Gore-Tex is a Marketing Gimmick

Another interesting video from Ryan F9.  I’ve bought a lot of Goretex over the years and I’ve always been a little disappointed in its performance, especially its claimed breathability.  Seems like a lot of people, I’ve been a victim of clever marketing.

Key takeaway – it’s breathable OR waterproof, not breathable AND waterproof.  It can do both things, but not at the same time.  So if it’s raining, and you are under exertion, you will still boil in the bag and sweat like a squaddie in a spelling test.  Some other interesting stuff about other membranes which work better and some very sharp practices by Gore.

This is why my waterproof is a Decathlon boil in the bag type thing.. When i’m out riding, i’m sweating, there’s no level of breathable that can allow for the amount i sweat.. So i either just accept the rain, or boil in the bag… it’s that simple for me.

Imwas, but when I looked at the numbers decades ago it seemed fairly clear that Sympatex was better in every way …..

Except the most important one: the name.

Just like Sprayway versus Berghaus there was no way a brand that sounder like one of Barbie’s horses was going to win against the number of glutteral consonants in Gore Tex or Berghaus

🤩

Ryan F9

Who?

When it was the only game in town, it was a revelation. Moving from neoprene  to Goretex was an amazing experience.  First test was a wet day on Sgùrr na Ciche and some improvement.  40 years later, it would be disappointing if there were not better stuff about. It’s a long time since I wore any Goretex.  Some of the kit in that time was similar, most better than that first green Berghaus cag.

Ryan F9

Who?

He’s a YouTube motorbikerist who to me at least, has always come across as arrogant as F.
Don’t generally watch him.

I think maybe the, ‘another interesting video from’ might be because we had one the other week from him about why motorcycles cost the same as mountainbikes.

Who?

Canadian youtuber mostly doing motorcycle content with a science/humour spin.  There was a video of his posted on here a week or two ago which prompted some interest which asked why mountain bikes cost the same as motorbikes.

Edit: beaten to it, though I don’t see the arrogance personally

It’s not the miracle fabric it’s made out to be when used in a jacket, in my experience. But I’ve never bought one at close to RRP, so it’s not an issue in that sense. I buy them for fit, design and quality – and usually that means Gore-Tex is the fabric specced
I do find Gore-Tex is really effective in walking boots though, certainly for approach shoes/mid-boots.

The Gore-Tex patents expired years ago*, but the company did a good job of building the brand while they had a monopoly and their expanded ptfe membrane was the best solution**. Now they licence the trade mark, which they have looked after quite well in terms of not lettig it be used on badly made stuff. But it appears other types of fabric perform a bit better these days

* the main ones anyhow

** the classic way to build a lasting business out of a transitory technological advantage, see also Dolby Laboratories

I feel so ripped off with the Goretex boots that keep my feet dry and warm on the bike in winter! And the Goretex trainers that I run in and don’t get wet feet running through the woods through puddles and wet tracks! They do exactly what I bought them for, what rip off!
I won’t be watching the click-bait vid 😛

“I won’t be watching the click-bait vid”

In that case you missed out on some good stuff, but to summarise the advertising tag-line is wrong and should be;
Breathable OR Waterproof
There, now you can continue feeling smug about your waterproof boots and trainers 😉

desperatebicycle
Free Member
I feel so ripped off with the Goretex boots that keep my feet dry and warm on the bike in winter! And the Goretex trainers that I run in and don’t get wet feet running through the woods through puddles and wet tracks! They do exactly what I bought them for, what rip off!
I won’t be watching the click-bait vid 😛

Sounds like you should’ve. All the video is saying is that there are other options out there that will do the same job for less, especially as modern Gore-Tex is a knock-off of the old knock-offs, you’ll just struggle in your name dropping competition

Goretex/membranes work – it’s just the DWR coating that is required doesn’t work well/for long nowadays since the environmental persistent chemicals were removed from it.

I can’t stand goretex or any other waterproof membrane in boots.  My feet just end up in a bath of sweat.  I had to import some merrils without a membrane from the US for warm weather walking

Yep, it’s down to if it works for you. I ride with people who swear by it for jackets, but they clearly can’t be sweating. I’m drenched by the time I’ve tightened my shoes up.

since the environmental persistent chemicals were removed from it.

Most have just swapped to slightly yes toxic variants, eg short chain CFCs rather than long chain.

It can be waterproof and breathable but there are lots of factors suche as the dwr coating allowing beading and run off. The relative humidity inside and outside the jacket, temperature and…..lots of things I’ve long since forgotten.

For mid to high intensity physical movement nothing will not be boil in a bag if its job is to try and keep you dry from the rain.

Ive never thought to myself that a wet jacket should remain breathable. That well beyond the realms of feasibility. Did I miss something here?

I wore sealskins AND goretex boots yesterday (it was wet). My feet remained pretty dry and un-sweaty inside.

Did I miss something here?

You can make money with click-bait YT videos, pick a big brand and then slag it off as a ‘big reveal’ and lots of people will watch ads embedded in your video..

Works well for me and seems to be more durable than their competitors.

Goretex boots and socks have transformed winter riding for me.

Op here.  I do get that the thread title is a little click baity, but it’s a C&P of the video title, not my words. I’ve used Goretex for decades and was in the army in the early 1980s when issued waterproofs changed from nylon to Gotetex. They were definitely an improvement. But over the years I’ve worn it for hillwalking, soldiering, motorcycling, running and mountain biking. With very mixed results. I find it’s good in boots and socks, mediocre in jackets and worse than useless in gloves.
I must have tried ten or more pairs of Gotetex gloves and not one has survived more than a couple of heavy down pours before letting water in.

I posted the video for interest. I think it makes some good points about clever marketing and our gullibility as consumers (including mine). I get that people have different experiences but I do chuckle when people slag content off then admit that they haven’t even watched it.

You can make money with click-bait YT videos, pick a big brand and then slag it off as a ‘big reveal’ and lots of people will watch ads embedded in your video..

To be fair, you make this guy sounds like another Lewis Buchanan but he’s actually put some work in to the background, demonstrations, etc. He’s also not saying Gore-Tex is bad, just that it’s no better than some others

You can make money with click-bait YT videos, pick a big brand and then slag it off as a ‘big reveal’ and lots of people will watch ads embedded in your video..

Are you implying some kind of marketing gimmick?

😀

From a marketing perspective, GT is a brilliant example of a trusted brand. Most people know what they’re getting, or at least that it’s “a thing to look for” in a jacket.

Yeah, it might not be the absolute best, but it’s gonna work pretty well and the buyer won’t need to delve into tons of research to work out which membrane is actually best for them.

Personally, I have other waterproof jackets that are better and worse than my GT one – but I couldn’t tell you what membrane any of them use.

I’ve always preferred to not wear waterproofs if I can avoid it, they’re not magic, just slightly better than plastic bag jackets! Definitely worse at wetting out these days which is what stops any breathability, the only goretex I wear regularly is a shakedry bike jacket that actually functions pretty well although I still get a bit sweaty. It’s a shame Gore have stopped making the fabric though…

I saw this yesterday because I’m a Fortnine subscriber. There’s no one else making interesting content about motorcycles at their level with their production values. The stories they tell go way beyond the usual “I got this new toy and it’s a game changer” type shit that everyone else does.

I also didn’t know anything about the history of Gore-Tex or their bullish business practices. I also didn’t know that Gore-Tex isn’t really Gore-Tex anymore.

I have noticed (since I started shopping for motorbike clothing) that you can usually buy 2 identical versions of a jacket or trousers from a manufacturer and the Gore-Tex one is twice the price. Now I won’t even consider paying the extra charge.

So yes, excellent value for a free video.

Said it for years. None of them breath anywhere near enough under any level of exertion. As a runner they are a waste of time. I do prefer waterproof boots however. Yes you get damp feet but preferable to soaking feet constantly dipped in freshly freezing water/bog.

I also didn’t know that Gore-Tex isn’t really Gore-Tex anymore.

Variations on a theme, still expanded PTFE membranes, but they’ve been refining it for decades. There’s also so much more than just the membrane, how it’s bonded to fabrics etc.

their bullish business practices

I would say excellent brand management, they had an ok technology, but almost perfect marketing and brand management leading to the point where the GTX logo commands a massive price hike in the market, but for good reason: there are no duff GTX branded products out there, every product is approved by the Hive and anything sub standard is rejected.

Dyson would be another example, mediocre technology but excellent branding. £500 for a hair dryer anyone?

There was a good obituary in the NYT for Robert Gore: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/25/science/robert-gore-dead.html

I would say excellent brand management, they had an ok technology, but almost perfect marketing and brand management leading to the point where the GTX logo commands a massive price hike in the market, but for good reason: there are no duff GTX branded products out there, every product is approved by the Hive and anything sub standard is rejected.

Dyson would be another example, mediocre technology but excellent branding. £500 for a hair dryer anyone?

I don’t think those are the practices he means. More the, “not using our stuff on that jacket? We’re pulling your licence so you can’t do any Gore-Tex kit” approach that’s under investigation

Wait…How is it that mountain bikers – of all folks, haven’t known this for years? We all know that if you do the sort of high intensity exercise that Gore-Tex can’t cope with; it err…doesn’t work. How is anything in that video a surprise to anyone here?

How is anything in that video a surprise to anyone here?

Have you watched it?

So yes, excellent value for a free video.

Un-ironically F9 on my keyboard is the shortcut for fast-forward.

I think I stumbled across his channel a while ago and concluded he’s just another shouty youtuber, there is no nuance on this matter, just my opinion, disagree with me in the comments to feed the algorithm.

More the, “not using our stuff on that jacket? We’re pulling your licence so you can’t do any Gore-Tex kit” approach that’s under investigation

Sounds dubious given nearly every outdoor brand with GTX products (that I know of) also uses other membranes in waterproof jackets in their range eg Rab uses 3 or 4 different types IIRC: GTX, Pertex Shield, their own one in their Kinetic jackets, and probably another one….

it err…doesn’t work

Well it works exactly as specified, just if you sweat at a rate greater than the fabric can emit, you’ll still get damp. Like buying a car with a top speed of 100mph and they saying ‘it doesn’t work’ because you wanted to drive at 110mph.

I would say excellent brand management, they had an ok technology, but almost perfect marketing and brand management leading to the point where the GTX logo commands a massive price hike in the market, but for good reason: there are no duff GTX branded products out there, every product is approved by the Hive and anything sub standard is rejected.

Salomon springs to mind, how have they been allowed to become so poor and still be badged GTX?

Gortex does what it does. Unlike that guy (by the look of it) some of us remember what life was like before breathable fabrics were widespread. I can assure you, it was definitely not as good.

So Goretex and other fabrics are a huge improvement. If your issue is with the marketing material, then, whatever. That’s what marketing is like.

We all know that if you do the sort of high intensity exercise that Gore-Tex can’t cope with; it err…doesn’t work

It does WORK in that it transports vapour from inside your jacket to outside it. You may produce more moisture than the jacket can shift, you get damp. This is obvious if you think about it for a moment. It’s like pouring a pint of water into a half pint glass and then complaining that the glass doesn’t work because now your feet are wet.

Sounds dubious

Is that shorthand for absolute bollocks? 😂

https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/apparel-accessories/shimano-series-lsg-2022/SH-MW702.html

vs

https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/apparel-accessories/shimano-series-lsg-2022/SH-MW501.html

Key takeaway – it’s breathable OR waterproof, not breathable AND waterproof. It can do both things, but not at the same time

Ftfy.

Is that shorthand for absolute bollocks?

Given it’s demonstrably false, yes, total and absolute bollocks…

Ftfy.

Not really, GTX with a good DWR is both until the DWR finally wets out, which can be quite a decent time. I have a TNF Point Five jacket with excellent DWR (probably highly toxic) and it is just amazing in the rain. I’ve never washed it as I am very reluctant to loose any of the DWR.

I watched half of the vid. He doesn’t really know what he’s talking about.

Why don’t we just use DWR without a membrane? Well why don’t you go and try that out see how you get on mate? I have and so have a lot of other people.

If you think you’re better off with a wooly jumper and a binbag – go right ahead and do that. You may not like the results. We’ve been there, it was not as good.

Expecting things to be perfect based on lack of understanding and then whinging when they aren’t – that really pisses me off.

Have you watched it?

Yes,

I’ve known that it can do “or” but not “and” for years now, mostly because @BWD on this very site has been patiently pointing that out to everyone who cared to read his posts on every “what jacket?” thread since ohhh, about the dawn of time, and I think I’ve known about their sharp practices for a while as well – Although I’ll admit that’s not widely known.

As they guy in the video points out, mostly this is on us, Gore-tex has become a word that everyone uses (including me) when they talk about waterproofing without really thinking about it.

I’ll have a watch later on but my experience with Gore compared to other makes of membrane is that Gore is noticably better at breathing and being waterproof.

However I’ve never tried a waterproof jacket that is as breathable as regular clothing so only wear them when it’s raining or when I’m likely to get wet and just accept getting warm and a bit sweaty. 

Take marketing chat with a hefty pinch of salt.