Helping support UK industry- why it's worth it.

BartyP you really need to go and learn some basic economic theory. You wouldn’t entertain a discussion with people about your bonkers custom bike frame unless they had experience of making bicycles to your liking from Ti tubing themselves. So I’m not sure why you’re expecting others to indulge you in macro economics when quite clearly you don’t get it. At all.

😆

I find your interpretation of things fascinating. You’re wrong of course, but carry on thinking lie that if it suits you.

.. and that was wrong because you continue to look at share of the economy, not the gdp attributable to maufacturinh.

Ok then, let’s indulge you:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11957012/UK-growth-suffers-sharper-slowdown-in-third-quarter-as-construction-sector-shrinks.html

http://www.cityam.com/227412/uk-gdp-weapons-manufacturing-ship-repair-and-steel-manufacturing-are-among-the-uks-fastest-shrinking-industries

So now we’ve got that out of the way, let’s look at what this discussion is actually about, rather than what some of you think it’s about. The fact is, that we are losing real skills within our workforce. Much of this is due to automation and improvements in production technology, and much of it is due to industries moving to cheaper labour markets. I’m not disputing this. But part of it is our inability/unwillingness to continue to invest in maintaining skill levels, in the way other nations have. There’s no problem in training people to do other things, but why can’t we also train them in more traditional skills as well?

I think poor barty p is still shill bidding for his bike building friends with this post.

However many have realised there are factories overseas which produce product cheaper and technically far superior to much of the stuff MADE here, even UK bike designers realise Taiwanese factories can and do produce a simply superb products that no one in the UK can match for the price.

The world has moved on.

It’s this kind of attitude that I find depressing. Phillxx75 suggested I get a US or Russian made frame, as it would be ‘better’, in his opinion. An opinion we learned that is not actually based in real knowledge. Putting aside Russia for the moment; the US has several companies that produce high-end Titanium frames. The UK has just a tiny number of people skilled in this field. Surely it’s better to encourage growth here, by employing a UK company, than simply purchasing something from abroad? I’d even possibly be paying more for the same thing from the US, not to mention the unnecessary carbon footprint associated with it’s import.

The world has moved on. And it’s left us behind.

As for ignoring training in basic skills:

Imagine if you want to be able to make a piece of furniture, maybe a workbench. How are you going to set about learning to do so? Will you instantly be skilled in using all the tools you’ll need? No. first, you’ll need to learn how to hold a saw the right way, things like that. Thing is, as others have mentioned, were not doing this. We’re not training people in the basic skills, so that they can go on and develop those skills into more specialist ones. And for those talking about specialist industries; how many of you are actually physically involved in making stuff? And as for ‘designers’ sitting at a desk ‘designing’ something made in the far east; how will you learn to actually use the metal the frames are made from, if you’ve never held a welding torch yourself? That’s not designing a bicycle frame; that’s just ordering from a catalogue of parts, and having people with more skill and knowledge than you, to actually make it.

And any idiot can do that. 😉

The world has moved on. And it’s left us me behind.

FTFY

but why can’t we also train them in more traditional skills as well?

I’d bet actually money that you could find anything you want in the UK traditionally crafted and made by skilled artisans.

No. first, you’ll need to learn how to hold a saw the right way, things like that.

My eldest has been taught these skills at school and I was showing her when she use to help me with logs at the age of 3. They still seem to teach them how to make a wooden box at school like I learnt to do over 30 years ago. When I came to repair a shoe box that may late grandfather made, he was a joiner, about 12 years ago now these skills came back to me.

If had the time and more motivation I’d love to do something along those lines as a hobby. Where would I learn these? The school behind our house does night classes or I could ask a friend’s husband who has his own little furniture business for some tips.

And as for ‘designers’ sitting at a desk ‘designing’ something made in the far east; how will you learn to actually use the metal the frames are made from

What’s wrong with dividing the skill set? Why does the same person that designs need to be the same person that builds? I’ll bet RJ Mitchell was shit with a welders torch, and I reckon IK Brunel probably couldn’t hammer a rivet

if you’ve never held a welding torch yourself? That’s not designing a bicycle frame; that’s just ordering from a catalogue of parts, and having people with more skill and knowledge than you, to actually make it.

…and we’re back to you still smiting from getting your arse kicked on the other thread.

Mostly I just find your downbeat, uneducated and blinkered view of things depressing. The UK has a vibrant and diverse industrial base that leads the world in many important and high value fields. Rather than think “Hey we should try and build on our successes” your proposal is we should try and make metal widgets and furniture again.

We would do much better as a country if we recognise our successes and try and back those.

Oh, and the main frames, forks and stem of Bromptons are made in the UK.
and look at how pricey the built up bikes are and how poor the components are .I cant afford to buy British if it`s going to cost more than something from overseas

Yes, Bromptons are pricey – but unlike some of the other folders they work properly and spares are available.
I don’t understand this fascination with Brompton components being poor quality – exactly which bits are poor quality? Because I can’t tell, and I ride mine for an average of 7 hours a week. All the people I know who’ve told me how I’ve been stupid to buy a Brompton because their “insert generic name” folder is so much better – mostly because its half the price – aren’t still riding them because either something catastrophic has happened to it such as frame failure, or a component which isn’t replaceable has failed, or they’re just fed up with a bike that is difficult to fold and unfold and isn’t reliable.
I bought my bike in 2010 and since that time its been through a couple of pairs of tyres, brake blocks and new chainrings/ chain/ sprockets/ pedals. I’ve replaced the saddle – only because I wanted to not because there was anything wrong with it.

Mostly I just find your downbeat, uneducated and blinkered view of things depressing.

This, your fetishisation of the building of “a thing” over all over aspects of the process is narrow minded.

Ok then, let’s indulge you:

.
Well you failed because you produced articles about one quarter’s figures to address the position of manufacturing over the last 25 years. This is hardly a surprise as you clearly don’t understand this stuff. The skills aren’t lost just less people have them because there is less need for them – if you want to learn a new skill, go to evening classes – many now have the time and the money to indulge themselves in a such a way, they didn’t in the past.

I’ve enjoyed lurking but on the off chance this isn’t an excellent troll, I’d like to stick an oar in…

There’s no problem in training people to do other things, but why can’t we also train them in more traditional skills as well?

Probably due the human aspiration? Kids can leave school now and even with naff grades there are opportunities for high level skilled jobs, there’s SO much opportunity available now compared to this apparent historical golden age where a lot people went to work at the local factory because that was the done thing and it meant food on the table.

As for ignoring training in basic skills:

Imagine if you want to be able to make a piece of furniture, maybe a workbench. How are you going to set about learning to do so?

I think this argument is a bit hazy due to romanticising and confusing the very distinct difference between DIY repair and production/manufacturing.

Taking what you’ve said above “want” is the key word, anyone who genuinely wants to build something will learn how, the fact that they might have to learn the finer points on their own time rather than during the basic education curriculum is neither here nor there because they’re doing it for their own pleasure, not as a job.

Will you instantly be skilled in using all the tools you’ll need? No. first, you’ll need to learn how to hold a saw the right way, things like that. Thing is, as others have mentioned, were not doing this.

Actually, we are. There has been a huge explosion of DIY’ing over the past 6 years or so, with hacker/maker spaces in almost every major city of the country with fully equipped shared labs, workshops and classes teaching those that want the basic and more complex skills. Or if you can’t access any of that you could turn to the internet/youtube for a plethora of online courses/guides

We’re not training people in the basic skills, so that they can go on and develop those skills into more specialist ones.

Also not strictly true, if you take on any specialist course, generally speaking you spend 1-2 years learning first principals and basic skills, the foundation required to learn the more complex stuff. The fact that we don’t grind first principals metalwork into a child who is interested in vetenary studies is probably a positive thing.

And for those talking about specialist industries; how many of you are actually physically involved in making stuff?

Quite heavily actually as you can’t just hand over a raw novel design to a manufacturing site and expect perfection out the other end. A huge amount of work is required setting up the line and achieving appropriate optimisation. All of which requires a working knowledge and hands on experience with every manufacturing step.

And as for ‘designers’ sitting at a desk ‘designing’ something made in the far east; how will you learn to actually use the metal the frames are made from

It’s called education, most people take a degree or a technical diploma.

if you’ve never held a welding torch yourself? That’s not designing a bicycle frame; that’s just ordering from a catalogue of parts, and having people with more skill and knowledge than you, to actually make it.

Ordering off the shelf tubes (which by the way EVERYONE does because not even boutique frame builders draw their own tubes) and having someone with a manufacturing skills set build a frame is not designing no.

Knowing how the human form engages with the geometry of the frame and how loading and stress and strain works so that you order the correct size/type/material and dimension accordingly IS design. Welding regardless of how utterly skilful it is, is not design, it’s manufacturing.

Going back to the history stuff, I’ve recently spent some personal time learning about analogue electronics (old 1940’s radios and the such) and back then people fixed their own stuff because they had no other choice, it’s post war, no money about and so people learnt how things worked. Then the digital age came about and those skills form before suddenly didn’t apply to microprocessors and super compact components. But we are having a return of that surge, people of all ages are learning how to re-program and rebuild their super fine consumer products again, as the knowledge has trickled down into mainstream view.

Excellent post, jamie bkc. I don’t agree with much of it, but thanks for taking the time to post it. Far more positive an input than some on here.

…and we’re back to you still smiting from getting your arse kicked on the other thread.

I find your opinion rather amusing. I hadn’t realised it was a ‘fight’. 😆

The UK has a shrinking vibrant and diverse industrial base

FTFY.

What’s wrong with dividing the skill set? Why does the same person that designs need to be the same person that builds? I’ll bet RJ Mitchell was shit with a welders torch, and I reckon IK Brunel probably couldn’t hammer a rivet

The Victorians were surprisingly versatile in their abilities. I’d imagine they probably spent quite a bit of time in workshops, tinkering. They didn’t have CAD and FSA technologies to assist them in those days.

And they didn’t live in homes furnished by IKEA….

And they didn’t live in homes furnished by IKEA.

but the original piece of IKEA furniture needed to be designed and modelled and fabricated, and then broken down to parts so that it could be built easily…and I bet that was largely done by one person in a shed.

EDIT, but they did have home decorated with Wedgewood, which in many ways was the IKEA of it’s day.

And they didn’t live in homes furnished by IKEA….

Bet the would have loved the opportunity though. Quality furniture are affordable prices is always going to be a winner.

how will you learn to actually use the metal the frames are made from, if you’ve never held a welding torch yourself?

Books, lectures, Uni, & TWI courses, in fact the people I know writing the welding specs understand welding far, far better than the guys with the torch.

The UK industrial base is not shrinking. It’s just that in the real world industry doesn’t mean what it means in your head.

This has got to be a troll. A good one granted. Combined with the “Homer’s car” bike thread surely no one is this blinkered?

That Aston is a perfect example of why.

Aren’t Aston owned by Ford? Or have they moved on again?

FWIW Honda in Swindon, Nissan in Sunderland and Toyota in Burnaston…

Thank goodness we still have those fine British motor companies. 😆

We would do much better as a country if we recognise our successes and try and back those.

this ^^^ is really important. IIRC the quality of manufactured stuff in the 70s – British Leyland anyone?, was dire. How many Austin Allegros and Vauxhall Chevettes do you still see on the roads? IIRC the Japanese came along and absolutely kicked our butts on the quality front and we simply couldn’t compete…

It was recognised that our strength as a nation is much more in creativity, invention, design – the ideas, and that we’d be better off letting other countries do the manufacturing whilst we played to our strengths. this progressive creative streak is centuries old – it’s not an accident that the industrial revolution began in the UK, and also rocknroll/pop music for what it’s worth… (our creative industries are considered world class btw)

OP – I suspect you’re going to stubbornly stick to your opinion, no matter what counter arguments you’re given and no matter how many flaws in your argument are pointed out (e.g. confusing exporting services with emigration!). Good luck with that attitude….

IIRC the Japanese came along and absolutely kicked our butts on the quality front and we simply couldn’t compete…

That’s a very interesting point, especially as Japanese produced kit was seen as inferior back in the 60s/70s (and possibly 80s). They managed to turn that around massively.

Correct me if wrong, but I have been lead to believe that the Japanese, while not being particularly innovative, tend to take an existing product (prime case being cars) and improve it, while often making it cheaper to produce. Hence vehicles such as the Toyota Hilux.

Aren’t Aston owned by Ford?

No were sold in 2007 to a consortium headed by Dave Richards, although it has changed its makeup since then.

At the end of the day you don’t need to make the car, plane etc. to have significant components in it. Think Martin-Baker ejection seats or GKN Driveline products.

OP – I’d class this as blatant troll had I not seen your other post where you come across as a Grade A weapon.

A) Don’t believe everything you read in the Daily Mail
B) Not all industry has to be based in London
C) Not everything is shouted about on the internet or press

I’ve got a lot of mates and family based up north who are all in aerospace and renewables (my brother included) who would beg to differ on all of your points. You’re just coming across as ill-informed and then trying to argue it with nonsense you’ve found on the web. My advice would be to just stop.

Pianos, oh just the names left bar one low volume high margin.

PA equipment most of the big players are foreign owned or long since bankrupt.

Cars & Motorbikes apart from a few low volume niche brands are under foreign ownership and/or only assemble in the UK.

The majority of energy providers are foreign owned and we now need Chinese and French input building new nuclear power stations.

Most of the famous British food brands are part of American conglomerates.

Steel production, whats left of it, Indians (Tata) own it.

Quality trade tools are not manufactured in this country as they once were and in many instances there has been a nose dive in quality, the brand names live on of course!

Push bikes apart from a few low volume frame builders are from Taiwan.

What about ship building, trains, planes, plant and machinery, yeah we still do some but no where near as much.

Some of the most successful economies, even the 1st world developed ones, seem to view these things as an important and diverse part of their economies, not replaced by creative and financial services! Still it must be working right, it does seem as though Britain is thriving and not desperate to slash costs, cut corners and save money absolutely everywhere. So yeah lets support where we can.

… it does seem as though Britain is thriving and not desperate to slash costs, cut corners and save money absolutely everywhere.

Are you being ironic?

I’m genuinely not sure.

Some of the most successful economies, even the 1st world developed ones, seem to view these things as an important and diverse part of their economies, not replaced by creative and financial services! Still it must be working right, it does seem as though Britain is thriving and not desperate to slash costs, cut corners and save money absolutely everywhere. So yeah lets support where we can.

I’d agree with a lot of your assessment of how many UK assets are now foreign-owned – and that this is not ‘a good thing’ IIRC it’s how Enron went so spectacularly bust – it turned out they didn’t actually own of their assets, they’d sold them all off and were leasing them back

But, the OP is claiming that having a larger manufacturing sector would resolve all this. Which is somewhat missing the point. There’s plenty of money to be made in low volume, high value manufacturing, in services, in design etc etc. Also probably a good idea to wean us off a dominant financial services sector, consumer spending, a housing bubble and debt but that’s a whole other discussion!

It’s this kind of attitude that I find depressing

Suck it up buttercup that’s the real world , I do wonder if NASA are aware there is life on another (your) planet?

Funny innit, i had to learn how to use all sorts of machinery as part of my engineering degree, and had to keep up to date with developments in machinery tech as part of my CPD. Maybe bartyp works in an industry where they don’t care about stuff like that.

Aren’t Aston owned by Ford? Or have they moved on again?

Yes they have but even if they hadn’t they’re manufactured in the UK which is kind of the point.

@ Pimpmaster Jazz – 😉

@ brooess – Yup it is. Embarrassing to see our government so desperate to rake every penny it can from the populace, they have turned nearly every sofa upside down!

as this is a thread celebrating British engineering, i thought i’d post a photo from Wednesday at work…

Yes they have but even if they hadn’t they’re manufactured in the UK which is kind of the point.

Is it? I thought it was about supporting British industry. Manufacturing is only part of that.

Well, it’s taken me a while to trawl through this thread, just to make sure I understood the basic premis and the counterpoints raised. All I know is that I design an make stuff in Yorkshire from components mostly made in Yorkshire and people from all over the World seem to want to buy it. And today I was priviledged to visit a successful design and manufacturing facility in Sheffield that makes virtually everything “in house” and they are exporting their goods all over the World. Quality and good design sells, it doesn’t need nay-sayers talking it down and the people making it happen are quietly getting on with the job.

Quality and good design sells, it doesn’t need nay-sayers talking it down and the people making it happen are quietly getting on with the job.

+1

If you can make a good product, that does the job well and is fairly priced people will buy it.
Down here in Oz (In Tasmania) there is a big Made here thing, problem is when stuff isn’t as good and twice the price it’s hard to justify.
A mate summed it up, I won’t buy something worse just because of where it was made.

For every Hope, Exposure, Orange, Aston Martin there is a Rover.

For every Hope, Exposure, Orange, Aston Martin there is a Rover.

Errrm, the 200 was a Honda in drag. Although I’m not sure where that leaves the argument, tbh.

I actually had one from brand new in the early 90’s (company car) and I was pleased with it. The engine was a rev happy gem.

The K-series is a midget gem, sort of squidgy, slightly funny taste and sometimes goes rock hard and brittle.

Errrm, the 200 was a Honda in drag. Although I’m not sure where that leaves the argument, tbh.

Assembled by the special. Friday afternoon squad down in the West Midlands, of the 5 people I knew who owned them we compared what had gone wrong, mostly the same buts had fallen off and failed. Easily one of the worst second hand cars I had owned.

You may not be aware you are supporting UK industry when buying imported goods, some components are hidden