

A couple of tales.

I used to be in charge of the unit where a very devout elderly woman lived. She had been a church elder. I made sure she had the opportunity to go to her church ( not the nearest, not the crappy monthly inpatient services) and as its not the sort of thing I could order someone to do to take her ( she needed a lot of assistance) I would do it if there were no volunteers. Now that took a chunk out of my working day and usually meant giving up some of my own time to do it. But I did. Why? Because it was the right thing to do. I just kept a respectful silence at the back of the church.

Another time a woman who was catholic was dying. I made sure the priest was there to give her the sacrament of the sick as I knew her and knew she would have wanted it. After she died her daughter was very upset and I arranged for her to see the hospital chaplain who I knew to be good at dealing with bereavement and who would be able to offer this woman the support I could not.

I could give plenty of other examples of where I have gone out of my way to make sure people had the freedom to worship