How much speed can you buy for £1000 (used)? Planet X, CAAD, Giant TCR..

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  • How much speed can you buy for £1000 (used)? Planet X, CAAD, Giant TCR..
  • kerley
    Member

    would 300 grams make a significant difference accelerating?

    If the 300g was all in the rim it would be noticeable but definitely not in the significant difference category when it comes to any time/speed differences. To me, the feeling better is key rather than any scientific differences so if I was continually accelerating and decelerating they would matter to me.

    yohandsome
    Member

    Gotcha, here’re the contenders so far that could possibly be found for less than €1000 used giving me enough spare change to get cheap/used carbon aero wheels selling the old ones.

    BMC Roadmachine RM03 Disc 105 €1459
    BMC Teammachine ALR Disc 105 €1799 (aero?)

    Cannondale CAAD10 disc 105 €800-900 used only (BB30 creak)
    Cannondale CAAD12 disc 105 €1599 (BB30 creak)
    Cannondale CAAD13 disc 105 €2099 (aero, fender mounts, BB30 creak)

    Giant Propel Advanced 2 Disc 105 €1899 (aero)
    Giant TCR Advanced 2 Disc 105 €1399 (defy same price)
    Giant Contend SL 2 Disc Tiagra €999

    Planet X Pro Carbon Evo Disc Rival 22 €1050
    Planet X EC-130E Disc Rival 22 €1150 (aero)

    mashr
    Member

    Giant TCR Advanced 2 Disc 105 €1399 (defy same price)

    Not aero. The downtube is a brick

    yohandsome
    Member

    Right, I only put aero next to ones that are.

    Premier Icon slowoldman
    Subscriber

    Plus speed makes cardio more fun.

    You can get the same cardio effect at lower speed on a less aero bike.

    mashr
    Member

    yohandsome

    Member

    Right, I only put aero next to ones that are.

    I thought the bike had to be aero? Or is it now just that the bike has to be a bike?

    philjunior
    Member

    I know you said not to mention clothing, but a 50mm rim isn’t really that aero, and in crosswinds anything that is could start to get more interesting than a standard rim.

    Skinsuit isn’t practical all the time obviously, and I get you re recumbernts and tribars which also come with downsides, but an aero helmet makes about as much difference or more than wheels, at a far lower cost, and has few disadvantages (except perhaps in summer when you’ll be fine as long as not climbing). Plus you won’t destroy it over potholes and you can open your frame choice up by running rim brakes on alloy.

    TBH, I wouldn’t obsess too much anyway if you’re actually going to take it out in the wet everything will end up a slow grindy mess anyway. And putting pricey rims on you will worry about them getting stolen, need to take at least one extra lock and you’ll be making the whole bike look more nickable. Faster tyres are pretty cost effective and don’t make the bike look any more flash.

    yohandsome
    Member

    @mashr whatever gets you most aero for under £1000, might not be able to hit that budget with an aero bike as they’re more expensive plus aero wheels are more important, but yes, ideally an aero frame.

    @slowoldman I could get the same cardio effect on a beach cruiser, would it be fun? Not in my opinion.

    @philjunior yep getting an aero helmet eventually, and GP5000 tires probably, maybe some tighter clothing too. Not getting pricey rims in any case with this budget, max £300 for the set.

    I wouldn’t obsess too much anyway if you’re actually going to take it out in the wet everything will end up a slow grindy mess anyway

    This is one of reasons I’d like a faster setup besides getting from A to B quicker, to counteract some of the grind and make winter road biking more fun.

    Premier Icon thisisnotaspoon
    Subscriber

    Philjunior talks sense.

    You’re obsessing over the bits that make the least difference for the most cost, and biggest tradeoffs for practicality. Even if the wheels are “only” £300, that’s £290 more than an aero helemet from planet-x, and less benefit. Heck, at 90kg, even if that’s completely lean your shoulders have more excess drag than any wheelset. TT riders might not be quite built as small as climbers like Pantani, but they still have the upper bodies of 12 yr old’s.

    A CAAD13 with deep rims looks really nice in the flesh, as do most aero bikes (I would dispute the Planet-X’s aero credentials, anything with a sloping top tube isn’t “aero”).

    And as Slowoldman says, watts are watts, a 20minute FTP session at 13mph on a fat bike is exactly the same as a 20minute FTP session at 20mph on a TT bike.

    And as everyone says, deep rims aren’t easy to live with. They feel slow to accelerate, they get knocked about by the wind, they cost a lot, they aren’t built to survive being ridden over sunken manhole covers, clumsily hoped up curbs and the everyday bump and grind of riding in traffic.

    I’d go back to the kernel of your original criteria, a fun to ride commuter bike, get the last version of the Langster (because it looks nicer) and some nice hand built rims that will survive daily life i.e. anything from Open Pro’s and heavier (i.e, tougher) and with 32 spokes. And fit a nice spinny gear to work on your cadence, it’ll have a bigger positive impact on your speed than plodding on a big gear however aero your wheels are. It’ll be way more fun to ride around town than most of what you’ve come up with so far, and be marginally less attractive to thieves.

    philjunior
    Member

    Re tyres, if I were to put something that I’d dare leave out, it would be a good set of road (non aero al) tubeless rims and tyres. Got to get proper ones or they’ll pop off the rim, which will be messy, but this will look subtle and be genuinely fast (OK not as fast as aero plus tubeless but that’s not in budget.)

    2 reasons I’ve not done this on the commuter are a small amount cost and a large amount I’m not convinced anything will seal at the sort of pressures you need to run on a 23-25 (or even 28) section tyre.

    I have been thinking of putting tubeless on the commuter, but it would be with a 38mm or so tyre running much lower pressures than I currently do (based on my MTB tubeless tyres being light with buckets of speed even at 20-30psi, I reckon 40-60psi would be fine and much more comfy and versatile). My aims would be a bit different to yours though, I’ve tried making the commuter faster but with wind, rain, leaves and general shyte on the road, winter riding isn’t really fun. Sometimes nice, but very rarely fun. A bit of off road ability might change that (I have taken the 28c GP4000s off road taking the long way home, they cope OK with care, but they’re a bit mediocre on wet grass at 90psi 🙂 )

    yohandsome
    Member

    You’re obsessing over the bits that make the least difference for the most cost, and biggest tradeoffs for practicality.

    One thing at the time, first obsess over the bike and more importantly the wheels, then obsess over the other stuff like clothing – stay tuned.

    A CAAD13 with deep rims looks really nice in the flesh, as do most aero bikes (I would dispute the Planet-X’s aero credentials, anything with a sloping top tube isn’t “aero”).

    Their disc wheel came second place in Hambini’s aero wheel test, maybe you shouldn’t be so quick to discredit them? https://www.hambini.com/testing-to-find-the-fastest-bicycle-wheels/ – regardless, frame doesn’t make a huge difference – open to non aero frames.

    And as everyone says, deep rims aren’t easy to live with. They feel slow to accelerate, they get knocked about by the wind, they cost a lot, they aren’t built to survive being ridden over sunken manhole covers, clumsily hoped up curbs and the everyday bump and grind of riding in traffic.

    Everyone doesn’t say this, 300 grams higher rotating mass doesn’t make them slow to accelerate, they cost from $250 up, 50 mm front is more than manageable in the wind esp when you’re 90 kg, I take offense at being implicated as a clumsy curb hopper, sunken manhole covers and potholes – where the heck do ya’ll live? And I don’t buy your claim that a carbon wheelsets won’t survive being ridden around in traffic, especially when used with disc brakes, worst obstacle here are cobblestones.

    Do carbon wheelsets disintegrate being used around town in traffic all year?

    Might convert to SS later on, but it will be slower than a geared bike.

    @philjunior hmm tubeless on a road bike won’t you have to pump up the tires for every other ride? Not so practical. Definitely makes sense with larger tires, considered it myself with my 38c ones.

    kerley
    Member

    sunken manhole covers and potholes – where the heck do ya’ll live?

    Most live in the UK I would guess as it is primarily a UK website. The roads in the UK are awful and in fact I find it more comfortable riding on gravel roads where I live than the tarmac roads.

    As for tubeless, if you are pumping the tyres up every other ride, or indeed any more than you would with tubes, then you have a badly setup tubeless tyre.

    kcr
    Member

    One thing at the time, first obsess over the bike and more importantly the wheels, then obsess over the other stuff like clothing – stay tuned.

    I thought you wanted speed? It sounds like what you really want is a fancy looking bike that you perceive as fast.

    If you really want to be fast, listen to what people are telling you. First get an aero position and don’t wear baggy, flappy clothing. Tri bars would be the next big improvement, but I wouldn’t advise using those for urban riding.
    Aero frames and fancy wheels are marginal improvements when you’ve already addressed the big stuff.

    TiRed
    Member

    Just to cheer you up, fixed gives you a better cardio workout than gears. Personally, I’d avoid Cannondale with a BB30. We have a CAAD8 as well. It has always creaked.

    60 cm Dolan FXE or pre cursa. Mavic Elipse wheels.

    philjunior
    Member

    hmm tubeless on a road bike won’t you have to pump up the tires for every other ride? Not so practical. Definitely makes sense with larger tires, considered it myself with my 38c ones

    Not sure, I recall my uncle used to run latex tubes (Which offer faster rolling than butyl) but found the constant reinflating a bit of a faff. Some TL tyres I find end up holding air really well, others not so much. Check the MTB tyres every ride anyway, but this would be a bit of a deal breaker on a commuter, I agree.

    Premier Icon thisisnotaspoon
    Subscriber

    One thing at the time, first obsess over the bike and more importantly the wheels, then obsess over the other stuff like clothing – stay tuned.

    If you want to go fast, obsess over the engine, not the bike. One of the great things about cycling is that in spite of what the marketing machine tells you a £300 Carrera from Halfords is close enough in performance to a £6000 superbike that really doesn’t matter.

    Their disc wheel came second place in Hambini’s aero wheel test, maybe you shouldn’t be so quick to discredit them?

    Disc wheel =/= frame.

    I like Planet-X, I’ve got 3 of their bikes at the moment. But they have a copy of the big Taiwanese bike part catalog, not a wind tunnel.

    sunken manhole covers and potholes – where the heck do ya’ll live?

    They’ll be even more surprising when you’re on TT bars.

    Premier Icon w00dster
    Subscriber

    Maybe misreading Hambini’ table, isn’t he saying Disc Rear and 80mm front? The Yoeleo Disc rear and 88mm front is the leading contender, but the Yoeleo 88mm front and back is slightly further back in that table.
    I’d expect any disc rear to be faster.
    I’ve got the Reynolds 65mm deep aero wheels on my Aeroad, previously (many moons ago) had the Planet X 50mm tubulars, the Planet X where actually pretty good, these were on an old Caad, looked awesome and was great to ride. Most days I’m fine with the depth of the 65mm rims, but if the wind does get up too much then I tend to take my 40mm Vision Metrons. It was blowing over 20mph yesterday and my 40mm rims where fine, I’d say that anything under 20mph is fine for my 65s.
    My 65mm wheels also sprint fine, “spinning up to speed” is actually pretty much instant, the limitation is more on my ability to go from 200 to 800 watts, there is no delay as a result of the wheel or the rim weight. I also have very light shallow aluminium rims and honestly there doesn’t feel a lag when sprinting on. My deeper rims compared to the light ones.
    My Vision Metrons are on my winter bike, Carbon, not particularly light or aero (being only 40mm deep). I enjoy riding my 7kg aero bike as much as I enjoy riding my 9kg winter bike. Neither seems slow. With regards to my winter bike, riding this around town, it wouldn’t in anyway be the bike that slowed me down. I don’t think there would be much difference between either my Aeroad or my Domane on a town ride. The Aeroad comes into its own when I’m putting a lot of power down over a nice distance, but it is definitely affected by road imperfections. The domane has 28mm tyres at a lower pressure so soaks up the road deflections better. Overall the Aeroad is a faster bike, but it’s not hugely different.
    Shame you’re not based near me so you could ride both back to back, you’d be surprised at how similar they are in terms of speed and effort.
    Lastly just to add, I’m not kind to rims, I bunny hop just because it’s fun, pretty much every hole or grid I tend to bunny hop, I raced road, CX and gravel on carbon wheels and have never once damaged a rim.
    Definitely think you’re overthinking this, buy a cool looking frame you like the look of, I love Caad’s personally, yes some do creak, but they look awesome. But a good Caad, slammed stem and deep wheels will look awesome and be fast.

    yohandsome
    Member

    @thisisnotaspoon

    If you want to go fast, obsess over the engine, not the bike.

    Who said I’m not? I also have an echo bike on my order list which was an easy choice. Work on my engine daily.

    I like Planet-X, I’ve got 3 of their bikes at the moment. But they have a copy of the big Taiwanese bike part catalog, not a wind tunnel.

    No brand AFAIK has their own windtunnel, they have however done some windtunnel testing and could plausibly pick frames “from the catalog” that perform https://www.planetx.co.uk/news/products/q/date/2016/06/15/thirty-per-cent-faster-we-go-wind-tunnel-testing

    “The EC-130E saved 8 Watts when compared to the RT-80 (at 47 km/h, normal roadbike frame) and the Exocet Time Trial bike saved a significant 24 watts when compared to the EC-130E (ok maybe the EC-130 isn’t that good or the rider positions were different). This final comparison really outlined the importance of aerodynamics when racing Time Trials and attempting to beat the clock.”

    They’ll be even more surprising when you’re on TT bars.

    Yeah TT bars might be one step too far here, but since I have them I might end up trying them, a full TT handlebar setup would however be too faffy and impractical.

    @w00dster

    The Aeroad comes into its own when I’m putting a lot of power down over a nice distance, but it is definitely affected by road imperfections. The domane has 28mm tyres at a lower pressure so soaks up the road deflections better. Overall the Aeroad is a faster bike, but it’s not hugely different.
    Shame you’re not based near me so you could ride both back to back, you’d be surprised at how similar they are in terms of speed and effort.

    Thanks for the offer, that would have been swell. I’m not saying that aero road frames are much faster, but anything will be much faster than my current mountain bike frame and 40C 650b tires plus huge alu fenders. A nice looking frame is a bonus, but not a must (think the CAADs and Propels are real nice, but the PLanet X frames not too bad either).

    Maybe it’s more procrastination than overthinking at this point, at least I’ll get a shortlist of bikes to go and try. It’s a bit interesting to see how much aero you can get for cheap though, seems like you can get to 90% of a 10k aero bike’s performance for 1k buying used.

    Premier Icon thisisnotaspoon
    Subscriber

    No brand AFAIK has their own windtunnel

    Off the top of my head, Specialized do, as do Boardman.

    There’s a lot more to a wind tunnel than just generating numbers for the marketing brochure. Their real value is in validating a CFD model, the better your model, the better the frame you can design in it, then the better the numbers in the marketing spiel look when you invite journalists to see your wind tunnel. You don’t just stick a number of frames in there and pick the lowest drag.

    I don’t dispute that an aerodynamic bike will be faster than an un-aerodynamic one.

    Just that there’s a lot more to making a bike fast and/or fun. There’s good reasons why most people would tend towards bikes like Specialized Tarmac’s, over a Venge, or a Scott Addict over a Foil. Yes they’re 30s slower over an hour at 40km/h or whatever the brochure says, but do you want to be 30s faster over an hour, or actually ride for an hour for fun as they’re nice and stiff in the corners yet lighter weight without numb hands or losing fillings (sometimes outdated stereotype of aero bikes being incredibly harsh yet floppy due to the tall tube profiles). Which is more important, the hours riding or the seconds saved?

    yohandsome
    Member

    Hambini digs into the flaws of most current wind tunnel testing in his wheel test article btw, also to reiterate, Planet X only found a 8 watt benefit of their aero road frame so not much reason to doubt that unimpressive number. And as I’ve said before, I’m not obsessing about finding the most aero frame to squeeze out some marginal gains, but if I could find one on my budget why not.

    What’s fun to people differ, I like to sprint, I like to go fast, I don’t like long rides. Comfort is important too up to a point, seems like modern aero bikes are comfortable enough. Time to go test some bikes!

    crikey
    Member

    I like to sprint, I like to go fast,

    Only you’re not actually sprinting and you’re not actually going that fast.

    Just get a red one.

    yohandsome
    Member

    @crikey playing the bitter ex-racer keyboard warrior? Cute. Since you can’t go fast anymore I guess nobody else can, and fast is of course relative to pro cyclists?..

    Just stop commenting. I know it’s hard for you, but it’s better for everyone.

    shedbrewed
    Member

    Caad12 owner here. It hasn’t creaked since I’ve had it. It has won two circuit races. It’s also been shelled out the back of many more. It wasn’t the bike making the difference then.

    crikey
    Member

    Lol.
    Sorry, I’ll not say another thing, i apologise for triggering any anxieties…

    😉

    trail_rat
    Member

    Well this has answered a long standing question for me

    Who’s that odd chap commuting on full aero bike and gear. *

    * There was a period I would meet a guy riding a TT bike to the office on a regular basis -not just on. Evening league days but most days in summer.

    TiRed
    Member

    Yes they’re 30s slower over an hour at 40km/h or whatever the brochure says

    Only on your own, not in a bunch race. And come sprint time, stiffness might be more important. (If only I had a sprint 🙂 )

    As for the Hambini article, well h emay know his testing procedures, but he doesn’t know statistics of experimental design. In essence his data shows that deeper is better, but the within class variability is bigger than any two wheels in a class, so it is not possible to compare within the depth class. The most aero will be 80 mm on the front and a disc on the back. Whether you can handle 80 mm on a windy day, on the tri bars, is a moot point (there are plenty of deeper front wheels on the timetrialling forum used – far fewer 60 mm)

    A trispoke is a good compromised – faster than a 60 mm and a little more stable than an 80 mm. I run three on the trike – which has its own stability issues. Get a wider one, my Hed3’s can only take 20 mm tyres for proper aeroness.

    Commuting on a TT is no bad thing – time spent in position helps with aclimatising to power loss due to hip angle. If you are too extreme you will lose power initially and may get some of it back as you practice. Personally, I just use a more forward and slightly higher position. But I do train on the fixed TT bike for position. Then I ride 12 hrs.

    yohandsome
    Member

    I’ve tried TT position commuting, not for me, but indeed smart if you’re training for a TT race or whatnot. Long term I’d worry about the increased lumbar spine lordosis https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4738870/

    Tri spoke disc brake wheels are hard to find and expensive, the only aero wheelset I can get on this budget is up to 88 mm deep section carbon rims (50 mm front 88 mm rear or thereabout).

    Hol up, there are aero trikes?

    mashr
    Member

    There was a period I would meet a guy riding a TT bike to the office on a regular basis -not just on. Evening league days but most days in summer.

    I know a lad that commuted like that. He was Welsh TT champion and holds the MOD Hour record. It worked for him

    Premier Icon convert
    Subscriber

    This is one of those Mars/Venus threads – when one section of society has not one clue what motivates the other. Or the OP is either a child or a windup merchant. Entertaining regardless.

    Premier Icon cynic-al
    Subscriber

    It worked for him

    His bike got him to work, yes.

    I would avoid the BB30 CAAD10/12 – nice bikes but they creak in the end. Used TCR would be my choice.

    nonsense, over 6000 miles on my caad 10 totally noise free, i changed the bearings once as they were gritty, and it was no problem at all

    Premier Icon thisisnotaspoon
    Subscriber

    Ive got a caadx that also doesnt creak, on at least its 2nd bb (it was a new BB when I bought it).

    There’s no reason for a BB30 to creak if done propperly, its one less interface than a threaded BB. Particualrly on an aluminium frame where the races are machined directly into the frame.

    PF30 on the other hand, or frames with cups glued/pressed into the frame…..

    My other road bike ceaks more, and thats threaded!

    TiRed
    Member

    If you want fast and trike, get a sinner mango. And no, unlike all the other options, I don’t actually own one 😀 . My recumbent trike is an unfaired Catrike Voyager, reasonably upright and relatively light (14 kg). It’s not fast, but it is faster than an electric assist.

    nonsense, over 6000 miles on my caad 10 totally noise free

    Do you live in Arizona? 😉 My CAAD8 has had two BB’s already and it still creaks. I’ll swap it for a threaded praxis when Son1 gets back into riding it properly

    yohandsome
    Member

    This is one of those Mars/Venus threads – when one section of society has not one clue what motivates the other. Or the OP is either a child or a windup merchant. Entertaining regardless.

    Singletrackworld

    1/3 Criticism that whatever you’re asking for isn’t the optimal utilitarian tool for an imagined but incorrect use case.

    1/3 Answers to what you asked for.

    1/3 Sarcasm.

    yohandsome
    Member

    @tired I’m looking forward to my future aero trike for commuting thread, so, how fast can you get on the flat with those? XD

    kerley
    Member

    If you want fast and trike, get a sinner mango

    I don’t think that get’s within the £1,000 budget 🙂

    In fact not much does so just get a road bike for £1,000 that you most like the look of and ride it as fast as you can. At that price liking how it looks is about as important as all the other factors and any modern road bike will be faster than an MTB with mudguards.

    Do you live in Arizona? 😉 My CAAD8 has had two BB’s already and it still creaks. I’ll swap it for a threaded praxis when Son1 gets back into riding it properly

    nope, the arid desert that is west yorkshire 😉

    Premier Icon thisisnotaspoon
    Subscriber

    1/3 Criticism that whatever you’re asking for isn’t the optimal utilitarian tool for an imagined but incorrect use case.

    We’re just preempting the next thread now that you’ve convinced yourself that a track bike with pursuit gearing isn’t the optimum solution for cycle paths.

    yohandsome
    Member

    I’ve ordered some tights an an aero helmet..Btw aero doesn’t need to be uncomfortable or much less versatile it seems:

    “The Propel is very comfortable. It puts all those comments that aero bikes are really poor rides to bed completely. It’s handling is secure and conservative. Not snappy, not razor sharp (compared to something like a Spesh Tarmac) but really smooth and stiff enough around BB that for sprinting and out of the saddle climbing it felt very light and efficient.

    So if you were looking for an allround bike that can do commutes, weekend warrior, group rides and sportives – take the Giant. If you want to step up in competion either via racing with others, or Strava bashing on your own then the stiffer frame and livelier handling will get you there with a bigger smile onyour face.”

    Still, not easy to find one used here in Germany, and Germans like to sell used for the same price as you can get them new urgh

    TiRed
    Member

    Get the Propel. Great bike. Even comes with deep section carbon rims. I’ve ridden and raced two and they are lovely to ride. I’ve ridden it on rides over 100 miles, club rides and I even commute on it on race night. You can’t go wrong. It’s also faster than a non aero bike and I have tested This on a closed circuit with a power meter against my Defy SL (which has the largest down tube you’ve ever seen!)

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