How do you decide which crypto currency to buy?

The only definite winners are those that bought early

a key attribute of pretty much any ponzi scheme.

Ah. The haters still don’t get it:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-sets-out-plan-to-make-uk-a-global-cryptoasset-technology-hub

and lo and behold on 20th July:

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/financial-services-and-markets-bill

Crypto assets will be shortly recognised as regulated financial instruments.

I’ve never heard of a regulated Ponzi scheme before, but maybe there’s a first time for everything?

Or maybe it’s just that most people struggle with difficult concepts.

Crypto assets will be shortly recognised as regulated financial instruments.

But doesn’t government regulation undermine the very principle of decentralised finance?

And regulation of providers doesn’t mean the underlying asset is actually worth anything…..

E.g. stocks and shares are regulated but companies can still go bust and you can still loose all your money.

Or maybe it’s just that most people struggle with difficult concepts.

It would appear so…..

I’ve never heard of a regulated Ponzi scheme before, but maybe there’s a first time for everything?

Or maybe it’s just that most people struggle with difficult concepts.

Clearly. There are plenty of examples of “regulated Ponzi schemes”. Some caught and shutdown before they burst and others which managed to dodge the regulators.
Still keep speedrunning the financial markets game.

Clearly. There are plenty of examples of “regulated Ponzi schemes”.

Bernie Madoff is the obvious one which springs to mind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Madoff

To be fair, SBF openly admitted it was all a massive ponzi back in the spring

But on the other hand, he also ‘accidentally’ took $4 billion from the ‘do not gamble’ pile and ‘accidentally’ gambled with it, so maybe he is one of the people who struggle with difficult concepts

he is one of the people who struggle with difficult concepts

I never thought greed was a very difficult concept to grasp….

The haters still don’t get it:

What a fascinating comment @chevychase. People who disagree with your opinion are derogatorily called “haters” who are not smart enough to “get it”.

Playing the man like this is the type of argument that involves insulting and discrediting your opponent rather than rather than responding to the points he makes – also known as ad hominem. This is a classic response of someone who can’t engage in a meaningful discussion because their argument is weak, just like yours Chevy.

Crypto prices seem to be rebounding a bit a the moment, then again +15% rise on **** all isn’t anything to get excited about and I’m guessing it will start heading downwards again soon. My £3k investment is currently worth £900 :p

because their argument is weak

You’re being very kind…

and I’m guessing it will start heading downwards again soon.

Very hard to know, as it’s a combination of sentiment and volumes. Eg if no one ever traded again, the last traded price would be fixed for all eternity. I expect with prices currently suppressed and the wind definitely no longer in Crypto’s sails, combined with a looming recession – that volumes will be suppressed for some time – maybe some distressed selling by people who are desperate. So bobbing along on a slow downward trend for the next couple of years. But that’s just a complete guess…

I would imagine that bot-based\automated traffic outweighs individual’s trades by some margin – so despite interest perhaps weigning, it might be that measured volumes don’t change much at all

I would imagine that bot-based\automated traffic outweighs individual’s trades by some margin – so despite interest perhaps weigning, it might be that measured volumes don’t change much at all

80% of trading is bots apparently!

Had no idea…

Does suggest there must be a lot of bot vs bot trading – how on earth is that productive?

I refer the right honorable gentlemen to the two links to the UK Government Website where it can clearly be seen that YOUR government intends to make the UK a “global cryptoasset hub” – and a further link where your government is starting bringing the correct regulartory framework together to regulate such assets.

Now, I may be the dumbest person on the forum, but it seems very much to me that governments around the world don’t start to bring proper regulatory frameworks or spend a lot of time and money on debating, evolving and bringing ponzi schemes to the masses.

The UK, US, Chinese, Indian, Australian, European, nay global legislatures and governing bodies might literally all be blowing smoke up our collective asses.

But lets face it. They’re not.

So, to be very clear: You’re wrong, you don’t grasp the concepts and your own words prove it:

@footflaps

But doesn’t government regulation undermine the very principle of decentralised finance?

No. No it doesn’t. The crypto world has been crying out for proper legislation for a long time as they know very well that “wild west” doesn’t give people or businesses the solidity or security we all need.

Now, I’m guessing people think I now need to “explain” to them how this all actually works – largely because that’s what people always say when they’re accused of not understanding something.

Again, you’re wrong. I don’t need to explain anything. Self-improvement is encumbent on oneself. And that means researching in a way that illuminates why governments are massive backers of the financial instruments of the future – rather than just cherrypicking isolated “facts” that re-affirm your own blinkered world view.

🙂

Oh. And #(deliberately)smug

@footflaps

80% of trading is bots apparently!

Of course. Like a shedload of trad. finance trading is bots (and has been since the late 80’s – the big financial institutions are deliberately setup next to international links because latency makes a big difference to how profitable their automatic trading is).

Makes perfect sense. Of course. If you’re running digital assets why would you need people to carry out trades to a ruleset?

It’s kind of the point.

Had no idea…

This much, at least, is obvious…

80% of trading is bots apparently!

It goes way back… It’s generally accepted now that the price of bitcoin in 2013 was heavily manipulated in particular by bots trading on the ill fated Mt Gox exchange:

https://www.investopedia.com/news/bots-drove-bitcoins-150to1000-rise-2013-paper/

I refer the right honorable gentlemen to the two links to the UK Government Website where it can clearly be seen that YOUR government intends to make the UK a “global cryptoasset hub”

Yes, but you seem to have completely missed the understanding as to why they wish to do this.

It’s not because they think crypto is the future and will take over the world.

It’s because they see the industry is worth billions and they want their share of tax take regulating the trading bodies and the well paid software engineers writing all the code etc.

If they can persuade a trading house to move to London or list in London, that means more revenue for HMRC…

I don’t need to explain anything.

Only if you want to be taken seriously…

@footflaps, so they don’t think “crypto is the future or will take over the world”, BUT they think it’s going to be worth billions and want their tax take?

Do you not see the fundamental issue with your position there?

Switch your first proposition and it looks like this: Actually it IS the future and going to take over the world** – and they ARE going to want their tax take.

***of course, you’re all het up about crypto, but the world doesn’t have a future because of the combined existential issues of climate change and biodiversity collapse. (And yes, crypto can help with that – you could run the entire world’s financial institutions on ethereum or hedera for a tenth of the energy cost of Paypal).

Only if you want to be taken seriously…

I don’t particularly care if you get it. I only really care if I do.

What I’m not doing is taking you seriously. Because clearly you don’t get it. 🙂

Now, I may be the dumbest person on the forum, but it seems very much to me that governments around the world don’t start to bring proper regulatory frameworks or spend a lot of time and money on debating, evolving and bringing ponzi schemes to the masses.

You would be wrong. A key objective for any financial regulator is, if they find some unregulated sector being abused by fraudsters, to bring it under regulation. That way they can protect the general public and maintain confidence in the market.

Out of curiosity if it now becomes a fully regulated and managed product exactly what is the usp over traditional financial investments?

The sad thing is there are some interesting ideas behind crypto currency, smart contracts etc but its been buried underneath a pile of turds for people pushing the latest get rich scheme to idiots.

@footflaps, so they don’t think “crypto is the future or will take over the world”, BUT they think it’s going to be worth billions and want their tax take?

Do you not see the fundamental issue with your position there?

Not really.

Governments love finding new revenue streams which avoid having to raise the main tax rates eg insurance premium tax, air travel duty etc. Crypto will just be another one added to the set…

And ‘billions’ isn’t really a very big number in the world of global finance….

I refer the right honorable gentlemen to the two links to the UK Government Website where it can clearly be seen that YOUR government intends to make the UK a “global cryptoasset hub”

YOUR government is also responsible for the Windrush scandal, Liz Truss, and the 200,000+ excess deaths during the Covid pandemic.

It’s a very poor bar for defining what’s a good decision 🤣

YOUR government is also responsible for the Windrush scandal, Liz Truss, and the 200,000+ excess deaths during the Covid pandemic.

Wait till you get onto financial miss-selling….

PPI miss selling – total cost £53 billion and still rising I think

Interest rate swaps anyone….

Miss sold mini-bonds…

They were all supposedly regulated as well….

@footflaps
And ‘billions’ isn’t really a very big number in the world of global finance….
We’re already in the trillion territory for a nascent tech portfolio that has niche adoption and could potentially not only replace “money” but be the underlying tech for the global economy – for anything that needs a “source of truth” or ledger. So “meh” to that.

@thisisnotaspoon:

it’s a very poor bar for defining what’s a good decision

Every government everywhere? Please explicitly define your bar – so we can all see how high you expect the crypto asset world to jump? 🙂

As for footflaps bringing up PPI mis-selling. Literally every word out of your mouth screams “I don’t get it”. It’s like talking to an anti-vaxxer about why they should get vaccinated.

It’s like talking to an anti-vaxxer about why they should get vaccinated.

So why should someone buy crypto?

I’m pretty sure it doesn’t prime the immune system against a potentially fatal disease, but I could be wrong…

As for footflaps bringing up PPI mis-selling

Can’t recall who it was, but someone was using proposed regulation of crypto as justification that it was a good thing. I think they said something like…..

Now, I may be the dumbest person on the forum, but it seems very much to me that governments around the world don’t start to bring proper regulatory frameworks or spend a lot of time and money on debating, evolving and bringing ponzi schemes to the masses.

and then several people pointed to a load of scenarios showing the above assertion to be false. Well the latter part of that quote anyway 😉

Every government everywhere? Please explicitly define your bar – so we can all see how high you expect the crypto asset world to jump?

They can jump in the sea.

It’s the grossest extreme of end stage capitalism when a tiny minority spend exorbitant amounts buying up a few kB’s of data 🤷‍♀️

We’re already in the trillion territory for a nascent tech portfolio that has niche adoption and could potentially not only replace “money” but be the underlying tech for the global economy

And here we run into the basic problem with cryptocurrency. What is it supposed to be and why?
If its money then I want it to be reliable and not move much. Best efforts of the tories and Putin aside I can be mostly confident that my takehome pay will buy a pint tonight for roughly the same as last month. I dont expect to walk in and be told yeah sorry its 300 pound instead.
Its part of why Steam dropped bitcoin as an option. It was way to volatile to be usable (plus a whole bunch of fraudulent transactions)
This conflicts with option 2 which is the speculative traders who do want to see a growth, preferably large, in their investment. What is good for them makes it bad as a currency.

As for underlying tech what exactly do you mean? The smart contracts and “code is law” runs into the obvious problem of 710 KLOC rule.

but be the underlying tech for the global economy – for anything that needs a “source of truth” or ledger.

There’s nothing wrong with the databases we’ve been using for the last 50+ years to do this. Pretty much all global finance relies on them, they work, have been shown to work well and no one is really that bothered about them.

They *could* all be replaced by crypto based ledgers but given that’s a huge amount of cost, risk and time, why would anyone actually want to do it? What problem would it solve?

And even if they did, it would have squat diddly to do with the price of bitcoin etc…

This is hilarious, on one thread he’s berating everyone for allowing the world and our children to die through climate change and on this one he’s still the biggest crypto evangelist despite the amount of pollution it contributes to.

Absolute, side splittingly hilarious hypocrisy. As long as you get to make a quick buck eh?

@footflaps:

So why should someone buy crypto?

I’m not saying you should? I’m not saying anyone should.

I’m saying it’s a potentially transformative technology with myriad benefits, not some sh1tty ponzi scheme.

There’s nothing wrong with the databases we’ve been using for the last 50+ years to do this

Yes there is. Plenty. Can tell you don’t understand tech.
In fact, I was preparing a reply to the rest of your post, but the antivaxxer thing applies tbh – it’s going to be just too damn hard and absolutely pointless.

Not trying to insult you – but we’re here:

I’m saying it’s a potentially transformative technology with myriad benefits, not some sh1tty ponzi scheme.

And yet it has been used repeatedly for ponzi schemes.
You are repeatedly confusing the technology with the implementation.
If, as a technology, it is going to need the regulation what is the gain over the existing system? It loses the decentralised aspect and becomes another speculative instrument with some heavy limitations.

Yes there is. Plenty. Can tell you don’t understand tech.

I am curious as to how.
You seem to be long on bluster but short on actual constructive argument.

Yes there is. Plenty. Can tell you don’t understand tech.

there isn’t really. The only potential “issue” that a distributed ledger solves is moving the ownership of the ledger from a central organisation/bank to the general masses/the internet. That solves problems in some narrow markets (ie : where 2 strangers want to pay each other securely for some goods or service without the transaction being observable by authorities) – and those markets are already heavily using crypto.

The ledgers we use for our financial systems are large, scale well, replicate extremely accurately and handle huge load. They aren’t free to run, but the cost to end users are so small as to be insignificant.

source : I’m a principle engineer who’s been building ledgers and other techology for a multinational, bluechip financial institution for 20 years.

@dissonance:

If, as a technology, it is going to need the regulation what is the gain over the existing system? It loses the decentralised aspect and becomes another speculative instrument with some heavy limitations.

No it doesn’t. Understanding fail.

Now this is more like it:

@5lab

The only potential “issue” that a distributed ledger solves is moving the ownership of the ledger from a central organisation/bank to the general masses/the internet. That solves problems in some narrow markets (ie : where 2 strangers want to pay each other securely for some goods or service without the transaction being observable by authorities) – and those markets are already heavily using crypto.

The ledgers we use for our financial systems are large, scale well, replicate extremely accurately and handle huge load. They aren’t free to run, but the cost to end users are so small as to be insignificant.

source : I’m a principle engineer who’s been building ledgers and other techology for a multinational, bluechip financial institution for 20 years.

Nice to be a techie. But your first sentence is incorrect. There are plenty of issues that this system solves. Your hefty wedge salary is worth less this year because of rampant inflation due largely to the gvt. printing money and giving it to rich people via the large financial institutions that we (both) work for.

The very concept was invented on the back of the 2008 financial crash, caused by the mismanagement of money by our said (still) corrupt financial institutions.

For a start – ask your money-laundering financial institution to show the world it’s ledger. You’ll get a quite trite answer won’t you.

Our industry is bent, opaque, profiteering. It can be massively improved and this tech can help do that by design.

As for huge/scaling well/aren’t cheap to run – they’re inefficient, energy hungry, require millions of people to run them, are hugely fragmented and they’re ripe for replacement by more efficient, distributed, secure and transparent systems that can’t be subverted by bad actors (be that governments or whomever).

Yes, money can be used by criminals, no matter what form it takes. But our current monetary system IS criminal.

No it doesn’t. Understanding fail.

Your arrogance really is stunning

For a start – ask your money-laundering financial institution to show the world it’s ledger.

Yeah best to rely on Celsius, Voyager and FTX eh? That you come out with this drivel after cryptocurrency after cryptocurrency implodes is quite stunning.

Our industry is bent, opaque, profiteering. It can be massively improved and this tech can help do that by design.

And yet it is failing to do so. The crypto markets make the normal markets seem sane and well controlled.

You come across as someone who doesnt really understand technology and so puts it on a pedestal thinking the right design can solve all problems.
It cant. Its just a tool which can be utilised in various ways but is ultimately reliant on how it is built into the rest of society. Ultimately the crypto part of the product needs to interact with the real world and hence thats where you need the shared enforcement mechanism.

Nice to be a techie. But your first sentence is incorrect. There are plenty of issues that this system solves. Your hefty wedge salary is worth less this year because of rampant inflation due largely to the gvt. printing money and giving it to rich people via the large financial institutions that we (both) work for.

As opposed to bitcoin, that gives money to the insititutions burning megawatts to process transactions inefficiently.

Or ethereum, giving money to … Etc etc.

The bitcoin inflation rate, over the last 12months is about 350%.

I’m intrigued as on another thread you’re all over slamming people for not doing everything possible (stay at home, don’t use cars, don’t have kids) as ‘easy to achieve’ ways to prevent climate change

But here you are pushing various crypto’s that you know full well involve energy intensive mining activities with no useful benefit beyond fattening your wallet. I know how that looks to me…

Yes there is. Plenty. Can tell you don’t understand tech.

source : I’m a principle engineer who’s been building ledgers and other techology for a multinational, bluechip financial institution for 20 years.

ooof

@martinhutch:

ooof

No, not really. Amongst other things I govern teams of principle architects at a multinational bank – and we know that crypto is transformative, and much much much less resource-demanding. That means not just people, but hardware and – very importantly – energy.

The people above who keep pushing bitcoin = crypto are cherry-picking to suit their argument don’t have a clue (and have had that argument refuted, with evidence (that they ignored) in this thread already).

Crypto has the potential to trash much of the city – but not just “the city” – all “cities” across the globe. Cut out so much waste, energy, human and environmental capital – and do it transparently.

Anyway, I’m off to attend the monthly governance meeting for “net-zero” for my particular flavour of financial institution. They’re greenwashing, of course, but they’re still ahead of most others.

Toodleoo.

I govern teams of principle architects at a multinational bank

Well you should have said how important you were before. I bet all those people who’ve put forward different views to your own are feeling pretty foolish now.

I am curious how they balance their apparent hatred of the current financial system with their job role.
Seems a bit like a pacifist working for BAe or a vegan at Bernard Matthews.