'I have never yet come across an engineer who can turn his hands to business'

Artist/furniture designer – more arty than engineering methinks.

you don’t know ANYTHING about James Dyson then.
He is very much an engineer – hence the very engineered look of his cleaning products. not really product designed in a styling sense. pure function over form

software engineering is something different, and of it’s own right, that has (unfortunately, IMO) adopted ‘engineering’ as part of the description

Why? Cos it’s easier? Cos there’s no greasy fingers involved?

It’s different, but then building bridges is different to making engines and they are both done by engineers.

Technician – follows instructions to get something fixed… like a car repair manual, or guide on how to install some software.

Engineer – has the ability to think creatively when the above doesn’t work. i.e. milling a part to fix the car, or hacking the registry to enable the software installation. The engineer actually designs a solution for the problem.

That’s the difference IMHO between technicians and engineers. And yes, ‘software engineers’ are engineers to me….. low level ‘programmers’ would be technicians, who aren’t required to think per-se.

you don’t know ANYTHING about James Dyson then.
He is very much an engineer – hence the very engineered look of his cleaning products. not really product designed in a styling sense. pure function over form

I think you’ll find I know a fair bit about him and he didn’t “design” any of it, all the stuff after the first prototype was the product of his employee’s (product designers), and he isn’t an engineer he is an arts graduate. He would not and could not call to mind any fluid dynamics/structural/materials engineering as he does not know or use any.

I’m not dissing him, I’m just pointing out that he is in no way an engineer so he doesn’t fit the bill to refute Sugar’s assertion.

In fact your assertion that his stuff “looks” very engineered just proves that he is a product designer, capable of capturing the Zeitgeist and making people think that his stuff works just by how it looks.

There are few programmers who just bash out simple code based on full and complete specs.

Part of the problem with Software Engineering is that it’s not treated rigorously by those paying for it and many of those who actually do it.

Which is why so much software is so sht.

It’s different, but then building bridges is different to making engines and they are both done by engineers

Exactly – the skill-set for engineering engines and bridges is broadly similar. Designing, optimising and implimenting software is a broadly different skillset – as, perhaps, a crass example, if I asked you to predict the fatigue life of an engine component, would your technical qualifications allow you to do that? By comparision, as engineer myself I have only a passing interest in coding, beyond the bits I can cobble together to automate routine tasks.

Engineer – has the ability to think creatively when the above doesn’t work

Is that not being too general – you could be describing a doctor diagnosing and treating a patient in a similar way? But they aren’t some form of ‘human engineering technician’?

Ah, I see. Not real engineers then. Thanks for clarification.

Don’t talk shite

He’s not. A real engineer can make things. REAL things. Out of metal usually, in a lathe, or with spanners and stuff, or maybe bricks and mortar.

My dad is an engineer. He made stuff from metal and fixed big machines.
I have a mate who is as well: He’s currently building his second MTB frame, welded up in a jig he made himself, with tubing from a pipe bender he made himself becasue commercial ones are rubbish. He has lathes and a pillar drill in his garage, and swarf on the floor. THAT’S engineering!!

Software “engineer”. Don’t make me laugh! 🙂

Karl Benz didn’t do too badly.

Ref to loads of eponymously titled German mega engineering corps who are all far far far bigger than anything Sugar will ever build.

Of course not, but if I asked you to design a thread-safe connection pool for a high load system, would you be able to do that?

“Engineer” from the French “ingénieur”, ie someone with inginuity who can design a solution to a problem.
Be it a car engine, a bridge, a comuter programme.

BTW, I’ve a MEng in automotive engineering and am working towards Chartership with the IMechE.

A real engineer can make things

A real engineer can make design things

PeterPoddy do you not think software is “real”? Do you live in the 1960s?

THAT’S engineering!!

I’d call it fabrication, PeterTroller PeterPoddy.

“Computer Engineer” = Nerd.

End of thread.

Right come on then when is someone an engineer:

Someone who fiex cars – mechanic.
Someone who fixes your washing machine – mechanic.
Someone who produces technical drawings – technician.
Someone who operates a lathe – still not an engineer……

A real engineer can make things. REAL things.

Like a brick layer, a car mechanic, a painter?

A software engineer also makes things. Are you saying software isn’t real? How did I see your message if it’s not real? How am I replying if it’s not real? Perhaps one of us is mad?

PeterPoddy do you not think software is “real

Well, can I hold it in my hands? Nope. It exists as letters and numbers inside a machine.

If software is engineering, then so is being an author: I could be a ‘Romance Enginner’ if I wrote a love story for example…..

the guy who founded our company was an engineer, as was the guy who started our uk office, and after about 20 years, the founder flogged the lot and now spends his time doing trackdays on fast bikes, or ragging around in one of his porches, among other things. the engineer who opened our office is spending his time building houses and taking his formula ford to trackdays.
apparently the company who bought us ‘had very deep pockets’. they’ve done ok as far as i can tell.

Btw. I’ve yet to come across a boss of a business who isn’t a pompous twit.

Like a brick layer, a car mechanic, a painter?

A brick layer follws the design of a Civil engineer
A mechanic fixes things (I’m a mechanic)
And a painter is an artist, who copies real things.

Of course not, but if I asked you to design a thread-safe connection pool, would you be able to do that?

No, but as an engineer, I wouldn’t be expected to – I’m not belittling the skills set, all I’m saying is I don’t see ‘software engineering’ being connected to the skillset taught to professional engineers beyond the scope/optimise/impliment “umbrella”

Last time I checked, certainly at my old Uni, software engineering was being taught as a course unit as part of a computer science degree in the context of bringing design rigour to software development – there was no ‘software engineering’ degree in it’s own right.

EDIT: Spot the much needed ‘NOT’ 😉

“Computer Engineer” = Nerd.

Stroppy nerd, it seems….,[quote 😈

PeterPoddy you can’t conceptualize things that you can’t hold in your hands? Bless.

He’s not. A real engineer can make things. REAL things. Out of metal usually, in a lathe, or with spanners and stuff, or maybe bricks and mortar.

Are people who write the low level code to make robotic arms work engineers then? There must be some engineering in an arm building part of a car or in building the arm, so surely the person who told the arm what to do (but didn’t put the hardware together) is classed as an engineer?

If software is engineering, then so is being an author: I could be a ‘Romance Enginner’ if I wrote a love story for example

Do you not think there are rigorous principles behind Software Engineering then?

So is Coputer Software engineering science or engineering. Basically if it is an applied science then it is tending towards engineering.

“Engineer – has the ability to think creatively when the above doesn’t work. i.e. milling a part to fix the car…”

No thats a good mechanic as opposed to a fitter.

To engineer you have to understand the forces and then design a solution rather than just making something fit or using trial and error.

Are people who write the low level code to make robotic arms work engineers then?

No. But the bloke that made the arm might be…. He might also be a mechanic….

(This is like shooting fish in a barrel….. 😉 )

An engineeer can write software, its one of his tools. But someone who can only write software is probably not an engineer imho.

Er, Ove Arup?

Last time I checked, certainly at my old Uni, software engineering was being taught as a course unit as part of a computer science degree in the context of bring design rigour to software development – there was not ‘software engineering’ degree in it’s own right

That varies according to the uni in question ime.

No, but as an engineer, I wouldn’t be expected to – I’m not belittling the skills set, all I’m saying is I don’t see ‘software engineering’ being connected to the skillset taught to professional engineers beyond the scope/optimise/impliment “umbrella”

The concepts are very similar. The medium is different, but that doesn’t matter. You’re still a linguist if you study French or Proto-European aren’t you?

Last time I checked, certainly at my old Uni, software engineering was being taught as a course unit as part of a computer science degree in the context of bring design rigour to software development – there was not ‘software engineering’ degree in it’s own right.

There’s both bachelors and masters degrees in software engineering at the uni I went to.

So is Coputer Software engineering science or engineering

To be honest, I’d say it’s a skill, or maybe an art. But it ain’t making anything. Do you ‘make’ a computer program, or ‘write’ it?

An engineeer can write software, its one of his tools

In the same way that I can change a cambelt.. 🙂

If an engineer can design systems to the same level that I can then he is also a software engineer – no questions there.

So is Coputer Software engineering science or engineering

Ah.. Computer Science is a different ballgame altogether.

Do you ‘make’ a computer program, or ‘write’ it?

Doesn’t matter. ‘Write’ is a specialization of ‘make’ in this case.

Software Engineer = Pedantic nerd.

Software ‘engineer’ is a grand title, nothing more.

Like ‘marine coating and heating technician’….

Software Engineer = Pedantic nerd.

And vitally so 🙂

Software ‘engineer’ is a grand title, nothing more

Grand title for what? A menial job?

Stop trying to troll, PeterPoddy 😛

An engineeer can write software, its one of his tools

In the same way that I can change a cambelt..

So he would be a ‘software mechanic’ then?

Steve Jobs and Bill Gates were engineers – Software Engineers

Lets all play nice – that can of worms has been kicked to death on here before 🙂

Not done enough, it seems!

FWIW, I’m am embedded software engineer with a degree in electrical and electronic engineering. Is an electronic engineer who designs FPGAs an engineer? What if he does it by writing VHDL code?

The concepts are very similar

The METHODOLOGY is broadly similar, as it is for most applied sciences (medicine/dentistry/vets – applied biology etc), but the concepts required for implimentation are NOT similar. See my example above, where we both agree we couldn’t do each others job – I would expect a Aero or Civil engineer to be able to rock up at my desk and we’d be, conceptually, talking the same language.

In the same way that I can change a cambelt..

Non-comparision – you didn’t engineer the cambelt, you followed the instructions on how to do it. Likewise, I blindly follow the help manual like any fool when knocking up bits of code.