Hive mind question – Road accident involving a motorbike

My colleague was crossing between two lanes stationary cars in central london and got taken out quite badly (broken back, leg and all sorts of other injuries) by a fast moving motorcycle filtering between the two lanes. Any idea who would be regarded as being at fault? My colleague did look and said the bike came from nowhere, he was carried around 20 meters by the impact.

lots of case law here;

http://www.access-legal.co.uk/legal-news/accidents-involving-filtering-what-the-law-says-lu-2811.htm

this came up with a thread earlier in the week when a cyclist hit a car.

from what I’ve seen the onus is on the vehicle filterign to be careful

If he did look properly he would have seen the motorcycle.They are quite large iirc and tend not to materialize from thin air.Its no different from crossing a road with moving traffic (only you should be even more careful).
Remember next time it could be a childs face!!
Healing ‘vibes’ and all that pointless new age hippy bother.

I’m tempted to say 50/50.

Filtering’s not ilegal, but neither’s crossing the road.

My colleague did look and said the bike came from nowhere

Well it didn’t, it came from between two lanes of cars, there’s very few places it could have come from (specificly, left or right).

Equaly your coleague didn’t come from nowhere, although stepping out from between two stationary cars is somethign every primary school kid is taught is dangerous as part of the green cross code, motorists can’t see you.

Hope he has a speedy recovery.

“Get well soon” to him. But the obviously didn’t appear from nowhere, that’s physically impossible isn’t it?

So your colleague didn’t look properly and the motorbike was travelling too fast?

Someone did this on me, except I was in an allowed bus lane and they just stepped out. 100% their fault. Luckily I had witnesses.

The pedestrian also said they looked and didn’t see me therefore I was going too fast. What he actually did was just step out. Luckily for him I was ‘watching’ him, otherwise I’d have hit him at 30mph rather than 15mph (and slowing).

Been hit by a big heavy bike is like been hit by a small car, except a car is probably a bit more pedestrian friendly…

In your colleagues case I’d start the blame at 50/50 and go from there.

And what condition is the biker/bike in?

I’m more 60/40 in favour of the motorcyclist. If I’m going to cross the road, I make damned sure that there’s nothing coming that could kill or injure me. If your mate had done that properly instead (as I suspect) giving a cursory glance, he might not now be as badly laid up as he is.

That said, a good motorcyclist should have clocked him and been prepared for him to step into the road. But I still favour the motorcyclists’ cause.

There’s no such thing as “didn’t see” when it comes to using the roads, but there is an awful lot of “didn’t look for”.

If he did look properly he would have seen the motorcycle.They are quite large iirc and tend not to materialize from thin air.

for some the reason, the cloaking device attached to almost every motorcycle I’ve ever owned has been faulty and seems to randomly engage and disengage for no reason. At least according to the car drivers who pulled out in front me.

EDIT and it’s worth mentioning here that bicycles can filter at a fair speed and make less noise than motorbikes, so there is a strong onus on the pedestrian to LOOK

Thing is it’s not about what’s logical or sensible when apportioning blame, it’s about what the law says.

/\ 😆
I particularly like when they see you,make eye contact….and then pull out anyway.

Thing is it’s not about what’s logical or sensible when apportioning blame, it’s about what the law says

Reminds me of a cartoon in an old Cycling magazine.

Written on a gravestone
He Had Right of Way. RIP.

I can see both sides – pedestrian walkign through stationary cars and expecting it to be clear & motorcyclists filterign and expecting there to be no pedestrians dartign out.

Quite how the law will respond I don;t know but it does seem to penalise motor vehicles that are moving through/around otherwise stationary traffic.

Hope the OP’s mate makes a full recovery.

Quite how the law will respond I don;t know but it does seem to penalise motor vehicles that are moving through/around otherwise stationary traffic.

Except in London its pretty common that they’ll be a cycle/scooter/motorcycle coming through.

for some the reason, the cloaking device attached to almost every motorcycle I’ve ever owned has been faulty and seems to randomly engage and disengage for no reason. At least according to the car drivers who pulled out in front me.

Yep, and I had one of these, and three SMIDSY in a week!

I would definitely be in favour of a US-style jaywalking law that makes crossing the road illegal except at a designated crossing. Yes, I know it’s never going to happen, but it infuriates me when people cross the road in a dangerous spot when there’s probably a ped crossing 30 seconds or a minute up the road. I saw a mum with a pushchair and a couple of kids about half a second away from getting wiped out the other day because she couldn’t be bothered to use the ped crossing & ped subway that has been put in to get over the dual carriageway.

Before I start, no matter what the law says, I think it’s about 50/50

Now, to start…..
I once hit a pedestrian whilst filtering on a motorbike. Slightly different situation in that it was a kid who suddenly rushed out from between parked cars, though, but it amounts to the same thing.

The bike didn’t come from nowhere, and nor did the pedestrian but I’ll tell you this for a fact, I SAW that kid come, I was aware the pavements were busy, and going under 20mph, and you simply cannot react that quickly. You can argue that point until the cows come home (which, invariably, they do…) amongst yourselves but unless you’ve done it, you just do not have a clue. I know I couldn’t have missed him.

There’s this thing with bikes (all bikes) that people just don’t look for them filtering. When I filter I become super-aware of this, and towns and cities are the worst places for it. It’s quite possible the rider saw him coming, it’s quite possible he had time to react to some degree, but when you’re filtering there’s nowhere to go. All you can do is brake.

It’s terribly unfortunate, and a situation I hope I’m never in, but at the end of the day, it’s most likely nobody’s fault at all

it’s most likely nobody’s fault at all

This attitude is exactly why they no longer refer to Road Traffic Accidents, they are now RTIs – Incidents.

Things don’t just happen by accident, they happen because of a sequence of events initiated by individuals who may or may not have been aware of the consequences of their actions. I’m not suggesting you have to blame someone, but Road traffic incidents always have someone at fault. Mostly the fault is just poor observation skills.

and didn’t see me therefore I was going too fast

was expecting this argument from a lorry driver that pulled out in front of my mate, until the policeman kindly pointed out that if the lorry driver says he didn’t see us how can he also claim we were going too fast (we were doing 60mph on a straight road & he was oncoming & turned right into a side road)

TBH anyone on a motorbike filtering with stationary traffic is going to be doign <20mph and be in 1st/2nd and generally making a bit of noise too. I think the Pedestrian is at fault on this one.

Unless the ped was a dwarf the motorcyclist should have seen him above the cars and reacted accordingly. If there were vans, HGVs, or buses blocking the view then the filtering speed should have been near walking speed.

Still 50/50 though as any adult should know how to cross the road safely.

Looked but didn’t ‘see’ the motor bike coming…maybe he didn’t see the motor bike because he wasn’t specifically looking for one, on a conscious or unconscious level…known as saccadic masking[/url].

Good advice on that page for all road users.

Surely it depends what the speed limit was and whether the motor cyclist was exceeding that speed limit? Like what they do.

how fast was the motorbike going? must have been going some to knock your mate 20m. probably too fast.
BUT I cycle through central London every day and have to shout at batshitting pedestrians every few hundred metres for walking into a road of stationary traffic without looking properly. especially if there’s a group of them, they’re like batshitting sheep.

on the basis of what you wrote above, the motorcyclist was travelling too quick for the conditions (regardless of speed limit) and your mate should have looked harder. hopefully he’ll recover well.

Maybe I’m biased but I’d say it’s 100% the pedestrian’s fault, for stepping into moving traffic. If it’d been a pushbike then I don’t think many people on here would give that a moment’s thought. The bike didn’t “come out of nowhere”, he just didn’t look. I hope the motorcyclist is OK.

I hit a pedestrian on Deansgate a few years ago – was riding my bicycle down my (empty) carriageway. Nose to tail traffic on the other side, parked cars on my side. It was absolutely pouring down, really torrential summer storm, I had 2 front lights and 3 rear on and wasn’t doing more than 15mph. It was too wet to see if I went faster.

Suddenly from out of the line of stationary traffic, a woman sprinted across the road. Head ducked and holding a newspaper over her to try and shelter from the rain, she simply ran straight in front of me, I had no time to brake, swerve or shout and hit her full on. Took both of us out, fortunately no injuries.

I’d say it’s 100% the pedestrian’s fault. You don’t walk out into traffic without looking fully and in stationary traffic you have to expect filtering bikes down the middle or outside.

he was carried around 20 meters by the impact.

Really?? That’s one hell of an impact and it would have taken the motorcyclist out too. Thrown 20m even though he was in the middle of 2 lanes of stationary traffic? Something not right there. Thrown 2m and hit a car maybe. 20m is nearly the length of maybe 4 or 5 stationary cars. Not likely given that the motorcyclist cannot have been doing more than about 20mph up the middle of the traffic.

how fast was the motorbike going? must have been going some to knock your mate 20m. probably too fast.

Well, a fully loaded bike can easily be 250kg plus a rider in gear – so upwards of 350kg. I’m not a maths guy, but 350kg doing 50km/h and stopping immediately equates to about 10 tonnes of ‘force’.

So somewhere between there and nothing.

I’m not a maths guy, but 350kg doing 50km/h and stopping immediately equates to about 10 tonnes of ‘force’.

350kg doing 50km/h and stopping immediately requires infinite force.

And I’m with the biker on this one.

Unless the ped was a dwarf the motorcyclist should have seen him above the cars and reacted accordingly

You haven’t read what I put up there, have you? He might well have seen him, like I did, but sometimes there’s nothing you can do about it.
Wild guess – you don’t ride a motorbike?

Given that pedestrians are soft and squishy, then the greater duty of care is on the motorcyclist to ensure it’s safe to filter before he does so. There is a dramatic inbalance between what the parties can do to each oterh, than the law recognises this. Roadcraft also says that filtering should be done at no more than a fast walking pace quicker than the traffic your filtering past.

Motorcyclists can and do filter, but they DONT HAVE TO. It’s like any overtakingmanoevre, you have to judge for yourself whether its safe, and that includes observation. Looking out for cars and lorries isn’t enough.

There isnt enough info here in terms of a locus, witness statemtns, police report ect to know if the pedestrian contributed, but start from the basis the motobike is at fault and work backwards, seeking contribution from the pedestrian, if say distracted/on phone or whatever, and with those injuries, those enquiries are needed – no insure will admit off the bat for that sort of claim.

Questions to ask, are, was the accident forseeable. IE could/should the pedestrian have been sighted – could it have been forseen the pedestrian was there? IE london traffic, say near shops/offices/pubs/train stations ect. For example, you see a person, outside a pub, especially late at night, and its forseeable they have been drinking. See a stationary bus at a stop, its forseeable a pedestrian has just got off, see a ice cream van, theres bound to be kids.

To the contrary, was there a safe crossing place close by? Hit apedestrian 10 feet from a zebra crossing, and a court will consider that too.

Need more info for a better answer, but from what we have here, with excess speed, an overtaking manoevre, a vunerable road user, I’m of the 80/20 for pedestrian, if not 100%.

Keep me updated, this is interesting stuff.

I’m going to have to side with the biker although it is recommended you filter at only 5mph more than traffic speed, so he probably was going too fast. I hit a pedestrian running out at a crossing on trafalgar square when the light was green for me, and in middle of lane not filtering. Fortunately I was only doing about 15 mph as I am very wary of this sort of thing. Me + weight of my triumph tiger knocked the pedestrian down hard. Fortunately he was ok’ ish. But would have been different story if I was going much faster. The police sided totally with me and fortunately were lots of witnesses. Hope your colleague is ok, does he have any witnesses?

When I was a courier in London I collected a pedestrian. Japanese guy looked the wrong way and stepped straight into me, bang he went flying down the road and I toppled over just saving it at the last moment. He was fine my headlight was broken and the bars twisted. We were both lucky.

Sympathy is with biker as don’t know how a ped who said he looked didn’t see a biker filtering.

Hope he gets better soon.

So the incident in question occurred around 4 months ago pleased to say my colleague has made a good recovery metal pins in his leg which is now an inch shorter and pinned spine but otherwise not so bad. The reason this became topical is that currently he s making an injury claim against the biker.
I ride and hold a full bike license so am somewhat sympathetic to the biker however as I’ve ridden in London extensively I also know that you have to expect pedestrians/drivers to do unexpected things. Really filtering is to be done a walking pace so although I sympathise I also think it’s mostly on the biker. It’s a knotty one so I’m wondering how it will turn out.

Filtering means lots of cars and vans etc, means low visibility. Neither ped nor bike came from nowhere, they probably both came from behind another vehicle. Filtering is easy to do dangerously, as is crossing the road.

Regardless of the biker filtering, stationary or otherwise – the pedestrian stepped into the roadway.
Period!
Their outright responsibility to ensure it is safe to do so BEFORE stepping out.

Regardless of the biker filtering, stationary or otherwise – the pedestrian stepped into the roadway.
Period!
Their outright responsibility to ensure it is safe to do so BEFORE stepping out.

I didn’t think it was that time of the month?? In English it’s full stop in americalalise it may be Period!

anyway 50/50 on the evidence given which like most things a waste of time as it’s only half the story. What the motorbike rider saw/did/knew about is required to actually decide where fault lies (if any)

Surely it depends what the speed limit was and whether the motor cyclist was exceeding that speed limit? Like what they do.

Speed limit would be fairly irrelevant as it would be down to speed appropriate for the conditions (ie lots of slow stationary traffic and limited visibility)

I would definitely be in favour of a US-style jaywalking law that makes crossing the road illegal except at a designated crossing. Yes, I know it’s never going to happen, but it infuriates me when people cross the road in a dangerous spot when there’s probably a ped crossing 30 seconds or a minute up the road.

Please no, another excuse to hand out fines for no good reason. I especially like the bit where you say there “Probably is” a crossing nearby. I used to live opposite some pubs, it doubled to distance there and back to use the crossing, at 11pm when the road was deserted there wasn’t much point. Laws like that are there because people won’t let Darwinism run it’s course.

Surely the onus is on the pedestrian to choose a safe place to cross, make sure he’s visible to other road users, and look properly before stepping into the road. Basic road safety,, and the sort of thing they used to teach in school.

Motorbikes don’t come out of nowhere. Unfortunately the assumption whenever a motorbike is involved in an accident is usually that they were going too fast. “He just came out of nowhere” is the standard excuse, followed by “He must have been going too fast”.

I had an incident in Spain a few years ago where a cyclist rode across the road in front of me – straight out of a side road, clear view, no other road users, etc, but he just didn’t look. Luckily I had enough time to slow from about 40 to 20-25ish before hitting his back wheel. The cyclist went flying and me and my fully luggaged up KTM went sliding down the road.

the bike came from nowhere

edit: sadly, it sounds like they learned an important lesson

Same thing happened to a friend of mine. He took the culprit to court and got £3000 from them to cover the damage to his motorcycle. He broke both her legs too (in the crash, not as retribution).

MarkLG – Member

Motorbikes don’t come out of nowhere. Unfortunately the assumption whenever a motorbike is involved in an accident is usually that they were going too fast. “He just came out of nowhere” is the standard excuse, followed by “He must have been going too fast”.

When I had my first contact SMIDSY, the culprit first said “Sorry, I didn’t see you” then without missing a beat “and you were going too fast”. Quite impressive that, to know how quick someone you don’t know exists is going.