There has been some criticism of haulage companies sending out drivers in areas affected by the worst weather.
From the pictures I've seen it looked like more than half of the vehicles stuck on the M80 were HGVs.
Given that HGV's are among first vehicles to become stuck in snow conditions and they are the hardest to avoid or remove once they become stuck should there be some mandatory restrictions on driving large goods vehicles in areas under a sever weather warning?
I want my bread and milk you selfish git, send em’ out I say..
And then everyone will moan about starving.
Life goes on, it's only a bit of snow.
Thats the problem - we rely on lorries to deliver food. My local shop is virtually empty - they rely on daily deliveries and have had none for two days
The vast majority of transport mangers I have worked for would send a lorry up an erupting volcano if there was a delivery slot at the top.
In the warehouse you have to follow strict heath and safety rules, walk on the designated walkways only, Hi-viz vest, safety boots, hard hats and many many more. Driving forty tons of stuff through a blizzard.? No problem.
Deliveries of food and perishable goods would be an exception, but there is a lot of stuff being transported that really could wait a day given the conditions.
Just seems utterly mad to send HGV drivers out in these conditions. There are people that need to be out. Doctors, nurses etc and they end up facing impossible journey because the roads are blocked by jack-knifed lorries delivery furniture.
I agree that deliveries still need to get through but....
Main road through my Village is blocked by three HGV's this morning!
Side-by-side in the snow - all stuck in the same place! Traffic is going nowhere at the moment
Yes there could be, but first there needs to be a plan for what to do with the many thousands of HGVs on the road at any one time when an alert is issued. Not sure they can all just stop where they are. There is an element here of ignoring yellow and amber warnings due to the frequency they have been put out over the last few years. Far too many alerts are issued for non-events, a bit of job protection going on after the 2010 incident. If they sorted that out and done away with yellow warnings which are pretty useless anyways and only issued amber warnings when they had to then some form of enforcement could come with them. The biggest issue is that we cannot predict the weather to the level of accuracy required. You cannot currently issue a warning for Thursday next week and expect companies to act on it today. They forecast could have changed by then 9 times out of 10.
Wow reading this makes me realise how very narrow minded some people are, I guess car owners have priority on all roads at all times. Unless you have driven or been part of the road haulage industry you simply wont understand. Running a company now with drivers struggling to get goods to shops for those in need of an extra loaf getting grief of those who need to drive their little darlings 500 yards up the road in their Q7s. Most of the vehicles are fitted with traction locks meaning they can get to places where cars cant, as a driver myself I often found that when the going got tough it was the dump it attitude of car drivers that caused 3/4 s of the problems. Now before I get tarnished with the same "transport manager " brush every driver is given the choice before attempting deliveries in winter operations and not one in the 28 years ive been doing this has been stuck over night or in a ditch.
"Thats the problem – we rely on lorries to deliver food. My local shop is virtually empty – they rely on daily deliveries and have had none for two days" I wonder how most would react when they didn't get their daily brew because a driver didn't fancy trying to do his part.
Running a company now with drivers struggling to get goods to shops for those in need of an extra loaf getting grief of those who need to drive their little darlings 500 yards up the road in their Q7s
It's not like all non-HGVs are Q7 drivers taking their kids up the road. There are lots of medical and emergency service personnel all trying to get out so they can save people's lives.
Surely the answer is pretty simple?
Has no one ever seen Ice Road Truckers?
Understandable that medical staff and emergency services must take priority, but the way the thread comes across from the OP that HGVs only should have restrictions placed upon them im poor weather ......
Heard the guy from the road haulage association on Radio Scotland this morning - 'we need to know earlier' FFS this weather warning has been about for a bloody week at least, and 'telling people to go home from work' were amongst his best excuses.
Lorry drivers not getting paid for not driving or being on zero hour contracts were not featured in his repertoire of excuses.
My take on it - shit happens, we can't invest masses of money to guard against a day or two every few years.
we can’t invest masses of money to guard against a day or two every few years.
Agreed, but given the earning potential of an HGV throughout the year you'd think it would be a wise investment for hauliers to invest a few hundred quid per vehicle into a set of snow chains*
*Other reasonably priced, get-you-out-of-the-shit, traction devices for lorries may be available. Probably
Maybe its just me, but it does seem like one vehicle type is fairly over represented here.
As someone who works for a big delivery company I can give one simple answer: it's in the delivery contracts.
Every contract we have has a penalty charge if we fail to complete a delivery or collection. This charge is usually a similar amount to what we charge in the first place so if we miss a customer we not only don't get paid we have to pay them! If we turn up to the customer's premises and they're shut due to lack of staff then we still get paid.
My boss phoned me this morning to see if I could go in tonight as only 4 of 22 staff have turned up today, he said the resulting fines for missed deliveries and collections add up to £10k plus just for today alone. We have one contract that if we miss the delivery time window we get fined £20,000, we've only missed it once.
This is not a company like Yodel or DHL but I can imagine they at least don't get paid for late/failed deliveries so the pressure to get out there in all weathers is real. How it works for companies like Tesco and Asda who have their own delivery fleet I don't know but I can imagine the pressure to keep shelves stocked and avoid a PR disaster is similar. Also don't forget that a lot of HGV's are long haul so they have full sleeping and cooking facilities in them so if the driver gets stuck they can just bed down until they can get going again. Yes, there should be some common sense used when weather like this comes in but the pressures to get the job done regardless are huge.
Yeah how dare HGVs run at night while everyone is tucked up in bed .. Best not ask the drivers to attempt to deliver their loads of rocksalt today ..
The idea of sending an employee in a big, dangerous machine that could kill them and others into a "danger to life" warning sounds like a lawsuit just waiting to happen.
No one apart from the emergency services should be on the road in a red warning. Folk can eat stuff from their freezers, or do what everyone else would do and note that the warnings are coming and stock up. The haulage contract penalties shouldn't apply in those situations.
Got stuck behind two trucks on the A130 for four **** hours on a very slight incline.
Lorry in left lane gets stuck, so Billy Ballbaggins in the other truck immediately swings out and gets stuck in the right hand lane. Road completely blocked, cheers for that. No chains obviously.
Maybe there should be a legal requirement for them to carry snow socks/chains.
Ya clearly missed the irony in my post then.
Milky1980 - I sympathise, penalties like that are a bastard. Out of interest, do you 'winterise' you fleet? Are winter tyres available for lorries & do they work?
I've seen chains on lorries in the alps, but never in the UK (apart from DCC super-griters)
I'd rather see the useless oxygen-thieves in bullshit jobs (graeber) keeping off the roads when conditions are poor.
Actually, when conditions are good too.
^^^That's why I'm working from home today.
I gave up work, went for a run on the snow roads though..
I want my bread and milk you selfish git, send em’ out I say..
It's not exactly taken a lot of planning. I bought some extra milk, a baguette and a few emergency pizzas to throw in the oven. We have cupboards full of stuff..
It's not like people are going to die of starvation by Sunday when it's all gone.
I can't believe they (the UK) still allow hgv on the roads on Sundays etc. Massive restrictions in mainland europe about this.
A red warning is fairly precise (is it not? I could be wrong...) so why are HGV's going out in it? ....
oh hang on...amazon prime!!!
I say right on to them for getting the job done rather than being all hysterical like most other people.
Theonly caveat I have is that hgv drivers should slow down in the snow as last time I was on the motorway in the snow I was doing ~ 35 mph as we're most others apart from some hgv drivers who were carrying on at 50+ mph. We passed several jacknifed lorrys but the hgvs still kept on speeding.
I can’t believe they (the UK) still allow hgv on the roads on Sundays
Why not good day for them. Less traffic on the road.
enforced day of rest for drivers. less pollution (ish: as won't reduce the number of lorry trips I guess). clearer roads for others?
How come there does seem to be less lorry traffic on the roads in say France. I used to think it was due to better rail networks, but I'm not so sure.
I do note that lots of lorries use the toll free roads rahter than the auto-routes: or will at least get on them later (i.e. at a junction further away) and get off them earlier. As far as i'm concerned this in itself is a nightmare causing lots of lorries on smaller roads going through towns etcc, when there is a perfectly good motrway....oh hang on they will have to pay..
Yeah weeksy, it was a joke.. I even posted higher up that it was a joke...
blurty - we're meant to have Michelin 3 season tyres fitted to all our vehicles (similar idea to the Crossclimate for cars) when we can but the fitting company (ATS ie Michelin) don't always have them. It's just not cost-effective to fit winters as a matter of course for the south of the UK as each tyre on the vans can be £100 (most vans have 6) and the truck tyres are over a grand each! The winter version of the tyres on our trucks cost £2100 a time and they only really work in temps below 10 degrees, any warmer and they burn up very fast. We run winter specific tyres on the fleet based up in the north of Scotland purely as the temps are so low most of the year that they don't wear out any faster than the normal versions. It's not always guaranteed we'll get decent tyres though as we get through them so fast that we have to usually take what is available! The current fleet have a right mixture, everything from Michelin Agilis through to Tigar ditchfinders! We seem to be getting a lot of Bridgestones currently and they look like a sports car tread so useless in this weather. It's unlikely we'll have any vehicles out tomorrow anyway, not because they won't move but due to the drivers being unable to get in.
The only other winterising we do is topping up the screenwash with a stronger mix and getting a few pallets of deicer cans in, for 99% of the time we get out and around fine. Today was the first mass failure day in over 15 years, tomorrow looks like being another.
One point to make about trucks in snowy conditions: their sheer weight actually helps keep the roads flowing in most minor snow events as they turn it to slush a lot faster than cars do. A few cars can compact it into ice whereas a 40T artic will literally push it aside due to their weight and relatively skinny tyres for that weight.
As for the poster saying ban trucks on a Sunday? If you want to have stocked shelves in the supermarket and next day deliveries you need trucks and vans running 24/7. We, as a country do have a habit of taking the delivery network for granted as all our shops are designed around it. Supermarkets running empty if they don't have deliveries for two days for example as they devote as much space as they can to retail space and have small warehouses out back. That's not to say that crap companies like Yodel, Hermes etc have excuses, they don't, but we are so used to having relatively stable weather in the UK (ie rain!!) that anything like a heatwave or snow screws the system up.
Having seen the footage of trucks piling through the back of stationary traffic on the M66 last night, I'd be happy if they were banned from driving in the snow, or at least severely limited in the speed they are allowed to do.
Granted there were cars being driven just as badly, but I know which I'd rather be hit by.
Matt
In terms of both cycling and general driving I'm pretty sure I've had least problems with HGV drivers (be that middle lane hogging, close passing etc. etc.).
Angry, dissatisfied men in their 30s and 40s in so-called-prestige cars, young women in Minis/Fiat 500s using Facebook, angry van man etc. etc. loads. but hardly any bother from HGVs.
All those saying to put snow chains on trucks need to realise that they need to dig into something to get purchase so going from deep snow to slush or tarmac makes them more dangerous. They also take a while to fit and remove so would block off just many roads whilst they fitted and removed. Keeping the chains on whilst driving on tarmac will destroy the road surface and also wear the chain quickly too and the last thing you want is a tyre chain flying off a truck wheel as you’re passing with the family in your car.
The RHA saying they need more warning is probably correct as haulage is usually ramped up prior to Easter and Christmas. If you were take take the trucks off the road for this week you probably need to be increasing supply to the shops at least 3-4 weeks in advance as well as the shops being ready to store it too. Fresh produce would still run out quickly.
My experience is also that HGV drivers are the best on the road, however the massive nature of these vehicles does perhaps warrant stricter safety protocols in severe weather.
Probably won't happen unless lots of people die in a single incident though.
I can’t believe they (the UK) still allow hgv on the roads on Sundays etc. Massive restrictions in mainland europe about this.
I would guess you stay in all day Sunday and observe a strict regime of doing bugger-all, while expecting everyone else to do the same, then.
Meanwhile, most other people go shopping, go to work, and expect shop shelves to be full come Monday morning.
G
enforced day of rest for drivers.
Drivers all ready have a forced day of rest. France is 2 x bigger with < 10% more people.
It strikes me it would be fairly straightforward to make it mandatory to fit* snow chains or winter tyres to ALL vehicles (including HGVs) when there is snow lying on the ground. (* or at least have them available). Then prosecute people who block the carraigeway by not fitting them and slipping.
Thats the problem – we rely on lorries to deliver food. My local shop is virtually empty – they rely on daily deliveries and have had none for two days
But when the lorries get stuck and it causes mass chaos it doesn't necessarily get the food on the shelves any quicker. If the public used their brains then they could buy and extra loaf and pint of milk when the media gets excited rather than waiting until the shelves are almost empty and panic buying.
No one apart from the emergency services should be on the road in a red warning.
Interesting. What defines an emergency services then (most would assume the 999 services). A Dr trying to get to hospital to care for patients? The cleaner who cleans the hospital? The admin staff who make the hospital work? The lab staff who test the blood? The guy who moves samples between different labs? The company that delivers the important reagent the lab needs for the test? The guy who delivers the fuel that goes in the fire engine? The staff who operate the 24/7 refinery that makes that fuel (and can't just close)? The guy who operates the water treatment plant the gives you clean water? The guy who drives the train that gets the water treatment engineer to work? The mother who's child slipped in the snow and wants his possibly broken arm xrayed? The guy with a (real) 4x4 and the right skills who takes Old Mrs Bloggs a microwave meal because her carer cant get through the snow? The guy who sits behind a fancy computer all day - at the Met Office?
The haulage contract penalties shouldn’t apply in those situations.
I agree - hauliers who sign up to such terms are stupid. They have a trade body who should club together to eliminate terms like that which harm the whole industry.
As a lorry driver I do agree that in situations where the weather has been as it is the last few days and red warnings issued HGV’s should return to base or find a suitable place to park up with suitable facilities.
The problem lies with the employers constantly pushing drivers and the “give it a go and see how you get on attitude”. Just yesterday my boss wanted me to load fuel oil bound for a distillery up North of Scotland, thankfully the trace heating at the refinery packed up and the steam pipes burst with the cold so it never went. He wanted to send me up again today but I wasn’t happy to go with it as I thought the road conditions weren’t safe where I was headed... so it never went.
There will be consequences for my actions today for sure but in my opinion a load of oil is not worth risk to life.
If we go down the enforced day of rest who is going to pay the drivers wage? The employer? I doubt it very much, they will ask (tell) the driver to take it as unpaid or as a days holiday.
The other issue is parking, the facilities in the UK are completely inadequate, food is generally greasy spoon crap, toilets disgusting, not safe and not enough spaces for the trucks on the road.
The drivers should should have the sense to realise when road conditions are not suitable to operate 44 tonnes safely, but the issue comes back to employers again pretty much forcing them to head out and “see how you get on”.
We don’t want to get stuck and hold people up, we don’t actively go out our way to get stuck on hills etc but when the weather has been as it is people need to realise that not all deliveries will get through, so supermarkets won’t be as well stocked etc, that would then remove the pressure from drivers to get there reguardless.
All we are trying to do is make a living, the job is difficult enough with being away from home, working long hours and dealing with piss poor driving standards daily, add to that most people thinking we are the scum of the earth and just a nuisance on the road.
Some people have the luxury of taking snow days etc but in this game we don’t have that luxury because people still expect thing to be delivered as normal.. but don’t want to be held up by us.
Remember that without trucks you get Nothing!
There are some HGV drivers who are hell bent on making people’s perception of us a bad one but in general most drivers are doing there best to keep disruption to a minimal when out and about in adverse weather and ultimately just trying to pay the bills.
With the banning of HGV's running in snowy conditions: where do you draw the line? You have multiple classes of vehicles that the public see as a HGV: Articulated trucks, single body trucks, smaller 7.5 tonne trucks, large vans (Ivecos etc), long vans (Sprinters etc).
Do you just blanket ban all commercial vehicles? That would include your beloved T4/5/6's, Berlingo's and other small vans. If you say nothing over 7.5 Tonnes then that means the vast majority of supermarkets will have no deliveries. Until the general public realise that adverse weather will disrupt the normal delivery schedules then the pressure to get them done as 1981miked says above will always be there.
Well said 1981miked
It's not just the drivers wages, what about the shop staff, engineering works staff, warehouse staff, building site workers etc. If the trucks don't deliver their goods, there will be no work. Whose paying the wages?
Snow chains are great on deep snow, but if it isn't deep enough, they just destroy the road underneath.
Here in France , HGVs were banned this week on my local roads and motorways . Anything above 7.5t .
I rely on deliveries for my job , but I ordered a bit more last week knowing the snow was on its way .
Yes ban them all: bad weather should = fewer desperate minimum wage people smashing around in big vehicles.
Wilburt = bellend
Nice to see your not judgemental of people because of how they make a living to put food on the table.
I am neither desperate or on the minimum wage but I’m sure we all appreciate your valuable input into the transport industry.
I've done a lot of miles these last few days but the only active bellendery I've seen has been by car drivers. I've seen some HGVs going quicker than I care to, but nowhere near as many as speedy car drivers.
Really dont normally comment on these this but I spent my childhood s<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">chool holidays trucking on the road with my dad </span><span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">, Some great memories and seen so much of this great country. It's not a easy job at all with all the time pressures of today yes there is some really poor drivers out there but the worst driving I have seen this weekend from car drivers. Anybody remember the fuel protests a few years ago will remember after a couple of days the country we grinding to a halt. Snow chains really are not suitable for this country on motorways and yes winter tyres are a great idea however it will lead to us the public paying more for stuff which we have. I think the police / salt trucks really need to be more cordinated and have some sort of plan rather than keep everybody running until it goes wrong. </span>
Wot 1981miked said
It’s not just lorry drivers who don’t get paid on ‘snow days’. That goes for a lot of other jobs too.
and yes winter tyres are a great idea however it will lead to us the public paying more for stuff which we have
It it would be interesting to see a proper economic analysis of that. I wonder what the impact of effectively closing 80% of Scotland’s income generation down for three+ days? That will be measurable on GDP which means indirectly we are all paying for it anyway (less tax income, less growth so salaries don’t increase). Not to mention the cost of the emergency services, contractors etc who have to do the job of clearing the stuck vehicles from the motorways.
1981MikeD raises some very valid points.
I think the idea of charging to park vehicles at services etc. is dangerous, and profiteering. Drivers should be able to park up.
Maybe Sunday opening isn't such a good idea...