I'm a bird-murdering, sheep-worrying, landscape wrecker.

….apparently. And theres a good chance you might be too.

Out for a ride last night, on our usual local trails, that do admittedly involve a certain amount of cheek (you cannot actually put a decent route together without riding footpaths), when we noticed some new signage has gone up…..

Now I’ll be honest, on reading our new signage, the first words our of our mouthes weren’t very complimentary. Expletives may have been uttered.

Lets ignore the other issues – the so-called ‘maintenance’ of the bridleways which seems to involve tipping a load of builders rubble in the biggest craters once every ten years, or where on earth they got the figure of 10k of bridleways from? And concentrate on the negative claims…….

I was wondering, rather than just dismissing it out-of-hand as completely spurious, alarmist bollocks, is there any evidence whatsoever that mountain bikes on footpaths are the cause of any of the issues claimed above. Any more than walkers or fell runners would?

And I can use google on the subject, before you start, and all I kind find in the way of evidence are links to forums for twitchers and walkers stating that mountain biking must be bad for wildlife, and erosion because, well…. they just must be, mustn’t they?

Nobody is putting forward any evidence to support this at all. They’re just claiming it to be so, because they have concluded in their own heads that it must be, so therefore its now a FACT!

So would it be unreasonable to contact NT, and ask them what they’re basing their claims on, and ask to see some facts to actually support this? Because it sounds pretty spurious to me, to say the least.

I can’t find any reference to the Holcombe moor commoners association supposedly responsible for this

Does this also apply to runners, walkers, children, dog walkers etc?

Should just read…

Anyone not walking can just eff off.
If we dont like you you can just eff off.
Especially bikes… pesky cheery bike riders can especially eff off.
Errr.. Thanks you

It is illegal to ride on the footpaths or the moor itself.

Some people must not be keeping to the paths……….

Although I admit this could also be walkers and such like!!

I bet dogs cause a lot more trouble for nesting birds and sheep than any amount of cyclists.

Cyclists will tend to stick to trails (cheeky or otherwise) whereas dogs will root around in the undergrowth until they find something warm, moving, and delicious, and then eat it.

I have two dogs, so I should know.

So you could do worse than to ask them if they have any actual evidence. I bet they won’t.

Bloody Commoners

Some similarly hyperbolic signage round here put up by the Forestry Commission was changed after people pointed out its stupidity so I’d say it’s worth contacting the NT (nicely!).

As far as worrying wildlife and sheep is concerned loose dogs are a far worse problem than mountain bikes and I don’t see them mentioned. On erosion they may have a point – some cyclist seem prepared to widen paths to ridiculous extents to avoid getting their bikes muddy and in the process turn nice singletrack into something resembling a motorway construction site. Walkers may also contribute to this of course…

http://www.holcombehunt.com

So its ok to run marauding packs of hounds followed by Tory MPs on horses across the moor in pursuit of small mammals to murder though. That won’t cause any sheep to miscarry.

😯

EDIT

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/holcombe-moor-firing-times

Nor will the MOD practising live firing upset any of the local wildlife.

Of course you may be (probably are) a contributor to all those things, more so than legitimate users though? Probably not.

Does the sign suggest that legitimate users are not contributing to these problems? No it doesn’t, it just states you are.

It’s a foot path (I assume PRoW) so they can’t well put up signs saying walkers etc aren’t permitted because you’re not good for the environment and it’s wildlife, rather they have to grin and bear it.

Cyclists on the other hand aren’t allowed so the damage you do could be negated by you following the convention that foot paths are not for bikes.

Like it or not you’re in the wrong, expect to be pilloried for it. I imagine the signs will mage zero difference to you any way.

Had a quick search, and found indications that some studies have been done on relative disturbance to nesting birds causing by hiking and mountain biking but I failed to track down the studies themselves.

But there are loads of papers showing that dogs have a high impact on nesting birds! Eg http://www.jstor.org/stable/3783988?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

I’d question whether that really comes from the NT or has been put up by the commoners, whoever they are.

The only time I’m wary of cheeky trails is on grouse moor. You can argue the act of trespass all you like, but if a rich landowner decides you’ve “damaged” his birds so he can’t shoot them out of the sky a few weeks later, I reckon there’s a high chance they can afford better lawyers than me.

As for sheep-worrying, I’ve been asked by farmers to slow down riding at night in lambing season which is fair enough, but as it was on a legal RoW (BOAT in this case) they could only ask.

I guess the speed (and relative silence) of bikes could shock animals more than walkers do (although not sure about runners), but you could argue that there’s nothing to stop walkers stomping all over over bids nests etc.

Anyway, ask NT what’s going on, but ultimately the sign is only highlighting the present law to which you ought to be abiding. They’re not actually restricting anything, unless they’re actually setting up more rangers to prosecute trespassers.

Day 1 of not smoking and you are already looking for a fight. This is going to be tough 😉

So its ok to run marauding packs of hounds followed by Tory MPs on horses across the moor in pursuit of small mammals to murder though.

Well put.

Convert – I know. I normally hit peak obnoxiousness after day 4. Its all downhill from here. Well… until Friday, anyway 😉

So you could do worse than to ask them if they have any actual evidence. I bet they won’t.

would be interesting to see what “supposed” proof backs up their claims

I’d question whether that really comes from the NT or has been put up by the commoners, whoever they are.

this was my initial thought too

Bird Murdering …yup ,we have two cats.

Sheep bothering ..Hmm,not for a while,and it never did go to court.

Landscape Wrecker ..Yup ,a shortcut over the 9th tee on an MX bike may have been a bit inconsiderate

Since when did NT have any involvement in Holcombe Moor!

dangeourbrain – Member
Of course you may be (probably are) a contributor to all those things, more so than legitimate users though? Probably not.
Does the sign suggest that legitimate users are not contributing to these problems? No it doesn’t, it just states you are.
It’s a foot path (I assume PRoW)

Sign says bridleway. Makes him a legitimate user no?

The most damage I’ve ever seen to bridleways, making them virtually impassable by bikes and walkers is from horses.
It’s wrong they single out cyclists there.

load of b*ll*cks, ignore

Since when did NT have any involvement in Holcombe Moor!

That was my initial question too. Its the first I’ve heard about it. I’ve been riding those trails for a long time, and I’ve lived up there for years now, and never seen any hint of the NT there. Absolutely no signs of their presence at all, up until these signs going up

@ devash – the Holcombe Hunt is a fell pack, the followers are on foot (like John Peel). Now you may know different but I can’t see your average (fully fit?) Tory MP hunt supporter walking to far from there range rover.

I have been told by an employee (former) of the NT that they keep records of car number plates that they suspect are owned by cyclists who are using their land. This included the names and addresses of the owners. This was for the Goyt Valley area.

It’s a rather aggressive sign aimed at one specific group of users, it’s also incorrect other than the fact that the negatives mentionned can be attributed to other users as well (horse riders for example to whom exactly the same rules apply) but as we all know trespass is a civil offence, not criminal so unless there are specific bylaws in place straying off the bridleway is not illegal.

Rather than worry about finding it your self I’d be asking for their evidence to back up claims and why they deem it acceptable to single out one user group over all others.

It’s a real shame the guardian of our country side (the NT) still doesn’t recognise cyclists as a legitmate user group.

Holcombe Moor has been NT for years, there were signs in the little car park balf way along the road. My guess is this more related to the ‘commoners’ who ever they are.

I have been told by an employee (former) of the NT that they keep records of car number plates that they suspect are owned by cyclists who are using their land. This included the names and addresses of the owners. This was for the Goyt Valley area.

That sounds a bit dodgy to me. What legitimate reason are they holding that information for? Could see this falling foul of the Data Protection Act

Anyway, that sign would probably make a nice tea tray once you’ve taken it off that gate 😉

I have been told by an employee (former) of the NT that they keep records of car number plates that they suspect are owned by cyclists who are using their land. This included the names and addresses of the owners. This was for the Goyt Valley area.

my name and address isn’t on my number plate

did the former employee claim they looked up registered owner details with the DVLA for cars they suspected were owned by cyclists? I’m no data protection expert but i’d assume you need a bit more justification than “I think it’s owned by a cyclist who might be riding on a footpath”

IMBA did a study into this about a decade ago and found essentially the opposite to what that sign claims. They found that bikes scare and trouble wildlife much less because they pass more quickly and more quietly. They are also much less likely to have dogs with them.

With regards to erosion they and a study by the University of St Andrews found that bikes individually cause slightly more erosion than Walkers but much less than horses. However because there are many times more walkers the conclusion was that bikes as a user group contribute far less erosion. They are also more likely to go through puddles than around them so have a smaller effect on trail widening than walkers.

I’m on a phone so can’t find it but it was published about ten years ago and the results were in MBR at the time.

See, this is ALL YOUR FAULT!

Stay on the bridleway* and there’s no problem

*don’t get seen/caught riding on the footpath. i.e carry on as normal

IMBA info.

The sign is about 50 yards up from there Esme. See all that water? That ended up running past our house and lifting all the pavements up and causing plenty of structural damage.

Perhaps its karma? 😥

I would be taking a pen to that and making it more inclusive so the wording is for everyone.

A pen?

If only I knew someone who knew about the print process, and could rustle up something visually identical, but with different wording.

But where would I find such a man?

I’m sure that sign won’t last long 😆

(given the location, I suspect the shiny metal gates won’t last long either…)

I would be tempted to challenge that with a cleverly written solicitors letter, challenging the claims.
also it looks to me as though it is not NT but the commoners who have created the sign, NT might be a bit miffed if they find their name is being used without their permission.

But best thing to do is tear it down and sh1t on it. then leave it by the gate.
The claims are ridiculous and unfounded, the number one problem for sheep and nesting birds is dogs.
cyclists have been proven to have negligible impact on either and as for erosion, the weather is the biggest factor coupled with poor maintenance, or badly executed maintenance.
The paths they talk of are scars in the landscape caused by walkers.
but that is negligible compared tot he fact that grouse moor is a fake landscape, effectively a managed rifle range.
the burn back and grouse management cause the erosion and flooding.

this whole issue winds me up and NT are complicit as they are the cronies that keep the status quo

Ed

Have you tried Twitter yet? I find they are great at this sort of thing.

Put a notice beside it with similar information for horse riders and dog walkers. See how long they stay up

From Foundation for Common Land:

Over the last 20 years the amount of people using (Holcombe) moor for recreational purposes has increased dramatically. Forty years ago there were problems with motor bikes and tipping in the local quarries.

Nowadays there are mountain bikers and large parties of walkers and dogs, camping, fly-tipping, fires, alcohol and drug dealing and the illegal use of firearms.

Those who farm beside quarries have fencing stolen overnight to fuel fires. They can be woken up by thumping music from raves held in the quarries. Farm gates are opened or taken off their hinges allowing the in-bye cattle and sheep to escape.

I thought homosexuals caused the flooding in Somerset ?

Would be very surprised and quite annoyed if the the NT has had anything to do with this – it seems to be the work of someone rather ill-informed

I’d bring this to the attention of OpenMTB

http://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/openmtb-the-new-uk-access-organisation/%5B/url%5D

https://www.facebook.com/OpenMTB