I'm a Christian, unless you're gay

no need to get angry mate

ME ? 😀

Why would I be angry ?

Cool, I like this thread. I’ll make an effort to be courteous and polite in it as well and I’ll leave my hot head at the door so we don’t get it locked. Always good to find people that can argue at a good level instead of the usual “rent-an-insult” trolls.

I don’t think religion in itself is bad, I just think that current western religion has inherited dogmatic flaws that it needs to move away from. It needs to become more flexible. Overall I think my stance is that religion has to change and become more flexible in it’s beliefs if it is to survive the 21st century, it needs to basically cut and paste the good bad bits and stop worrying about “sticking to the word of god” in it’s entirety but hey. Maybe a bit of “our father”, adam and eve, hellfire + brimstone and a little more teaching about how to love one another. Again opinions.

The problem is, it’s a bit of a catch-22. It’s hard to ‘update your ideas’ when you’re trading in belief systems. To make change betrays belief.

There is a market, I’m sure, for Christianity 2.0. One that embraces the modern world, teaches people to be nice, preaches acceptance irrespective of race, gender, orientation or belief, and so on.

The stumbling block there is that the upper echelons of Xianity have been going THIS IS THE WORD OF GOD YOU WILL COMPLY since the year dot, so suddenly backtracking and going “well, hang on, we think there might have been a translation error, here’s what we think now” is going to take some accepting.

Fundamentally, you can’t change a religion, you can only schism away from it (Catholics, JWs, Baptists, Protestants, Anglicans, etc etc).

I don’t think religion in itself is bad, I just think that current western religion has inherited dogmatic flaws that it needs to move away from. It needs to become more flexible.

Well, we keep having various periods of ‘enlightenment’.
Islam’s had 3 or 4 now, Christianity a couple but the liberal/fundamentalist cycle seems perpetual.

I’m an atheist who hopes that rationalism will eventually triumph.

Unfortunately, I have a sneaking suspicion that humanity might not be just be hardwired that way and as a species we’re doomed to follow some kind of theistic agenda.

If so, I vote for paganism; at least historically the rituals have a bit of excitement about them and it would be nice to have someone to blame if my lettuces don’t come up to scratch again next year.

I don ‘t get any religion let alone an evolving one. I thought there were a set of core beliefs. Changing them to suit current trends seems to me anyway a mockery of those core beliefs. The WORD of God is the WORD of God.. Isn ‘t it??

I don’t think religion in itself is bad, I just think that current western religion has inherited dogmatic flaws that it needs to move away from. It needs to become more flexible. Overall I think my stance is that religion has to change and become more flexible in it’s beliefs if it is to survive the 21st century, it needs to basically cut and paste the good bad bits and stop worrying about “sticking to the word of god” in it’s entirety but hey. Maybe a bit of “our father”, adam and eve, hellfire + brimstone and a little more teaching about how to love one another. Again opinions.

Whereas I do think religion is bad; essentially it’s been a system of control to manage the masses for many centuries. The Big Bloke In The Sky says you must do what he says, I’m his chosen representative, so follow me as you’d follow him. So long as sufficient credulous people believe that The Big Bloke exists, you can get away with it.

Other belief systems are available (hello Karl) but if you look all the way back to the very first humans, the leaders have always allied themselves with religion. This has really only changed in the last century in the Westernised democracies, but even now, you’ll not be elected in America unless you profess to a belief in The Big Bloke.

INRAS but I did read the OPs original links

and found it all a bit sad; so much angst and confusion over whether you need to be nice to people who are a bit different from you

it all just seems so unnecessary

and thats how i feel about religion in general

This is still the best reply from the thread:

I don’t like being preached at by anyone. I would be quite happy if people could be left to do their own thing. If someone is trying to convert me or get me to join in their thing (be it church, the mosque, a BNP march or voting for the greens), I am polite and say no thanks unless it interests me. They’ve done what they came to do, they’ve not bothered me too much so everyone is fine. Life’s too short to get upset because someone knocks on your door selling cutlery, double glazing or eternal life.

One thing nobody has mentioned is Religion is not compulsory or a way of life, you have a choice.

But for anybody who is Gay, there is only one choice as you fancy someone of your own sex, no ifs or buts, it wrecks a lot of relationships,no amount of preaching or saying its wrong will stop that feeling, and its not just like you stop going to church on a sunday,or reading the bible, its in their head, and it becomes a way of life for them.

Thats probably why places like Brighton, manchester and now strangely liverpool have their own gay quarters,and are packed at weekends where as most churches are down to a few churchgoers.

Nickf, I’m inclined to believe you and I’ve already said something very similar but I was trying to find some common ground with other posters. You know, trying not to come off too Richard Dawkins.

I reckon Dawkins gets a lot of bad press. When a telly programme wants to grab a token atheist he tends to be it. Even on his own scale of belief/unbelief in god(s) he comes 6 out of 7 (where 7 is “I know there is no god”) as he’s a scientist and knows you cannot prove a negative. He states he’s agnostic because of it.

I’ve read “The God Delusion” and even in that he says he’d be happy to worship, just show the evidence.

Its now a cliche for religious people to say twaddle like “Atheism *is* a religion and your archbishop is Richard Dawkins!”. I’ll be me own archbishop, thanks.

One thing nobody has mentioned is Religion is not compulsory or a way of life, you have a choice.

You may consider it indoctrination but I would argue that a lot of the religious people I know consider their religion as much of who they are as skin colour or sexuality. Also I feel uncomfortable saying that their beliefs are somehow less important than what someone else is from birth. Whether a part of your make-up is learned or innate, it’s part of you. If you asked people persecuted for their faiths or if you COULD ask those who died for their faiths I’m sure they’d tell you it wasn’t a “choice”.

One thing nobody has mentioned is Religion is not compulsory or a way of life, you have a choice

You have a choice …..really what % of jewsih people have jewish children?
Muslim people have muslim children et

As it is not what we would expect form random it would appear you dont have a choice any more than you choose which language you speak…it is a choice made for you by someone else.

You may then break free in the same sense I may become a fluent french speaker but it is very very unlikely.

“I can just imagine Matthew,Mark Luke and John et al sat around deciding how best to pull it all together so that in a couple of millennia’s time in an as yet largely unpopulated country half way across the world George W could hoodwink the world with his Bible in his quest for US supremacy in the Middle East”

is that not what infact happened at the council of Nicea when the first approved version of the Gospels was made up and all the unapproved stuff redacted?

I reckon Dawkins gets a lot of bad press. When a telly programme wants to grab a token atheist he tends to be it.

So he gets the maximum opportunity to put his views across and this represents “bad press” ?

Well presumably he’s only got himself to blame for that.

You have a choice …..really what % of jewsih people have jewish children?
Muslim people have muslim children et

As it is not what we would expect form random it would appear you dont have a choice any more than you choose which language you speak…it is a choice made for you by someone else.

You may then break free in the same sense I may become a fluent french speaker but it is very very unlikely.

Not really.

I was brought up in an Anglican household, was an altarboy, chorister and crucifer, and can debate Christianity with you until the cows come home. As I got older I started to question the beliefs of my not-that-strict church and by my 20s had rejected them all.

I think it’s fair to say that I’ve fully broken away from Christianity (and, indeed, from any form of religion, organised or otherwise).

So he gets the maximum opportunity to put his views across and this represents “bad press” ?

Well presumably he’s only got himself to blame for that.

Not when idiots see someone just chatting then a while later do the ‘Shrill Neo-Militant Atheists!’ routine.

Happens all the while in politics. Look as some of your own ‘arguments’. 😕

AdamW, your presumed putdown would have had more effect if I knew what you were talking about.

Still never mind, take it that I have been suitably chastised.

Ernie – you have so many arguments on here that I agree it must be difficult. Then again you are keeping to your usual modus operandi of discussion so I guess your comment is to be expected.

Thank you for being chastised. I hope you now feel better. Don’t do it again!

And with that, am outta here. May pop back in a few months. There are trails to ride and I really can’t be asked with arguing all the time. Gotta train for Mayhem too! 😀

Oh Ernie. I said I’d be back in a while. I know you’re sad and are waiting earnestly for me.

Is that the best you can do?

The Sea Otter is most disappointed in you.

Oh Ernie. I said I’d be back in a while.

It wouldn’t be a proper flounce if you didn’t come back.

I’ll be waiting earnestly for you. Try not to make it too long. Although try to stretch it beyond 22 minutes.

Adam ever thought Ernie may have the hots for you. 😳

You not being a christian like.

EDIT

Although try to stretch it beyond 22 minutes.

Don’t know if I can now. I don’t want to deprive you. I know it must be difficult. Try not to cry too much.

EDIT: tell you what, I’ll stay tonight. If that’s what you want. Is this some form of bromance on your side?

EDIT2: Oh, should that be me posting this then?

… and so this is what it comes to. As usual. 🙄

to be fair woppit it got to page 12 before the slapping started

fortunately some christians have found a cure for being gay so this problem is all fixed, and they are going to advertise it on buses

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/12/christian-anti-gay-ads-buses

you would think that they could spend their money on something more wortwhile.

like getting out more.

I’m always amused by the “leave them alone they’re not doing anything wrong, it’s only a harmless superstition, don’t be so horrible” brigade.

Religion is not harmless.

Here’s today’s drag through the swamp: http://www.secularism.org.uk/media-round-up.html

Religion is not harmless.

Amen to that.

crankboy – Member
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/12/christian-anti-gay-ads-buses

HA, HA, Boris banned the adverts,

Thanks Woppit

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I am never visiting that site again, don’t think my blood pressure could take it.

The Association of Catholic Priests (ACP), which has had one of its founding members silenced by the Vatican for his views,

silenced? Silenced how? Killed off? Cut out his tongue?
from irish catholics want normal people as priests you know women and married blokes and stuff

Not really.

I was brought up in an Anglican household, was an altarboy, chorister and crucifer, and can debate Christianity with you until the cows come home. As I got older I started to question the beliefs of my not-that-strict church and by my 20s had rejected them all.

I think it’s fair to say that I’ve fully broken away from Christianity (and, indeed, from any form of religion, organised or otherwise).
so you were brought up an anglican in an anglican household then rather than a jew or a muslim in an anglican household…how exactly is that countering my point?
Yes some break free but the choice of the religion was not made by you. Most/many lots/some brought up like you dont break free either but that is another debate
Do anglicancs have more anglican children than jews of Muslims …it is not a choice its indoctrination [ of sorts is there a weaker word i can use as it is not quite brain washing I accept that obviously] that does not always work.

“reject faith” != “change faith”.

Plenty of people grow up and go “hang on, this is bobbins, isn’t it.” Comparatively few people are brought up as, say, Roman Catholics and then decide as an adult that, actually, Islam is where it’s at.

read the thread [someone has to do 😉 ]- I was answering something from pages ago

One thing nobody has mentioned is Religion is not compulsory or a way of life, you have a choice

I was saying you dont have a choice in the traditional sense as you usually have it thrust on you by your parents which you can then choose to reject as an adult7Muslims have muslims, jews have jews,anglicans have anglicans it is not a choice

You dont get to go to all the religions places of worships and be taught their ways and then pick one you parents choose[force you] for you

read the thread

bit cheeky aiming that at the OP!

couldn’t figure out from cougars post whether he was agreeing/disagreeing with you or just making a point.