HR experts out there – "you may be required to work additional hours" query

Morning all

There’s been some good HR advice on here in the past; I wonder if any of you can help?

I have been backed in to a corner by my employer, and against my principles I am being forced to think of some potential fire-with-fire techniques.

I am contracted to 37.5 hours, with the usual clause of “You may be required to work such additional hours to fully perform your job in accordance with the needs of the business.”

In reality I am expected to, and have worked 42.5 hours every single week for as long as I can remember.

Is there any mileage in claiming the additional hours on the basis that it is not a case of “may be required” but actually the week in week out reality?

I don’t actually want the money, simply to make a point.

Thanks

Say you don’t mind working the additional hours per week, but you will expect it back in time owed.

The contract is there for when you might have a last minute project in for tomorrow, and you need to stay at work until 9pm to get it done.

Its complex and depends to some extent what is in your contract – and working this time for a period of time could mean you have accepted it.

I believe you should either be paid for the extra hours or be able to accrue time owing to take back.

However it is not clear cut – you need real advice. Ask your union full time officer 😉

Personally I would never work extra hours without pay. effectivly you have had a 10% pay cut

Why do they even get to put 37.5hrs in your contract if you have to work longer as a matter of routine? That just cant be right, you should be getting paid surely.

Do you have annual appraisals? Would seem a good time to raise it, especially if there’s anything negative in the appraisal – not sure I’d make it an issue on it’s own.

My own contract is similar, 37.5 hours contracted but additional hours expected if required (a lot of my work is project based so my workload is highly variable). To be fair they don’t take the piss and I even occasionally do log a 37.5 timesheet but I usually work 40-45 hours. There are some people in other teams though that have been doing 60+ hour weeks for several months (without O/T) frankly I’d have drawn a line in the sand long before then.

That does seem to be a very popular contract condition. I have it in my current and it was in previous contracts. My take on it, no legal basis, is if there is a rush on etc and they need a few extra hours then they expect you to deliver, within reason. Part of the give and take but you should have to do this every week. In return if I need to go to the dentist etc during work time then I would not expect it to be a problem.

try working in the city and being a clockwatcher…

try working in the city and being a clockwatcher

or the transport industry

Edit: btw I’m not patronising just stating a fact

Don’t patronise me TurnerGuy. I have worked for years whatever hours I am required often in the middle of the night on big crane lifts, road closures, whatever.

As I said at the start, I am trying to fight my corner in the face of poor treatment by my employer, and I’m looking for an angle.

I suspect that as TJ says, the very fact that I have done it for years without hesitation is probabaly going to be the issue here.

why do they do this

They base your holiday and sick pay on your contract not what you work so it saves them money
I fyou are salried they have effectively reduced your hourly rate

They are taking the piss they owuld not pay you if you dod not work so why should you work fo rnot getting poaid…its what iots all about

I would throw sick weeks to balance things if I am honest – if they want to take the piss I would to balance it.

Etc hours when busy for short periods is one thing but as a rule no chance

In reality I am expected to, and have worked 42.5 hours every single week for as long as I can remember

Think this is key. If they expct you to work 42.5 hours then I’d think it should be in your contract.

Having said that i’m on 37.5 hours a week, some weeks i’ll do a similar 42.5, some I wont. I do this because the job needs finishing for a certain deadline etc…

i have similar in my contract

whn in office i do my contracted hours

when im working abroad i do more – but im renumerated to suit- and frankly what else am i going to do when im away really ?

if i was office based and i was doing it weekly id be piping up – even just to highlight the fact to my boss

Surely if you start arguing the case with them, you might be out of a job pretty soon, or is that what your trying to achieve?

Just to add to the well I do this… Mrs FD routinely works 60-70 hour weeks and gets paid for 42, and her employer has told her she must come in to work on rota’ed (sp?) off days and should not take all her annual leave…. big national employer too.

FunkyDunc – she needs to join a union ASAP – they are breaking the law in a big way

My take on this is that your employer isn’t going to randomly pay you a bit extra “if it’s needed” so there’s no way I’d be working longer hours “if it’s needed” on a regular basis. (of course if on the very odd occasion the poo hits the fan then I’ll pitch in).

I value my spare time and it’s worth way more than spending time at work.

but back to the OP…

I don’t think legally an employer can force you to work those extra hours above your contract (but I’m not an expert). However…. they can probably make your life a little difficult and set targets that manage you out of the business. So, I’d just choose to not work for such a company.

Brycey

I don’t actually want the money, simply to make a point.

There is lots of sensible advice that you will receive here on general points and having worked all my life in an industry where it is taken as read that you work more than the hours in your contract I am not in a good place to advise, other that on you final comment that I highlighted above.

On that basis 100% do not go there. It will end in tears, for you. If you have a genuine grievance then follow other people’s advice but this is not the climate for making points of principle.

this is not the climate for making points of principle

Damn good advice. Just get your head down and find another employer that doesn’t want to stitch you up / take advantage if and when you can.

“her employer has told her she must come in to work on rota’ed (sp?) off days and should not take all her annual leave…. big national employer too. “

get it in an email …….. that would make for interesting

TJ she is in a union.

Thats being a hospital doctor for you though.

In fact they were told further that if they dont attend 60% of all Friday afternoon training session (which may fall on a non rota’ed day, or an annual leave day) then they will not be signed off for the year and therefore progress.

Mrs FD quite commonly will work a night shift then have to go to training on a Friday afternoon…

It’s pretty normal in a number of industries, doesn’t make it right though. I suspect you options will be take it or leave. I also suspect this bit:

I don’t actually want the money, simply to make a point.

means you are onto a loser from the start

when you sign up for a job, you should understand the working hours culture rather than what is written on your contract.
going against the culture will inevitably hold your career back unless everyone else in the company chooses to do the same.
unions are only really helpful when acting on behalf of a large group, or individuals who are on their way out.

Some good advice as I expected.

I wasn’t that clear at the start, I do have another job and I’m starting it soon, so rocking the boat with my current lot doesn’t bother me in the slightest. I had planned to part on good terms but they have made that impossible. On that basis I am attempting to defend my position, and thought an overtime claim could be a way of doing this.

Thanks all for the contributions anyway.

Funkydunc – she neeeds to get them sorted out then. 48 hr week max now IIRC for junior docs.

Brycey – don’t burn your bridges. Ever. It won’t achieve anything and you never know when you’ll work with / against someone from your current employer. If you are leaving for definite soon, then just do your contracted hours, get paid and look forward to your new job.

+1 contracted hours only. If you’re leaving anyway and your hours are, say 9am-5pm with 1/2hr lunch, that’s the hours you need to be working. Not a minute more

Brycey – give us the full info, eh?

Are they trying to make you do overtime during your notice period?

I’ve been in this situation myself with a 3 month notice period, I enjoy a fight so played hardball… I’ll never work for that company again though.

You’re not in Oxfordshire are you?

+1 on Sam’s comments. Never, ever burn your bridges, however much you want to. Bite your lip and move on.

Good luck BTW

TJ show me one hospital doc in the UK that works 48hrs max per week, and I’m not just talking junior docs either.

I had planned to part on good terms but they have made that impossible.

What, buy making you spend an extra hour a day at work?

You may not be well paid, and I’ll sure as hell back up anyone on exploitation by their employers, but you’re really prepared to fall out with an ex-employer over this?

I genuinely don’t understand.

Dunc – the ones I met recently in the local rehab hospital. My understanding is their rotas are the same across the lothians with a 48 hr week of shift work with no on call and no overtime.

buy making you spend an extra hour a day at work?

I would not spend an extra minute if they were not paying me never mind an hour a day when I was leaving. If i stop working for them will they keep payinmg me? madness I would also say the phrase what you going to do sack me and they go of ill 😀

They are your employer they are not your friend, they have not got your back , your hard work will not be rewarded later. Its not like you are helping a mate move house and in 8 years they will help you lay a patio.. They only care about the money they can make from you not you – the more “loyal” you are the more they make as you are working for free. Imagine 500 employees do one hour each per week for free that like having 13.3 extra staff [ 37.5 week] of course they encourage this culture it free labour.
Why some on here think they should go the extra mile is lost on me **** em they don’t care and are just exploiting you good nature.

i’ve been a salesman for 20 years and every contract I’ve signed has this clause, never once been held to it. I struggle to imagine a situation where I’ve ever felt the need to use my contract to defend the hours I put in.

I’ve been chewed up and spat out by numerous companies over the years and I (as said earlier in the thread) never burn my bridges, I professionally move on and look upwards.

I was managed out of a business in August (came on here for advice back then) and within a month found work. A month into that job I’ve been poached by a competitor to the company who got rid of me via compromise agreement, £8K pa more basic, nicer car, better products and OTE of about £30K more if I bring in the same business i was bringing in for previous lot.

I call it Karma myself.

Ourmaninthenorth, I’m not complaining about working the extra hour, I have done it without complaint for years. My work are going back on a deal we had relating to my notice period, and I’m looking for an “angle” to defend myself.

TSY – agreed to pay in lieu of notice if I finished a project. Now changed tune.

If you have signed a contract for 37.5 hrs and you are expected to do extra hrs at sometime
Then that is totally up to you. Thats when its convenient for you too.

If they are making threats, then they are braking your employment rights
I would keep a diary of events and then if you are to take it further get
outside advice on this first and then take it from there.

I have had this before but I knew my worth many years back

suprised nobodys mentioned the words ‘custom and practice’.

If it has gone on for long enough(don’t know how long) it is taken as ‘agreement’ by both parties under custom and practice. You should be entitled to be paid (or t.o.i.l) for the full 42.5 hrs, if you can show that you have regularly worked these hrs for a period of time.

edit: sorry thought you were continuing employment with them. Not sure if you can backdate.

Invoice for the extra time see how they react!

I had considered that JP, but on the contrary assumed it meant that as I was working those hours I was accepting them (at basic salary).

I am contracted to work 36 hours and I work 36 hours, used to be ok when it was swings and roundabouts on time, but companies can’t have it all their own way

Any extra hours are those I volunteer for and paid at overtime rate, when i’m there I work properly and then its home time and all contact is severed

Does the Working Rule Agreement not come into this?