Have any small town centres thrived when an out of town supermarket arrives?

grum – Member
No, but I do try and support the LBS where possible. I don’t really get this idea that it has to be all or nothing or you’re a hypocrite.

I agree. Sometimes, it’s nice to dash round the supermarket. Sometimes I want a speciality product or service they don’t supply. It’s nice to have the choice.

Trash in what way, care to be more specific?

Taste wise, most stuff is bland at best.
Have you ever bought a strawberry from a supermarket? They’ll bounce.
There are hundreds of different varieties of fruit in this country that just get pushed aside for the stuff that travels well. Oh and don’t get me started on stuff that has to be the same shape and size.
Cucumbers will at best last a week in your fridge, taste of water nad be perfectly straight in shape.

I agree. Sometimes, it’s nice to dash round the supermarket. Sometimes I want a speciality product or service they don’t supply. It’s nice to have the choice.

I’m quite happy for supermarkets to exist, I just think they have too much dominance/power/control over the market.

And we haven’t even talked about the effect that supermarkets have on suppliers.

I’m quite happy for CRC/Merlin/Wiggle to exist, I just think they have too much power/control over the market.

And we haven’t even talked about the effect that CRC/Merlin/Wiggle have on suppliers.

druidh – Member

I’m quite happy for CRC/Merlin/Wiggle to exist, I just think they have too much power/control over the market.

And we haven’t even talked about the effect that CRC/Merlin/Wiggle have on suppliers.

Much the same applies to tesco does it not – indeed they probably distort the market more.

Edit
DOH – read the thread properly

Well said Bunnyhop!

More and more is being grown in polytunnels. 🙁

I’m quite happy for CRC/Merlin/Wiggle to exist, I just think they have too much power/control over the market.

And we haven’t even talked about the effect that CRC/Merlin/Wiggle have on suppliers.

Er…. yes, I agree -not really sure what point you’re trying to make here though.

As compared to what, boutique produce grown by the chap at the end of your road?

Can he supply 60 million people?

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/green-living/todmordens-good-life-introducing-britains-greenest-town-1830666.html

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See, I find I agree with Bunnyhop on fruit/veg longevity and quality. However, I got brought up in market garden territory and still know folk from the area. They always say that the supermarkets choose the best of the produce and the crap goes off to be wholesaled to the local markets.

Will a polytunnel get you shitfaced? No. Cheap booze in supermarkets 8)

The CRC/wiggle comparison is valid, but only to a point.
Both have vast power and control in their market.

The real problem is the power of the supermarkets outside of just their market; in lobbying and politics.
The big four employ nearly a million people. With nearly 3 million unemployed in the country, they have the government over a barrel.
Why do you think we, as taxpayers, subsidise their low wage employees whilst top end salaries and profits grow.
They’re extending their influence into infrastructure, transport, education, finance, health and almost ever aspect of daily life.
That small batch of electronic automatic tills at the end of every check-out line is not just “a trial”; Its a gun at the head of the department of employment. They are too powerful.

Whenever I’ve bought strawberries they’ve varied hugely no matter where or when they were bought. Some of the best I’ve ever had were from Sainsbury’s. Outstanding.

Our local Asda sells more local stuff than any of the other local places btw. And the meat from our Waitrose is fantastic.

There are plenty of absolutely shite small shops around. I don’t think they deserve my patronage to be honest. There is also good food available in supermarkets despite what Bunny says.

Also plenty of absolutely awful LBSes too.

I think we are lucky, supermarkets in this country are excellent, they are remarkably nimble for such big companies, see how quickly they react to new influxes from particular regions by stocking their home specialities. It is impressive. That said, they do draw footfall the fundamental of any bricks and mortar retail operation from high streets, councils should have strategies to decrease this and perhaps, they could get money out of the supermarkets in exchange for planning permission to finance these.

There is also good food available in supermarkets despite what Bunny says.

Of course.
However my experience of buying fruit and veg in a typical Tesco, Sainsbury’s or Asda hasn’t been the same as yours.
M&S o.k. Booth’s o.k and Waitrose o.k. It just so happens our local food shops are very good.

mefty – Member
they could get money out of the supermarkets in exchange for planning permission to finance these.

Or the government could apply a special tax/levy

http://www.scotsman.com/the-scotsman/politics/tesco_tax_will_strip_stores_of_10_of_profits_say_analysts_1_2047555

Or the government could apply a special tax/levy

I don’t agree with that because exceptional success should not be taxed, I think you have to look to the future and put a price on growth. I accept the genie is out of the bottle but the concept of taxation to make amends for the past government failure (i.e not putting a price on growth) is wrong in my view.

Depends what you buy I suppose. I hate cucumbers 🙂 Lots of fruit is sold under-ripe of course, but if you buy mangoes, melons and nectarines in the UK you are asking for trouble, for instance.

It just so happens our local food shops are very good.

Yeah they are around – this is what I am trying to say – a good shop is a good shop and will do well. I am not sure about supporting rubbish because it happens to be small and local. Don’t you have to deserve success?

Don’t you have to deserve success?

Yes, but if you are starved of oxygen – i.e. footfall – when you are stuck in a lease by a decision made by local government, it is tough. Some recognition needs to be made for this at the local level when granting planning permission. I am a believer in markets person but you have to recognise when government, whether local or national, distort that and the planning process is one of those areas.

The problem I see, is that you simply can’t beat the convenience and value of a large supermarket. All but the hardest of protesters will succumb to it eventually, because with a Supermarket life becomes easier and more affordable.

In return however, the town has to give up a small portion of its soul. Any eccentricity will be replaced by a bland uniformity. Each and every individual dragging their feet around the same isles, eating the same foods…

Thing is, easy and affordable isn’t always the best way to live. But given the option, the majority will choose it. Hence why for most people, sporting activities like mountain biking are confined to TV and X-Box.

butcher – Member
Each and every individual dragging their feet around the same isles, eating the same foods…

I see quite a lot of local variation

trail_rat – Member
arbroath has a tescos , morrisons and a now an asda
so i end up driving to dundee to get what ever i want.

Giving yourself airs and graces, the sports shop in the abbeygate will still sell trackie bottoms and Addidas Forest Hills; Arbroath punters sartorial needs filled.

Asda is handy for the way home; it won’t be there long,it is dead.

Yes, but if you are starved of oxygen – i.e. footfall – when you are stuck in a lease by a decision made by local government, it is tough. Some recognition needs to be made for this at the local level when granting planning permission

Agreed. Planning is vital.

Thing is, easy and affordable isn’t always the best way to live. But given the option, the majority will choose it. Hence why for most people, sporting activities like mountain biking are confined to TV and X-Box.

Bit of a sweeping generalisation there isn’t it? Just because people might eat Heinz Beans doesn’t mean they’re mindless inert automatons, in reality.

tesco cause 1.5 job losses for each they create.

the big supermarket’s food is like eating plastic! if you dont understand what i mean by that, grow a tomato plant on your windowsill this summer (a nice variety that doesn’t have maximum profit as its only criteria) the seeds should be about 99p. its just coming up to the right time of year to plant.

this experiment is easy and fun, and will make you realise the low quality of the crap tesco are trying to feed you at extortionate prices, which has a side effect of destroying our farming industry (i cant live without food can you?)

they dont even pay tax ffs!

Yes, Bury in Lancashire fought back against the out of town stores by roofing over the streets and turning the centre into a really nice mall. It is now a busy and prosperous town.

I’m afraid I’ve got nothing but negative experiences of the impact that supermarkets have on the high street and suppliers.

It’s entirely the fault of the public though. I remember reading an article on the rise of supermarkets. Small grocers and butchers etc were selling very variable quality produce and people weren’t able to afford meat every day. When the supermarkets offered consistent quality and lower prices, people were naturally attracted to them. Since then the methods that the big chains have used to cement their position and effectively subjugate producers is one of the great scandals of the past 30 years. It’s at a point now where nothing short of strict legislation will curb their powers. Unfortunately this is massively unlikely to happen as real political power in Britain is held by companies like Tesco. The British public and primary producers are in thrall and it’s not going to change IMO.

i worked for tesco on new store development.. arrgghh. town centres close because the parking is sporadic and insuffcient to meet potential and you have to pay for it. supermarket parking is generous and FREE where would you choose to park your car?
answer that and the next question is simple.. where having parked your car will you shop?
how do you get from your home to the place you do your shopping? traditional enviromentally friendly methods like walking or horse and cart or do you opt for the safety and convienance of jumping in a tin box?
did you protest / sign petitions wanting to stop the advance of the supermarket and the decimation of your town centre?
where do you shop now? if only 10 in 100 of the protesters actually shopped elsewhere for ever they might have some impact but upon store opening guess who are the first in the queue?
supermarkets dont close high streets YOU DO
by refusing to pay for parking by refusing to park away from the shop by refusing to serve the community by using the communities shops YOU are the only person you can blame.
corner shops have largely disappered high street shopping is a dinosaur in its death throes out of town supermarkets are slowing down development as saturation levels are reached ( i dont see any closing though) supermarkets are scrambling to reclaim the former highstreets although opening hours are been reduced (Waitrose are in the coming months reducing thiers)

Can I just say that retail has always and is evolving. Look back into the 20th century and alot of ‘normal’ life was based around acquiring food, woman in the kitchen etc’.

With the internet etc etc- the way we shop, the way we live is changing.

So what if a town centre dies off. Things change. Its use will become something else. Why should a row of shops dictate what our culture is?

Look to the future. Convenient shopping gives you more time to do things that you’d actually like to do with your spare time.

Convenient shopping gives you more time to do things that you’d actually like to do with your spare time.

I never thought I’d say this, but I quite enjoy going down and getting my shopping in, in a more traditional non-supermarket way on a Saturday morning.

And as far as supermarkets are concerned; they’ve pulled off an enormous scam. People now make the automatic assumption that they are cheaper. They’re not. I buy fresh fruit and veg from the local market. Its far fresher, and better quality, and I reckon its coming in at 60% of the supermarket price.

For meat, I buy it from the local butcher. The price is about the same. Its certainly no more expensive. The quality? There’s just no comparison. Supermarket bacon? Whats the point?

They’re not. I buy fresh fruit and veg from the local market.

Yep Veg from Woking market is 1/2 the cost of the local Morrisons – it is often class 2 rather 1 but i can live with not quite perfect veg

You are a woman and I collect my £5!

You’re an utter **** and I collect mine 😛

People now make the automatic assumption that they are cheaper. They’re not

ah. You clearly don’t live where I do. They are, because the sh1tty local shops have had a captive audience and thus could charge what they wanted.

Parking – Its all about the parking! And opening hours.

I’m increasingly convinced that the best method for acquiring food will be to do a regular “big” shop online for long shelf life type groceries and other household supplies. Stuff that comes in a box/tin/packet and you don’t need to select in person or buy fresh.

Then a much more frequent daily/every other day shop at a small local place to get fresh fruit and veg, meat, fish etc.

Best of both worlds, cheap groceries and high quality fresh produce.

But very few local shops currently offer this opportunity mainly because the opening hours are pathetic. Look to the continent (Holland is a very good example), most shops are open into the evening so that people can do their shopping on the way home from work (on their bike). Here you are lucky if the local shop stays open past 4.30 and going at lunch isn’t a good option as you have to pay £2.50 to park.

Sure supermarkets do some fairly dodgy things to get their shops built but it is the crappy British local shopkeeper who let them be successful.

Look to the continent (Holland is a very good example)

My experience of Amsterdam, admittedly ten years ago, was far more shops were open in the evenings in London that there.

Comparing the center of a large city to another isn’t really the point. Look at small towns, little high streets etc. Places where people actually live and it is therefore convenient to shop.

The exact places supermarkets are opening up their shops here.

You won’t find a big supermarkets in Holland. And that isn’t because the global mega brands don’t want to be there. Its because the local shops are good and convenient so there is no demand for a large out of town store selling everything.

I sort of agree that some shops could be a bit more inventive with their opening times, but I imagine it’s hard for one or two shops to make it worthwhile when there isn’t the culture of town centre shopping of an evening.

And do they not have supermarkets in Holland then?

I never thought I’d say this, but I quite enjoy going down and getting my shopping in, in a more traditional non-supermarket way on a Saturday morning.

Me too. The greengrocer is significantly cheaper than Sainsbury’s, and the veg is fresher and tastier. The butcher is more expensive, but I don’t mind because of the quality. It’s actually quite nice to buy things from people who care about what they sell.

Including a quick whiz round Aldi to buy other groceries, I can do the whole shopping trip in about an hour. That doesn’t seem so inconvenient…

The quality of produce in Albert Heijn was far worse than here, they were dreadful but they had a very dominant position in A’dam. I wouldn’t like our supermarkets to go that way. I think what the Dutch got right is new offices were built on the outside of town, so people live in the centre and commute outwards. Therefore high street are near to where people live. This is why independent shops survive, I think we are as good at retail as the Dutch so it is not a question of quality. We did the opposite so out of town supermarkets are more convenient.

And do they not have supermarkets in Holland then?

Not really. They have AH but they are small, about the size of a large Tesco express/small Tesco Metro. They are always on the high street (as this is where people shop) and only sell food really. Certainly no clothing, greetings cars etc.

mefty‘s point about living in town and working out of town is a valid one. But we aren’t talking about large urban centers here. People here still live in small towns and villages, normally within walking distance of some shops (or at least a shorter drive than the supermarket), but the only shops open past 5 will be the Tesco Express (which is about as crappy and overpriced as you can get) and the rest will be a hair dresser, a bookies, a take away and a charity shop.

High streets opening hours used to be OK as housewives could shop during the day. Now people work so can’t do this. Supermarkets have evolved to fill this gap with late evening/24 hr opening and shops near where people live with free ample parking. There is no reason small local shops can’t fill this market as well but they didn’t evolve and instead played the victim card, stuck to their ways and died.

I never thought I’d say this, but I quite enjoy going down and getting my shopping in, in a more traditional non-supermarket way on a Saturday morning.

And as far as supermarkets are concerned; they’ve pulled off an enormous scam. People now make the automatic assumption that they are cheaper. They’re not. I buy fresh fruit and veg from the local market. Its far fresher, and better quality, and I reckon its coming in at 60% of the supermarket price.

Edit – our local butcher will deliver free and take stuff home for you in the evenings, it’s always worth asking.

For meat, I buy it from the local butcher. The price is about the same. Its certainly no more expensive. The quality? There’s just no comparison. Supermarket bacon? Whats the point?
Exactly how I feel binners.

Take the humble sausage. A pack from a supermarket with be full of left overs and an adult would probably need half the pack to feel satisfied. At the local butchers you would need just a couple of sausages or at the most 3 to get full and feel that you’ve had a decent meal, made with quality meat that is fresh and most likely locally sourced. The cost of the 4 sausages will end up the same for the cheap pack of 10 or 12 from a supermarket.

As for the supemarket coming to the end of it’s run, I feel this won’t happen in my life time, however a local Sainsbury’s store was all but empty when they revamped the Asda opposite.