Halving abortions to 12 weeks

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19854465

So the new health secretary has no background in medicine, believes in homeopathy and wants to half the abortion limit based on evidence he probably can’t understand having no Biology background.

Great.

As a pro life person I find abortion a crude method of birth control.

Sorry to sound “one side of the fence” on this but its just me I guess.

In past times with limited access to birth control, education, morning after pill etc abortion was probably a viable option, however now with these option in place it should be lowered in terms of the cut off time.

Edit above

So, what’s your informed opinion on her proposal then?

EDIT: @bwaarp

Ah, that lovely phrase “pro-life” – by implication, putting anyone who disagrees in the “anti-life” category.

My opinion is that in this one case, abortion should be allowed until the 187th trimester

It’s his personal view rather than that of his party (I hope!) and will never become law.

He’s a perfect example of how you’re not entitled to your opinion if you’re an idiot.

Are they trying to divert attention from some bad news due out today?

I know they want to boost the opportunities for small business to flourish, but forcing abortions into the back streets seems like a crappy place to start. Like most pro lifers, Hunt is a tube, but sadly i believe in free speech, so I’ll have to lump the shite they spout.

I think they should raise the limit to about eighteen years .It may help rid some estates of… umm, problems

Ah, that lovely phrase “pro-life” – by implication, putting anyone who disagrees in the “anti-life” category.

Der! Of course! If you’re ‘pro-life’ then of course everyone else who is opposed to your position is ‘anti-life’, at least as far as the pro-life person sees it.

Halving to 12 weeks is a bad idea on the basis that there is no evidence that the individual is viable at that age.

Given a significant number of abortion services have been shown as unable or unwilling to follow existing abortion laws , that despite the leaps forward in contraception and safe sex, the number of abortions has increased tenfold since abortion was legalised, and that half the premature babies born at the current cut off point of 24 weeks survive, then perhaps looking again at the legal position is a good idea.

Also worth noting that the current limit was reduced form the previous limit of 28 weeks in 1990 due to advances in science that increased the survival rates of premature babies, and that there have been further improvements since then.

As a pro life person I find abortion a crude method of birth control.

And what about where its not used as ‘birth control’?

While normally I’d wish that he kept his ‘personal’ opinions to himself, on this subject I’m glad he’s made public his thoughts – so we know exactly where he stands 🙄 , not fit for office in a modern society.

12 Weeks is stupid as most issues would not be detected until at last that time point. I agree it project should be lowered due to the increase in life expectancy of very prem babies. But that low is stupid and its ironic that his name is accurate rhyming slang.,

Interesting how few abortions a change in the law to even twelve weeks would actually affect (2004 figures via wiki)

Which might be cause for his position, that the vast, vast majority of abortions take place prior to twelve weeks,

most issues would not be detected until at last that time point.

But abortions can and already take place outside the ‘normal’ 24 week limit for medical reasons, so I can’t see why that would be any different for a 12 week limit for conditions detected after that point.

First off I will declare a personal interest here. I was born in the 60’s and put up for adoption. Subsequently raised by lo0ving parents and now have a family of my own. If I had the misfortune to have been conceived 20 or 30 years later I would most likely (statistically) have been aborted. Gi9ven the choice I would rather not have been aborted.

Perhaps a few of you can reflect on that!

Aha… thats a little more interesting

This from the guardian just over a month ago:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/sep/04/jeremy-hunt-nhs-tribute-homeopathy?newsfeed=true

Diane Abbott, shadow health minister, also expressed concern at Hunt’s stance on abortion after it emerged that in 2008 he voted for the time limit on abortion to be reduced from 24 to 12 weeks.

So, long held belief, which is interesting, but you then wonder just why its made the news again this weekend…

For what its worth, I’ve had a couple of very good friends who have had abortions quite early in life as it was seen as ‘not the right time’ and very much regretted them later on, so I think anything that makes the process more robust and seen as less of an “easy way out” when people can be pressured into by family or partners, is a good thing.

Perhaps a few of you can reflect on that!

Before I was born, my mother had a miscarriage – my parents only wanted one child, so if medical care had been better maybe I wouldn’t be here – reflect on that.

The problem is there’s no fixed dividing line – now you’re not a person, now you are. It’s a sliding scale. And the people best placed to judge where on the sliding scale the cutoff should be are medical professionals and ethicists with a lot of experience in the area. Not some idiot who believes that magic water will cure diseases.

Zulu-Eleven – Member
Also worth noting that the current limit was reduced form the previous limit of 28 weeks in 1990 due to advances in science that increased the survival rates of premature babies, and that there have been further improvements since then.

Why is the age a premature baby can be kept alive relevant to the abortion age limits? It’s quite possible that in the future an artificial womb which can incubate a foetus from conception will be developed, would that mean abortion should be banned?

So, long held belief, which is interesting, but you then wonder just why its made the news again this weekend…

I don’t know, but maybe distracting attention from this has something to do with it?

Perhaps a few of you can reflect on that!

I’m reflecting on it now, and failing to see what this has to do with anything.

Its just my view and I think anyone who has an view opposing has the same right to make their case.

I am not one for marching up and down with placards, attacking people who use abortion for what they view as a viable reason.

“Pro life” for me identifies the right of an unborn child’s rights to life, its that simple.

I do not hold an “anti life” view point, that is for others to make the case for or reject that label as they see fit.

It would be interesting to record why women “choose” abortion, that is if it is a choice.

Records state that abortion has increased year on year (small drop in 2007 to 2010) and has over doubled since 1970.

We are a modern society where access to multiple forms of contraception are FREE, education is open to all, so why the massive increase in abortion rates.

In Sweden rates are massively lower, so why is that not the case here.

The rights of the unborn child should be considered, that is the only view I have.

I’m reflecting on it now, and failing to see what this has to do with anything.

I forget the term for it, but it’s one of those things that looks different from either end. It’s incredibly unlikely that I will win the lottery*, but someone wins every week.

Same thing here – I am the one out of millions of possibilities that got born, so what about all those eggs and sperm that didn’t make it? Should we also mourn those people who aren’t here?

*I’d need to buy a ticket, for a start

In Sweden rates are massively lower, so why is that not the case here.

I’m guessing much better sex education, and a government that doesn’t think attacking women is a good way to get votes.

and perhaps women in other countries view abortion not a form of birth control as we do in the UK.

Its a complex topic but I think is riddled with education and what society sees as being appropriate.

Next ……………

Maybe they only view it as a form of birth control because no-one talked to them about the other kinds of birth control.

Abortions have always happened, always will, ban them and you go back to backstreet butchery. Go back a bit and to Romans Infanticide was normal. The idea of children being sacrosanct is a very Christian idea.

No ifs no buts, banning abortion will not end abortions. Rape, Incest, abnormalities etc. there will always be those who seek abortions. Take the Irish approach and you end up in UK clinics, ban it here and your going to have people seeking abortions in Holland or Germany etc.

Then there are economic issues with having children, is it right to have kids if you can not afford them? As for saying don’t have sex until you can afford the kids that might result, that has never worked in the history of mankind and do you honestly think it can changee?

So from that standpoint the question is at what point is it reasonable to have the cut off.

Yes most abortions won’t be affected with a 12 week cut. BUT why do abortions happen late? if you can address these then maybe bringing the age down is appropriate.

Maybe twelve weeks is to soon. But what are the reasons for waiting until 24 weeks?

Should there be an option to terminate if your told there is a chance that your baby may be less than perfect?

I never had much of an opinion until we were having a baby. I had an app on the phone that showed what your baby looks like each week. It starts to look like a baby way before 24 weeks.

When our son was born he spent 5 days in the special care unit. He was a big boy of nearly 10 pounds. Despite the wires stuck on his face and chest he looked like he didn’t belong in there. There was 2 baby’s born at 23 and 24 weeks there at the same time. All over the walls there were pictures of children of various ages who were all born around the 24 week time.

You have to be pro abortion to join the debate on how many weeks. If you are anti abortion then it doesn’t matter if it’s one week or 40 weeks, you’re against it. That much is black and white.

I believe that a foetus has a heartbeat at about 12 weeks and at about 20 weeks independent life is sustainable and this appears to be the thinking behind the suggested 12 week and 24 week limits. I guess that for someone who isn’t anti abortion, the limit is set by their conscience of when it’s OK to take that life.

Bit of a cop out but, as a man, I find it very difficult to form a 100% definite opinion on the matter because I can accept that for a woman there can be many reasons why they may want to have a choice available to them (not just as a form of contraception).

I find it difficult to get my head around that anyone in our society does not understand what contraception is and where it can be obtained.

Perhaps there are cultural pressures from men who don’t want contraception, it is indeed a complex issue.

But the facts are we have had a rising rate of abortions for many many years even with free provision of multiple forms of contraception as well as morning after pills.

Statistics also show that

The Department of Health data also indicate that the proportion of all abortions that are considered repeat abortions has increased from 30% to 34% since 2000. In absolute terms, this was estimated to equate to 52,663 repeat abortions in 2000 and 64,445 in 2010.

Simply bringing the time frame down is very blunt and wont work, the issues in our society run deeper and need to be addressed.

Simply bringing the time frame down is very blunt and wont work, the issues in our society run deeper and need to be addressed.

Well said.

I find it difficult to get my head around that anyone in our society does not understand what contraception is and where it can be obtained.

Then may i suggest going and mixing in wider circles.

There are many reasons, cultural, educational, health (mental and physical) why abortions have and will happen. Yes it is sad it happens but to think that there is no need is very naive and to try and ban it will have more negative results than positive.

The only real way forward is to stop being prudish about sex, like so many things, if you try and ban it, it only becomes more attractive.

Before I was born, my mother had a miscarriage – my parents only wanted one child, so if medical care had been better maybe I wouldn’t be here – reflect on that.

Just have – completely different. If your mother hadn’t had a miscarriage the process to bring you into the world wouldn’t have started. In the case I cited it has started and is stopped – jsut pointing out that some of us are glad abortion wasn’t so prevelent!

and a government that doesn’t think attacking women is a good way to get votes.

Why is it attacking women? With a few expections (rape) women willing start a process off. Why not see it through? There are plenty of couples who can’t have children that would willingly adopt (if the process wasn’t so tortuous – but that’s another subject).

Maybe they only view it as a form of birth control because no-one talked to them about the other kinds of birth control.

Good to see we can agree on something – better all round to prevent the pregnancy in the first place.

Then how does the statistical increase year on year of abortion rates in the UK not mirrored in countries close to us, Sweden and Holland for instance

psling, the heartbeat is detectable before 8 weeks. Take it from someone who witnessed it.

Anyway, my current position of mrs deadly being 29 weeks pregnant possibly clouds my opinions on things but I think men should, in general, leave women to decide what they do and don’t do with their bodies when it comes to having babies. Whether I am pro-life or not is nobody’s business. But I’m certainly pro-choice.

But abortions can and already take place outside the ‘normal’ 24 week limit for medical reasons, so I can’t see why that would be any different for a 12 week limit for conditions detected after that point.

I suspect most post-20wk terminations will be due to “abnormality”

As things stand, a 20wk scan is pretty much the norm; hard to detect defects much below that, I believe. You then might need further imaging, amniocentesis or whatever after than AND then you need to give parents time to make a considered decision.

Currently, decision to terminate after 24wk is (edit: only allowed for one of) several reasons, the “abnormality” side of things requiring a significant disability after birth. It’s left to docs to decide what “significant” actually means – our local place don’t, for example, do Downs etc after 24wk and would only terminate in circumstances where the paediatricians would be comfortable in not providing active medical care if a child were to be born in the same situation without prior warning. Other centrs might define downs as significant. What’s definitely true is that amnio or other investigation are necessary to give a strong indication of presence of Downs.

It’s unfair on parents (and hospitals) to force that investigative and decision-making process into a smaller window whilst expecting clinicians to define “significance” locally.

IMO

Also IMO: Bloke’s a tit and I imagine already has pretty much discredited himself in the eyes of most of the health service

BUT why do abortions happen late?

Gender selection. Health reasons (baby). Health reasons (mother). Changes of circumstances (parent/s relationships). Changes of circumstances (parent/s lifestyle). Etc..

All you need to decide is which may be acceptable to you… 😯

Gender selection.

This is one i find interesting, there are in some communities pressures to have a child of a certain sex, which would suggest no one should be allowed to know the sex of the baby, But there are also certain genetic issues that can be weeded out by aborting certain sex embryos which suggests that you should have the option…

It’s my understanding that health professionals and experts in the field agreed the 24 week limit based on the facts, those facts haven’t changed. I think trying to force a woman to have a baby they don’t want because you’re “pro” life is an infringement of a persons rights and an attitude that belongs in the past. As the facts show most late term abortions are performed for medical reasons.

routine selection and abortion of a malformed fetus is a dark place to go.

Eugenics by a different name ?

Science is advancing without open public debate in my view.

How far are we away from pre selecting a fetus based on a parents “preferences”

Its a dark science in my view.