Gaza

“The national pride and euphoria that followed the Six-Day War are temporary and will bring us from proud, rising nationalism to extreme, messianic, ultranationalism. The third stage will be brutality and the final stage will be the end of Zionism.”……..Yeshayahu Leibowitz  1903-94

Yeshayahu Leibowitz was an orthodox Jew and Zionist. He was a professor of biochemistry, organic chemistry, and neurophysiology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, as well as a prolific writer on Jewish thought and western philosophy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshayahu_Leibowitz

I think we can safely say that we are at the third stage of Yeshayahu Leibowitz’s prophecy. And Netanyahu is driving Israel to the final stage.

Yeshayahu Leibowitz also called Israel’s behaviour in Occupied Palestine “Judeo-Nazi”.

Really ? It is an IDF propaganda video !

Yeah no thanks, usual guff and utter bollox masquerading as truth from the most “moral” army in the world

Just for a little clarity on my view… yes I know it’s propaganda and what they want to show with that video, note I called it propaganda and pointed out their blatant hypocrisy.  By “I have no reason to disbelieve this” I did not of course mean that I swallowed the entire video and believe Israel are acting properly etc… Rather that the main points they make about Hezbollah hiding amongst the civilian population and having the stated aim of destroying Israel are true. Just because some truths get twisted or even hidden amongst other acts does not make them less true, and I also don’t like the fact that many here, seeing Israel as the bad guys, seem to automatically disbelieve anything that comes from them and there is something of an unwillingness to see both sides.

Do Hezbollah keep their stuff in sophisticated underground tunnels? Yes. Do they also keep some stuff above ground in built up areas, using human shields or just not caring? Yes. Why can’t both be true? Main storage below ground and quick-access stockpiles above ground near where the fighters live, for one reason.

What Israel is doing is horrific and there’s no doubt about that. Up to a point though, they sometimes have no choice… I’d hate to be a commander on the ground, seeing a missile launcher or whatever in a built up area and having choice of a) stopping it, and possibly killing some nearby innocents or b) leaving it, and possibly having it killing some of your own.

Please don’t read that as me excusing what they are doing. I’m not the best at making my point clear at the best of times, this was written at 3am, hopefully it makes sense overall!

And if you wish to just how thunderfu*king ignorant and Islamophobic certain members of the US Senate can be you’d be hard pushed to better this

That’s insane. I really feel for the poor woman, she did well to hold it together in the face of that, especially at the end when he’s leaving and clearly ignoring her. What a feeling of hopelessness she must have. At least the audience seemed to be on her side.

Do they also keep some stuff above ground in built up areas, using human shields or just not caring? Yes. Why can’t both be true? Main storage below ground and quick-access stockpiles above ground near where the fighters live, for one reason.

Both can’t be true because there is no logical reason at all why Hezbollah would store a long range cruise missile in someone’s flat, as claimed in the IDF propaganda video, for quick access.

Hezbollah’s missiles are stored deep in the mountains where they are safe from Israeli strikes and can be quickly launched.

How quick do you think that they can launch a long ranch cruise missile from residential apartments? Especially if the lifts aren’t working and they have to carry them down the stairs?

Storing missiles that can hit Israel in people’s homes provides no protection whatsoever for the missiles. Everyone knows the IDF don’t care how many civilians might be near a target. So there is no such thing as “human shields” as far as the IDF is concerned, only the Palestinians which they themselves use as human shields.

With regards to Gaza the IDF, the Israeli government, and the Israeli media, bang on endlessly about what they call Hamas’s “terror tunnels”, which sounds so sinister. Hezbollah’s “terror tunnels” are far more extensive than anything in Gaza, why doesn’t the IDF propaganda video mention them once when discussing Hezbollah’s missile arsenal?

The answer is obvious…the whole purpose of that video was to justify the killing of innocent civilians and to prepare the world for thousands more deaths of innocent people at the hands of the IDF. The truth is inconvenient and best ignored as far as zionists are concerned.

I also don’t like the fact that many here, seeing Israel as the bad guys

It’s not just here I’m afraid, it is right across the globe. Throughout the world Israel is seen as a genocidal apartheid regime which murders men, women, and children, (although mostly women and children) on a daily basis.

When people commit crimes against humanity and war crimes on a daily basis it should come as no surprise to anyone that they are seen as “the bad guys” and everyone is sceptical of anything they say. The honest war criminal is not a recognised phenomena.

and I also don’t like the fact that many here, seeing Israel as the bad guys, seem to automatically disbelieve anything that comes from them

Did your parents ever tell you about the boy who cried “wolf”? Maybe if the Israelis didn’t have a solid track record of lying, folks might believe them.

You don’t have to have good guys in this scenario, other than those who are caught up in the conflicts with no way out.

Israeli military says Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah killed in overnight strike on Beirut

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c981g8mrl8lt

Maybe if the Israelis didn’t have a solid track record of lying, folks might believe them.

Maybe if the travelling community didn’t have a solid track record of stealing anything that isn’t nailed down and some stuff that is, people wouldn’t be as hostile to their appearance in the local area.

Maybe if Pakistani men didn’t have a solid track record of abusing underage white girls, the ongoing disquiet in areas like Rochdale and Rotherham wouldn’t have happened.

Maybe if black men didn’t have a solid track record of being absentee fathers, black youths wouldn’t be over-represented in the penal system.

Disclaimer: I don’t believe any of these things, I’m just trying to see where STW mods think the red line is. It clearly isn’t crossed when we make identically phrased comment about Israelis, given DrJ’s nonsense getting the thumbs up

Israeli military says Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah killed in overnight strike on Beirut

Well I’m sure that the peace loving Israeli people will be out in force protesting at this latest escalation by the widely-hated war-monger.

Disclaimer: I don’t believe any of these things, I’m just trying to see where STW mods think the red line is. It clearly isn’t crossed when we make identically phrased comment about Israelis, given DrJ’s nonsense getting the thumbs up

Clue – I am referring to Israeli official spokespersons, whereas your examples refer to a racial group as a whole. But I’m sure you actually knew that and your question was simply disingenuous.

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@drj way to undermine your own point in one post.

Do you similarly describe Islam as “the religion of peace”? If not why not?

That’s not what you posted, nor the post you were replying to, and you know it.

My post is right there on this page. No big problem for anyone to scroll up and decide if you are telling the truth or not.

Well I’m sure that the peace loving Israeli people will be out in force protesting at this latest escalation by the widely-hated war-monger.

This one? And the others where you basically say the majority are supportive? Those ones?

I was going to defend your point but you undermined yourself just about straight away.

This one? And the others where you basically say the majority are supportive? Those ones?

Err no  Theres a difference between saying that the Israeli electorate have repeatedly expressed their support for Netanyahu and saying that the Israelis as a racial entity are liars  That would be racism. Is that what you’re accusing me of?

I was going to defend your point but you undermined yourself just about straight away.

That’s life. I’ll struggle on by, though.

Do you similarly describe Islam as “the religion of peace”? If not why not?

I’m wondering at what point anyone brought Islam into the discussion?. No. Don’t try to explain.

I’m just trying to see where STW mods think the red line is.

Israelis aren’t a race and Israel is a political entity. Obviously many Israelis want to pretend that condemnation of Israel is racist, in fact Netanyahu was doing precisely that yesterday at the United Nations, but there is no reason stw mods have to go along with that nonsense.

At this point it’s obvious that Israel cares not a jot about the return of the hostages who are an inconvenience to Netanyahu and his goons in this continuing genocide, I so hope they are safe and alive and rational minds will eventually come to the negotiating table.

Quite the opposite. The swiftness with which they took out the Hezbollah leadership shows exactly why Sinwar surrounds himself with Israeli hostages.

Let’s hope Lebanon can finally free itself from Hezbollah’s malign influence.

Let’s hope Lebanon can finally free itself from Hezbollah’s malign influence.

Last I looked it’s not Hezbollah dropping bombs on Beirut apartment buildings.

At this point it’s obvious that Israel cares not a jot about the return of the hostages

I think many in Israel care a lot about the hostages, although as a psychopath Netanyahu obviously cares only about himself.

The swiftness with which they …..

Not the swiftness with which they returned the hostages eh? Netanyahu made two simple commitments in October last year, to destroy Hamas and return the hostages, he has done neither.

So why is he taking on more commitments when he hasn’t fulfilled the first two which Israel and its supporters claimed would be easy to achieve?

I’m wondering at what point anyone brought Islam into the discussion?. No. Don’t try to explain.

Because it’s the same language people use whenever a violent attack is carried out in its name. Language you seem quite comfortable using to describe the Israeli electorate.

So if it’s fine in your case presumably you think it’s fine for people to use about Islam. If not why not?

Im calling you out on this, feigning ignorance and deflecting isn’t going to make me go away so you might as well answer the question.

So if it’s fine in your case presumably you think it’s fine for people to use about Islam. If not why not?

I think it’s fine for people to describe things as what they are. I have no clue what point you imagine you’re making, but I’m struggling to see the relevance to the topic.

[Mod] polite request to keep this civil.  Thanks for your co-operation.

Jeezus there is nothing wrong with condemning Israelis anymore than there is condemning any other nation that behaves in an appalling manner. Apparently 85% of Russians support Putin, are we going to get all touchy about condemning Russian behaviour in Ukraine?

Netanyahu has overwhelming support among Israelis for the ongoing slaughter of innocent civilians, including thousands of children, in Gaza, much of the world is disgusted by this and it is perfectly acceptable to condemn Israelis for it.

Zionists keep banging on that Israel is a democracy (obviously it isn’t because no apartheid regime can ever be described as a democracy) and then suddenly and mysteriously Israelis are apparently no longer responsible for the behaviour of their government. A government whose actions in Gaza and the West Bank they overwhelmingly support.

I think many in Israel care a lot about the hostages, although as a psychopath Netanyahu obviously cares only about himself.

Well spotted, I should have made it clear I was referring to the current Israeli government and military leadership, my mistake.

Netanyahu has overwhelming support among Israelis for the ongoing slaughter of innocent civilians,

Same can be said about Hamas and Hezbollah, there are no good guys in this war. None of the warring sides are achieving much other than killing civilians and reducing the chance of any stable peace.

Same can be said about Hamas and Hezbollah

Not really because a) Hezbollah do not rule Lebanon b) There has been no election in Gaza for a very long time (look up the reasons for that) and most of all c) only one party is slaughtering tens of thousands of civilians.

there are no good guys

Obviously it depends from whose/which perspective you are looking at it. For me the good guys are the Palestinians who are trying to liberate their lands from foreign occupation, and the bad guys are those who are killing them and committing war crimes on a daily basis.

It’s really not complicated and as simple as it looks. Although for very obvious reasons zionists will suggest that it is the opposite and very complicated indeed.

the Palestinians who are trying to liberate their lands from foreign occupation

The man you quote at the top of the page, Yeshayahu Leibowitz also said that no people have a right to occupy any land

Leibowitz nonetheless evinces a Benthamite scepticism to the notion that any nation has a legal right to a land – “talk of rights is pure nonsense. No nation has a right to any land”

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A post shared by Middle East Eye (@middleeasteye)

“most moral army” etc.

The man you quote at the top of the page, Yeshayahu Leibowitz also said that no people have a right to occupy any land

Er, the guy was a commited zionist. I posted his quote because I thought his prophecy made long ago was interesting, don’t you? Here it is again.

“The national pride and euphoria that followed the Six-Day War are temporary and will bring us from proud, rising nationalism to extreme, messianic, ultranationalism. The third stage will be brutality and the final stage will be the end of Zionism”

I am perfectly happy to quote zionists if I think their comments are of interest, I have recently extensively quoted a former IDF general/military ombudsman because I consider his opinions concerning the collapse of zionist state to be both interesting and credible, it doesn’t however mean that I support them ideologically.

And to get back to your original point, of course the Palestinian people have a right to the land of Palestine, the people who don’t are the settler-colonialists who are murdering them.

I think it’s fine for people to describe things as what they are. I have no clue what point you imagine you’re making, but I’m struggling to see the relevance to the topic.

People use “religion of peace” as a prejorative for Islam, implying it is nothing of the sort, usually when an attack is carried out in its name.

You said

Well I’m sure that the peace loving Israeli people will be out in force protesting at this latest escalation by the widely-hated war-monger.

Which is implying the Israeli people as a whole are not peaceful.

It’s really very simple but you’re feigning ignorance. And you’ve consistently done so over the last few pages.

It’s fine to take a stand against Israel as an institution but to use the language you are walks right into the big obvious anti-semitism trap. There’s no need and all it does is make the rest of us look bad. So I’m calling it out for what it is, I couldn’t care less if you’re on the same side of the debate, language like yours isn’t welcome and shouldn’t be tolerated.

Which is implying the Israeli people as a whole are not peaceful.

I would like to imply that during World War 2 the Japanese people as a whole were not peaceful. Does that leave me open to accusations of racism?

Pre 1945 Japanese society was deeply unpeaceful, it was extremely violent, slaughtered an unimaginable amount of people, and treated particularly non-Japanese people appallingly – as worthless in fact.

Obviously that is no longer the situation today, on the contrary it is a perfectly civilised society which complies with accepted norms, but it was certainly the situation 80 years ago. There is nothing racist about acknowledging that.

Today Israeli society is deeply unpeaceful and treats many non Israelis in the Middle East appallingly, often as being completely worthless.

It is Israeli society and its apartheid regime that is horrendous, it has absolutely nothing to do with the ethnicity of the people. In fact Israelis, unlike say the Japanese, represent a whole variety of different ethnicities.

Which is implying the Israeli people as a whole are not peaceful.

Taking account of the mods request above, I will simply repeat – Israel is a democracy. Rule of the people, etc. How should we interpret the fact that the Israeli people have repeatedly chosen to be governed by a warmonger?

For me the good guys are the Palestinians who are trying to liberate their lands from foreign occupation

Unfortunately that’s the sort of attitude that will prolong the suffering for civilians on both sides. Israel was created nearly 80 years ago, several generations ago. The conflict will not be resolved by force on either side. Like it or not Israel is an established sovereign country.

How should we interpret the fact that the Israeli people have repeatedly chosen to be governed by a warmonger?

Democracy isn’t perfect and not even necessarily the will of the population, we had a mad corrupt and hate filled government for 14 years who were voted in 3 times. To suggest that all UK citizens were aligned with their ethos would be completely wrong.

Hezbollah do not rule Lebanon

That doesn’t help your argument, so Hezbollah are squatting in a country they have not been democratically elected to decide the fate of yet their actions have brought death and destruction down on Lebanese civilians. Same goes for Hamas, they knew the attacks last year would bring down hell on Gaza but did it anyway. I’m not defending Israel’s actions In any way either but if you play with matches and petrol you’re going to cause a fire.

Dialogue is the only way to solve this but none of the participants want that, harping back to how things were 80 years ago isn’t helpful either (not that they were great then either under British rule).

To suggest that all UK citizens were aligned with their ethos would be completely wrong.

But apparently the biggest group were, uncomfortable as that may be to acknowledge  However, evil as the Tories were/are, they didn’t drop bombs on hospitals

their actions have brought death and destruction down on Lebanese civilians.

The responsibility lies squarely with the ones pulling the trigger.

Unfortunately that’s the sort of attitude that will prolong the suffering for civilians on both sides.

What civilian suffering on both sides, are you living in some sort of parallel universe? The only civilian suffering is on the Palestinian side, they are getting slaughtered and maimed by the tens of thousands.

According to Flyingox on this thread life is great for Israeli civilians. He’s had a walk around and people are busy buying new cars, eating in restaurants, etc etc and generally just enjoying life. I’ve heard that you can go on boat trips along with Gaza coast to witness the devastation caused by the IDF.

What prolongs the violence is injustice.

You cannot have peace without justice 

The responsibility lies squarely with the ones pulling the trigger.

So you agree then that responsibility also lies with Hezbollah due to their aggressive rocket attacks into Israel. I cant think of any justification for them, they are in no way defensive, and are going to cause a response (and civilian deaths given their indiscriminate nature, they are intended to create terror).

Israel is then of course responsible for the civilian deaths it causes in Lebanon.

Defending one side versus the other in this conflict is not helpful, as I said before there are no good guys on either side.

https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/2024/09/365376/israeli-illegal-settler-leader-organizes-boat-tours-to-view-gaza-destruction-claims-gaza-will-be-jewish

Apparently 85% of Russians support Putin, are we going to get all touchy about condemning Russian behaviour in Ukraine?

According to state-controlled pollsters

A UK-based polling company reported that 36% of Russians supported military action in mid-Feb 2022 https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2022/02/europe/russia-ukraine-crisis-poll-intl/index.html

Ernie they were trying to sell plots of land in Gaza a few months ago weren’t they? All part the the Israeli total victory rhetoric which is a fantasy and prolongs the agony of everyone caught up in this.