Gaza

So if Netanyahu is ousted, will that mean a swift end to the bombardment of Gaza and an end to the violent and coercive displacement of people from their homes?

(which has been happening since the state of Israel was founded in 1948)

Furthermore, how has Netanyahu and Israel in general bolstered such consistent international support, despite regular violations of international law?

“Chief Rabbi Yitzhak Yosef has said, “If you force us to go to the army, we’ll all move abroad” and is speaking for 12% of the population.”

Would the other 88% of the Israeli population be very upset about that?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-new-state-budget-favors-haredim-and-hurts-them/

https://www.timesofisrael.com/are-haredi-political-parties-standing-in-the-way-of-their-communitys-prosperity/

^^

Is this the group who are excluded from military service and spend their time reading their holy scripture?

When Isreal was founded they made up a very small percentage of the population, something like 3-5%. Now they are the fastest growing group within Israel.

Are they not also the least Zionist group is Isrealis?

I’m someone who is determinedly “anti-religon” (of any flavour) so I don’t understand some of the context/history around religion, history, wars and occupation in the Middle East.

Can anyone suggest some unbiased, factual reading to bring me up-to-speed?

I’d love to know:

Does the Jewish faith pre-date Christianity?

If so, what are the main differences between the three main faiths? (Jewish, Christianity, Islam)

Who has “ruled” the areas now called Israel and Palestine since the fall of the Roman Empire?

(I’m a product of the English junior CofE/Comp school system from 40+ years ago who had zero interest in religion or history – all I really know is the Mary popped baby Jesus out in 0000 AD in Bethlehem whilst the Romans were in charge and, from other threads here, I seem to remember that Islam started around 600 AD but I have no other context or knowledge of the history of the area)

Does the Jewish faith pre-date Christianity?

yes- Jesus was a Jew. The first bit of the Christian Bible “Old Testament “‘is the Jewish Torah.

If so, what are the main differences between the three main faiths? (Jewish, Christianity, Islam)

can’t say what all the main differences are- Islam recognise Jesus, but think he is a prophet not the son of God cos that’s blasphemous. They all believe in the same god – referred to as Abrahamic the character Abraham is in all 3 religious texts.

Not sure on Jews view of Jesus- probably don’t rate him as his teachings are a bit contra and in theory are the end of Judaism.

Part of their persecution through the ages by Christians has been because they crucified him. The term Messiah that’s applied to Jesus in Christianity means anointed one/saviour in Hebrew. Jewish prophecy told of a great leader that would unite the tribes/rebuild the Jerusalem temple etc. just before JC there was a Jewish guerilla fighter that harassed the Romans (no, not Brian) and he was referred as the messiah as they thought he would free them from Rome.

Don’t think  the Romans really  left – the Roman Empire of  Julius Caesar et al became the Roman Catholic Church with the Pope in charge of the killing and excess instead of an  Emperor. Part of the popes title Pontiflex Maximus is taken from ancient  Rome.

Then Islam swept the area and built mosques etc hence the Crusades  to kick out the Muslims out of “our holy site”

at some stage possibly after WWI and the fall of the Ottoman Empire,the English got involved in occupation (as is their wont).

Jewish People had been fleeing to a Palestine since the late 1800s due to persecution. There had been some tension but under ottoman rule it was contained . There had been calls for a Jewish State even before the end of WWII.  Tensions grew after and Jews & Arabs were in conflict. This was while England still had control so were overseeing both sides. I think Jewish agitators killed some English soldiers. When the UN Announcement in 1947(?) came to divide the area, Jews vs Arabs,  England walked away & it kicked off and set in train the current state of affairs.

im not an expert btw, just an interest in history and a lot of it was covered in my school.

Are they not also the least Zionist group is Isrealis?

To over simplify, they thought that they and their faith were safest in Europe, so were not Zionists at all. And then Europe proved them wrong and they were all but wiped out, and those remaining hove mostly since changed their mind about the need need for Israel… where their numbers, teachings and way of life have now expanded greatly.

The majority now think of Israel in practical (positive) terms… but not as an article of faith. A minority do consider the timing of its creation wrong (too early), and those who sought to create it wrong (because of claims by some Zionists about a divine right that they consider blasphemous), and campaign against it. These campaigners are noisy enough to get a lot of attention in the USA and elsewhere… but don’t confuse that noise for numbers.

Thanks @FB-ATB. Very useful!

Next dumb questions:

What is “Zion”? Just a general term for home land for Jews??

Don’t think  the Romans really  left – the Roman Empire of  Julius Caesar et al became the Roman Catholic Church with the Pope in charge of the killing and excess instead of an  Emperor. Part of the popes title Pontiflex Maximus is taken from ancient  Rome.

Probably better framed with the context of being ruled by the Byzantines rather than Rome, Theodosius was the last Emperor of a unified east/west Empire, ended in 395.

I’m actually not sure how much influence the Eastern Orthodox church had on the region (the schism being 11th century).

at some stage possibly after WWI and the fall of the Ottoman Empire,the English got involved in occupation (as is their wont).

Britain didn’t wait, this is where TE Lawrence’s story is, the Arab Revolt against the Ottomans, leading straight into Sykes Picot/Balfour. An example of an ally being promised independence and that promise not being worth anything.

When Isreal was founded they made up a very small percentage of the population, something like 3-5%. Now they are the fastest growing group within Isreal

I have a cousin who lives in Isreal. We were chatting just after the Hamas attack about military service in the future for her two boys and she was very anti them going in the army and said “there’s always some religious thing you can pull to avoid going in the army” so perhaps that’s a reason for the growth and why more secular Israelis are pissed off with the orthodox crew.

Not sure on Jews view of Jesus

Mainstream Jewish view is – Mleh*. There is however, the Jews for Jesus. which is y’know, bit weird.

*Official Rabbinic perspective – True story.

im not an expert btw, just an interest in history and a lot of it was covered in my school.

An English school I assume rather than British 🙄

Part of their persecution through the ages by Christians has been because they crucified him

I’m going to demonstrate my ignorance here…but didn’t the Romans crucify Jesus?

An English school I assume rather than British 🙄

why so? Yes I was taught in a school in England, but I’m Welsh- the first country the English invaded and subjugated and will probably be the last to regain independence from them if ever. So whenever I talk about colonialism I prefer to put the English as the main drivers.

Does the Jewish faith pre-date Christianity?

Yes. The old testament is some of the Jewish religious texts with the new testament being the Christian bolt on (its a bit more messy than that around how the different books were selected but works at a high level).

If so, what are the main differences between the three main faiths? (Jewish, Christianity, Islam)

In terms of actual practice it gets very lengthy especially since you then have all the differences inside those faiths but at a basic level.
Judaism is still waiting for its Messiah to fulfil the various prophecies (again simplistic and some sects disagree).
Christianity claims Christ was that Messiah.
Islam claims although Christ was an important prophet it is Mohammed who was the final and most important prophet.

Who has “ruled” the areas now called Israel and Palestine since the fall of the Roman Empire?

After the fall of the western Roman Empire the Eastern (aka the Byzantines) continued to rule for a couple of hundred years.
It was then ruled by a variety of Islam caliphates with a brief interlude of Crusader domination until the Mamluks captured the region and ruled for several hundred years before the Ottoman empire captured it in the 15th century. They kept power until WW1 at which point it came under British control for the next 30 years or so.

but didn’t the Romans crucify Jesus?

Yeah but the were ‘forced’ to by the crowd – “Welease Woderwick” – that bit. It was convenient for the Jewish authorities to get rid, and it was easier to use the Womans to do their dirty work.

So y’know, I’d imagine that didn’t go down well.

Good old religion, causing carnage around the world for millennia.

Would the other 88% of the Israeli population be very upset about that?

That isn’t really the point. Benjamin Netanyahu only holds power because of ultra-orthodox support and, surprisingly, the Knesset went into Spring recess yesterday (8th) until May 19th, which kicks the can down the road. If an agreement can’t be reached after recess there is potential for political upheaval and a change to the right-wing coalition by June

The war is currently being fought on several fronts with fighting in Gaza, raids on Syria and clashes with Yemen (Houthi), Lebanon (Hezbollah) and in the occupied-West Bank and needs military personnel.

The events of Oct 7th saw 3000 Haredi men enlist in non-combat roles as drivers, S&R and emergency services, which was unprecedented and may signal a change in attitude. During WW2 Private First Class Desmond Thomas Doss won two Bronze Stars and a Medal of Honor for his bravery in Okinawa, Guam and Leyte, despite never carrying a weapon, so, yes, Israel may be poorer without the Haredi population.

Good old religion, causing carnage around the world for millennia.

You mean people, right? Good old people, causing carnage around the world for millennia.

“You mean people, right? Good old people, causing carnage around the world for millennia.”

Where once a dispute could be solved by the volume and intensity of grunts, or basic physical strength, over time the art of war has evolved to encompass the whole of society, from mass media spewing propaganda to justify and instigate the invasion of entire countries half the world away, to mass production of weapons and ammunition, which need to be used to keep the production lines running.

The share prices of many corporate giants rely on constant war and help to prop up the constant economic growth to which we’re so accustomed; whilst at one end, it employs people and feeds their families, at the other, it mutilates and destroys life from newborn infants all the way through to grandmothers, who’ve seen their families grow, only to be torn apart on the whims of men in suits.

Hey ho, it’s just collateral damage at the end of the day and let’s not forget, between the valuable data gained from Israel’s weapons program and the leverage gained on securing valuable resources, human lives are plentiful and not nearly as important as the profit they stand in the way of.

 I prefer to put the English as the main drivers.

Rather assumes that there were no non English people at the heart of government….like, I dunno….David Lloyd-George, for example.  I assume your history lessons didn’t include the Balfour Declaration 🙄

while I applaud your constant efforts to confuse everyone with secret cabals and shady conspiracies.  It’s still just people.

After her family has been mutilated and killed, how does the Grandmother (who has seen her homeland constantly shrink, before being walled in and kept under military blockade) go about retaliating against those who encourage and supply Israel’s constant need for heavy weaponry?

Anyone ever seen a prehistoric cave painting depicting man on man combat? It was the advent of private property that led to wars, slavery and exploitation.

Whilst a lot of this debate is complex, there  is one thing which is not – there is no excuse for genocide.

Just checking in and making sure everything is going ok. Reminder to those new to this thread. Read my OP before you contribute to this topic.

I’m people and I’m pretty sure I’ve not carnaged anything.

Silly, reductionist perspective.

Anyone ever seen a prehistoric cave painting depicting man on man combat?

Don’t need a cave painting, got Otzi.  (despite the ongoing studies, most researchers now think he was killed/murdered) The idea that we’ve emerged from some idyllic primitive state of love and friendship to war because of our love of ‘stuff’ is probably for the birds.

Anyone ever seen a prehistoric cave painting depicting man on man combat? It was the advent of private property that led to wars, slavery and exploitation.

That is a claim worthy of its own thread.
The level of violence in ancient societies, especially hunter gatherer, is unclear and there are strong advocates for both it was a lovely place vs it was extremely violent.
Certainly there is evidence for conflict going back way into prehistory. Skeletons with weapon damage (including arrow/spear heads still embedded) and there are actually some cave paintings showing people pierced by either arrows or darts although without context of why.

That isn’t really the point. Benjamin Netanyahu only holds power because of ultra-orthodox support and, surprisingly, the Knesset went into Spring recess yesterday (8th) until May 19th, which kicks the can down the road. If an agreement can’t be reached after recess there is potential for political upheaval and a change to the right-wing coalition by June

Netanyahu has been PM for nearly 17 years, so the notion that the current crisis is the result of some aberration of the system, and Israel is full of lovely peace-loving folk is … shall we say … unrealistic.

“there are actually some cave paintings showing people pierced by either arrows or darts although without context of why”

Could it be something along the lines of

‘I am heavily armed and this is my cave now, take your family and belongings (I’ll keep what you can’t carry) and go out into the cold’

Anyone ever seen a prehistoric cave painting depicting man on man combat? It was the advent of private property that led to wars, slavery and exploitation.

I mean, come on now.

And your point is? I’ve seen no evidence that Otzi died as a result of warfare but happy to be enlightened.

Wouldn’t it be amusing if this thread got completely derailed into a discussion about something completely different.

Keep it up, we’re nearly there!

🤣

Ötzi didn’t die from natural causes

Aye, if everyone veers off course sufficiently, no one has to fumble for an excuse for genocide…

“So whenever I talk about colonialism I prefer to put the English as the main drivers.”

There’s no getting away from the Welsh, Scottish and Irish involvement in British colonialism. Balfour himself is a great example of it.

It would be a bit odd to suggest that the Welsh are in a similar, or even sensibly comparable, state of oppression to the Palestinians.

The point is to argue that people have always fought wars, are greedy, possessive individualists etc is to make light of contemporary wars as part of the human essence. There is much anthropological literature on ‘primitive communism’ that rejects the imposition of bourgeois values on to ancient societies. That’s not to say that ancient societies didn’t have ritual sacrifices but that is different to warfare. There’s nothing ‘natural’ about warfare in Gaza or anywhere else.

 I’ve seen no evidence that Otzi died as a result of warfare

Ah, warfare? Right, well you said man-on man-combat to begin with. The further back in the past you go, the more it’s unknowable really isn’t it? Is there evidence? A bit yeah, but opinion is (unsurprisingly) divided. Even if you found a body (Otzi for instance) old wounds can look like sacrifice, and so on. Even bodies that look like  (at first examination) they’ve been part of a war buried in a mass grave as late as the late Anglo Saxon may be in fact the result of a bit of early ‘ethnic cleansing’ The fact that you can’t often tell something as basic as the sex of a skeleton just adds to the confusion. So I don’t think you can say with certainty that war didn’t happen, but there’s also variable proof to say that it did.

Given that we’re talking Homo Sapiens, and it seems to be a part of our psyche, I’m going with “it’s likely” but whatever, I think projecting your own 21stC definitions; “private property” “slavery” and so on  onto ancient people is probably unhelpful.

These days, warfare is something taxpayers subsidize in other countries