Thanks @Tired see if I can find one used or save up a bit extra, so what kind of gains did you see vs the Defy?

BTW going from a roadbike with optimized TT bars to TT bike with the same only saved 3 watts riding at 40kph in this test https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lK1xC0Z5FA

So, frame alone doesn’t matter much, about the same or even less than your helmet?

The frame will never make that much difference, how different is an aero frame to a non aero frame and how much impact does the frame have on the overall aerodynamics (you are talking saves against low single figure %).

And if you are commuting does it really matter if you are 0.2 mph faster overall?

As I don’t run brakes I can change bars within a minute so often change from a riser to a drop to a bullhorn. When I have drops I am in the drops most of the time as I don’t have hoods so pretty much whole ride is with my head down and body low. The difference in time over an hour loop with different bars varies as much as my times vary on how I am feeling that day on the same bars. Sometimes I am even slower in the drops.

This is an exercise in overthinking.

So, frame alone doesn’t matter much, about the same or even less than your helmet?

I dont think anyone denies these “gains” exist. We just question whether anyone apart from those like TiRed prepared to ride arround a closed course with a power meter will really ever notice. As that review you found says, the propel isnt the one to put a smile on your face, compared to a tarmac (which is more like a tcr/defy).

Away from the golf courses and sportives, most clubruns are still populated by people riding normal frames and normal wheels.

You’re overthinking it, my “nice” road bike is still a 16 year old CAAD4. It averages exactly the same speed as the aero exottica in the group, I probably just average 1 or 2% more power. If I paid attention to reviews id be convinced that the skinny 1.1/8 steerer tube would make cornering impossible, the round downtube should make anything above walking pace a chore, the qr hubs should fall out when i brake, the threaded bb shell should flex and waste all my meagre power, the rim brakes should have killed me many wet emergency stops ago, and as for only having 20 gears!

This is an exercise in overthinking.

Now you’re overthinking my overthinking.

I don’t care deeply about aero gains, I just thought it would be fun to discuss how aero you can get for £1000 and what components (dont’) matter. That said I wouldn’t mind making my (winter) rides more fun and a bit less sluggish by cutting through the wind more efficiently. And yes I think you could notice a 100 w difference at 40 kph (if you sum up all the gains you could get on this budget), for me going from my bike more like 150w..

So it seems you can get to within maybe 95% of a pro TT bike setup for £1000 if you get a planet X aero disc road bike + 88 mm rear and 50 mm front chinese carbon wheels + clip on tt bars (if they fit) + cheap skin suit and aero helmet – not saying I’ll rock all of that, but to me it’s inneressstin.

I’d love a CAAD4, but I want disc brakes for carbon rim braking in the wet and because they’re better IMO. If not for that I’m sure you could have gotten a super aero setup for less than £500.

I don’t care deeply about aero gains

Fine, just get a road bike you most like the look of then. I don’t think the difference between a standard road bike and a slightly more aero bike will be anywhere near enough difference to make it more fun and less sluggish.

what kind of gains did you see vs the Defy?

It was about 15 seconds per lap at 200 Watts (2:40 per lap), which corresponds to a saving of about 10-15 watts. With same carbon wheels, same kit, flat course, five circuit replicates each. A skinsuit provides a bigger saving. I tested after circuit races using an Assioma Power Meter (I tested a lot of other stuff too!).

For £1000, the most aero you can get is with a cheap skinsuit (£120), low position (free), some oversocks (£30) and a decent helmet like a Giro air attack (£150). Bike matters little compared with the above. Even the wheels 😉 . Remove the bottle cages too. Hiding the cables makes you feel fast but is not measurable.

like TiRed prepared to ride arround a closed course with a power meter will really ever notice

On the road I don’t really notice, but in a race, I notice at the end that I am a (little) less fatigued for the same speed. It’s not huge. The Propel has recorded my fastest solo 100 km (over 20 mph) training circuit. I’ve not gone under three hours on another bike. Oh I was fit then 😀

Oh and if I didn’t have a Defy and a Propel, or had to go to just one bike, I’d buy a TCR. The Defy was my best bike, I had an alloy TCR for racing, and upgraded the frame to Propel when I became a third cat. This was written off in a crash, so I replaced it (and repaired the old one).

For one do it all bike, I’d go for a TCR. Other aero gains are money better spent.

My fastest solo time’s have been on a non aero bike. Similar to TiRed, I have a 75 mile loop I use for training on. It’s rolling hills rather than anything steep, little traffic. I’ve got an Aeroad with 65mm wheels, but my fastest bike I would say is my old Emonda Slr. That was a great bike, very light, nice and low was the H1 fit (Trek call it the “pro fit”). Also had a nice set of Uber light 40mm wheels. Technically the Emonda is as aero as a brick, but that bike just glided, no idea how, but it was awesome…..I still miss it and sold it a good while ago!
I do love the propel, when riding alongside it the wheels make a great noise. When I was racing there was a lot of bling about, from Madone’s, S5’s, Venge’s but also lots of CAAD’s, TCRs and Allez’s.
In the Classifieds there’s a Bowman, if I was in the market for a new race bike I’d be all over that. Put some deep carbon rims on and it’s a great fast bike.
There’s also a GCN video where they test out an Aeroad vs an alu endurace, Super Bike vs Medium bike or something like that. Very interesting how close the performance is.

I don’t think the difference between a standard road bike and a slightly more aero bike will be anywhere near enough difference to make it more fun and less sluggish.

For sure, nobody has said aero frames save a lot or are noticeable on their own, but if you can fit one you like into your £1000 budget without it making you compromise on wheels might as well get one (if available used and that’s a big if). I’d be perfectly happy with a CAAD 10 disc.

@Tired Thanks for sharing, quite significant then the Propel vs the defy, but was your position on the bike the same? 10-15w seems a lot at 200w.

For £1000, the most aero you can get is with a cheap skinsuit (£120), low position (free), some oversocks (£30) and a decent helmet like a Giro air attack (£150). Bike matters little compared with the above. Even the wheels 😉 . Remove the bottle cages too. Hiding the cables makes you feel fast but is not measurable.

Definitely, but wheels matter maybe 20-40w at 40 kph so similar to a skin suit plus aero helmet (disregarding position)?

This would be a lot easier if I didn’t want disc brakes..btw need an approx 59-61 cm frame..

Don’t forget the Watt savings from an aero handlebar and having your GPS computer mounted out front on the same plane as your stem too. 😉

The problem with a lot of the clothing gains is they’re wiped out on a miserable blowy wet day when you’ve got all your thermals and waterproofs on.

Plus you don’t get pockets on skinsuits* so as a practical machine it makes it a bit limited.

*maybe some exist with them, but basically you need to think where you’ll put keys, cards and cash if you’re actually going anywhere – and you’ll have to be sure you’re not going to get any showers or stuff a waterroof inside the back or something. And obviously a lock waiting at the end of the ride is the way to go for the commute.

FWIW, I went from an annoyingly flappy club top and shorts to a skinsuit on the velodrome, and whether it was the accompanying extra fitness from being a few weeks into the season, the skinsuit, or just knowing I had less flappy clothes on so should be faster, I felt a lot more capable, able to get past the bunch much more easily and hang off the front a bit more (well, with some help from other riders anyway).

Also I really sit on the fence as to whether this is worthwhile. A low stem would be your first port of call for more speed, but can your back and neck take it? Will it just be more hassle than it’s worth day in day out?

This is why I have a (non aero but still much faster than the commuter as the stem is low) road bike, for the dry days when I don’t need lights and feel like accepting the position and going for it. It sits in the garage from about October to April/May.

Yeah I won’t be donning a skin suit or extreme position anytime soon, just looking for practical gains. A fairly tight jacket and tights are however fine, so is getting on the hoods if you want to go fast or perhaps on mini tt bars.

Tempting.

60cm , its a gate mate , unless you are 190cm then crack on

193.5 cm 🙂 🙁

A low stem would be your first port of call for more speed,

No a well fitted position would be first port of call for more speed

The cycle paths in Berlin must be something else if you can regularly ride along at 40km/h for any distance on your daily commute.

On the Cambridge Guided Busway, which is probably the best cycle path…in the world, my morning commute speed is limited by all the other cyclists pootling about.

It’s a different story at the weekend, or late at night with a monster tailwind, but even then it’s not a race track.

But what do I know?

oldnpastit

On the Cambridge Guided Busway,

It’s a different story at the weekend, or late at night with a monster tailwind,

Fake News. Cambridge Guided Busway was designed with a constant headwind…. 🙂

The cycle paths in Berlin must be something else if you can regularly ride along at 40km/h for any distance on your daily commute.

Berlin isn’t that densely populated, and it really depends where you live and when you ride, I don’t commute or ride that often during rush hours. Then if you’re fast enough you can also share the road. It’s not like Copenhagen where the (very lovely) bike paths are nearly always busy and 40% of the population ride to work.

£1100 for a new BMC teammachine..