Has anyone been on the Alpha Course?

The important question is what would jesus ride?

A steel single speed? Fully rigid?

No, he'd ride a cross bike!

I'm guessing ernie is referring to Evolutionary Anthropology

I'm referring to the the 'evolution of society' a term which you claim, was 'made up by me this minute'.
A quick google, shows that the term 'evolution of society' gets 27 million results …… I must have been busy in that minute 😯

'ultra-leftist' – i think it means you dress to your left and are well hung.

If you want to torture a man, place him in solitary confinement. If you want torture an Orangutan, send him to a dinner party.

Two extremely closely related species …… the difference ? Evolution RELIGION my dear Watson

EDIT: ernie you were clearly refering to the principles of Darwin being applied to society not the fact that societies evolve.

i think it means you dress to your left and are well hung.

wrong on both counts 🙁

ernie you were clearly refering to the principles of Darwin being applied to society

I said that Darwinian logic applies to the evolution of societies …..of course it does. As does human behaviour.

in case anyone thinks they've seen through the subterfuge, ernie and I are not conspiring off-forum to ever higher levels of implausibility, honest!

of course it does

that's what people say when they have nothing better to support their argument 🙁 [it's called 'ad hominem']

Ernie,if you are talking about "Social Darwinism" thats a pretty discredited science.

And there is no way of knowing that all successful societies ever have had religions, although the vast majority appear to have had some kind of religion. There is no evidence for ritualistic behaviour before the upper Paleolithic, by which time humanity had spread to most of the world, in some form or other.

Arguing from that point that religion is one of the vital ingredients of humanity's success is specious reasoning at best. You could just as well argue that religion is the side effect of human curiosity seeking to explain natural phenomena without a sufficiently developed theory of the world, and the power of narrativeon a species whose evolutionary advantages are a versatile and flexible brain, and a complex and efficent form of communication that includes abstract concepts and ideas.

That social cohesion that common origin stories among non-kin groups can bring about is potentially advantageous, as are taboos and mores handed down from a "higher authority". Pretty often religion is as much about maintaining and legitimising power as it is explaining the world, laying down ways to live with others etc.

It'd be interesting to think how christianity would be different if the Jews had been goat-herders, not shepherds. You lead sheep, goats have to be driven.

wrong on both counts

Also false of course, is the claim that you are an anarchist. You describe yourself as one, simply due to an infantile need to shock and sound controversial.

Ernie,if you are talking about……

I'm pretty direct about what I'm talking about. There should never be any need for "if".

Also false of course, is the claim that you are an anarchist. You describe yourself as one, simply due to an infantile need to shock and sound controversial.

I wish I had your insight into my internal processes 🙂 Do you tell fortunes too ? What's my star sign ?

I believe in the leader…

I wish I had your insight into my internal processes

I can read you like a book mate.

Surely you've noticed that before ?

Well, the if was a bit more polite than suggesting that you are using specious logic and a circular argument to talk bollocks.

I can read you like a book mate.

my reading is different but I admit I lack objectivity…

Well thanks for the polite term khegs. You obviously disagree with me, and I'm fine with that. A quick google search throws up the oldest religious relic as being 70,000 years old, admittedly it was found in southern Africa, but it still suggests that religion existed long before man first left Africa, which was 45,000 years ago ? I maintain that religion has been vital for the evolution of human societies around the world, despite the fact that some might disagree.

am I right in thinking it was a crucifix ?

There you go mate if you're interested …..

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=8cb46f0c-7715-46d6-8b2a-44216f9d25f8

I maintain that religion has been vital for the evolution of human societies around the world, despite the fact that some might disagree.

You can maintain that if you like, but what you are saying is:

A is always found with B, therefore A is essential for B to exist.

– which is pretty shaky really.

pretty shaky really

Well there you go………probably best to dismiss it then.

70,000 years ago is a bit late, there is evidence for intentional ritual behaviour from roughly 300,000 years ago, mainly intentional burial with grave goods. Modern humans began migrating out of Africa roughly 100,000 – 70,000 years ago according to current thinking.

We'll disagree about the relative importance of religion in societies though, I'd argue that religion is a side-effect of the traits that allow humans to be successful, rather than a defining factor.

I'd argue that religion is a side-effect of the traits that allow humans to be successful

I'm going for "destructive meme which served to stifle progress and support the status quo"

pretty shaky really

Well there you go………probably best to dismiss it then.

You're very black and white with these things aren't you?

All I'm saying is that that statement in itself shows nothing either way so isn't a good start for making any claims either way. That's not to say that it isn't an interesting observation, but you could equally well (and just as speculatively) interpret it to shows that religion cannot exist without society.

religion cannot exist without society.

at the risk of sounding like ernie I think that may be an "of course" because religion is organised belief…

What would jesus ride?

He probably rode a dinosaur

70,000 years ago is a bit late

I googled artefact not behaviour.

"I'd argue that religion is a side-effect of the traits….."

Indeed 'we'll disagree' as you say. There has been a sufficient amount of societies throughout human history, including plenty of completely isolated ones, for there to have been the occasional successful atheistic one, if religion was not vital in the success of a society – the laws of probability dictate that imo. I am not aware of any such societies.

EDIT : Actually the reverse should be true imo, ie only the occasional religious society should exist. After all …… all that effort and expense put into time-consuming nonsense, which does not in anyway benefit the society, must surely put that society at a disadvantage over other societies.

Do those of you that believe in god also believe in satan? That was one thing that never sat right with me when I was younger and went through a religious education.

It isn't possible to see sub-atomic particles – Thats to do with the pesky physical quality of light end our eyesight, not belief.
If those "theoretical particles" were shown not to exsists, scientists would change their belief to match the results…not shut their eyes to it. There lies the basic difference between belief and theory which some people on here should get to grips with.

The reason I am "shouty" about religion as one person put it is the same reason I am a bit "shouty" about extreme political beliefs (left or right wing) and other nutters who wreck lives. I'm not going to invoke Godwins Law by mentioning the H or N words 🙂

"but what does ever offer to go in religion's place? What can he teach me about compassion, charity, kindness? "

Why should he teach you anything, learn and work it out for your self FFS. Sheeple…sheesh

"All I mean is that just because the central belief of a religion cannot be proved, it doesn't follow that everything it says should be dismissed."

When you get down to it, and it is normally the religious types doing this, that is all they fall back on as there is no empirical evidence for it thus pointless arguing about. Its the adult version of "you smell…because you do"

SSP

Blimey, it's still running.

Just checking in before teatime.

Anyway – despite the amusingly dim knockabout drivel from the pompous Mr ernie, still no actual evidence, I notice.

There. Just thought I'd flag it up again…

PS: Satan spelled backwards is "natas". Makes you think, eh?

TBH I haven't read much or enough of this thread but wondered whether Steelfans original question about the Alpha Course had been answered or did that get in way of a good theological debate? 😉

the amusingly dim knockabout drivel from the pompous Mr ernie

Well it was certainly "knockabout" stuff. Not really wanting to get involved in this thread, I just posted something with the intention of leaving it at that. You wouldn't believe amount of attention my "dim drivel" received.

Some people really shouldn't spend so much time discussing drivel.

So anyway Woppit you've obviously bothered reading it ……… what do you think ?

all that effort and expense put into time-consuming nonsense

isn't that the glory of humanity that we have time for pointless entertainment ?

amusingly dim knockabout drivel from the pompous Mr ernie

that's unkind – though I still suspect ernie is pulling our legs!

who are the saucy chicks with the upswept hair ?

isn't that the glory of humanity that we have time for pointless entertainment ?

But I'm not knocking it, I'm I ? In fact the opposite……..I'm suggesting that it is, and has been, vital.

The problem is, some people think that they represent some sort of advance life form (blessed by God maybe ?) which is quite different from all other species. When in reality, just like any other species on the planet, and they are at the mercy of both nature and nurture. Sorry to piss on your chips.

I'm convinced god exists.

In exactly the same way as love, imagination and unhappiness clearly exist. Inside your head and nowhere else.

Oh, and SFB – you must be a Gemini. Because Geminis don't believe in all that superstitious mumbo jumbo.

There's no god in my head. Does this mean I'm sane? I thought "he" was supposed to be everywhere?

Glad he's not though. Imagine carrying a deity around in your bum cheeks all day…

Mr Woppit – I think you've been the only consistently sane voice on this thread.

I should have clarified that he only exists for those who indulge in that particular delusion. Just like unhappiness – I dont bother with that either.

Well. Looks like that just about wraps it up for god, then. Night night.