Gaza

Really? What I find offensive is quibbling about words while people are being shot, bombed, starved, imprisoned, tortured, their houses, schools and hospitals destroyed.
Posted 7 minutes ago

Yeah, call it for what is is and appears to be – Genocide.

TBH I’ve always found that definition of antisemitism a bit weird, and I’m Jewish. If someone’s behaving like a Nazi, then they are behaving like a Nazi, whoever they are. Although on the other hand people do tend to jump towards Nazis as a comparison (as opposed to any other fascist/oppressor throughout history), precisely because of the Jewish history with the Holocaust. Therefore equating Israel with Jews. Which again is somewhat understandable, but can also be actual anti-semitism… It’s a complicated minefield. I’m starting to ramble…

Anyway, it’s nothing to do with lebensraum. Unless you think Israel wants to start taking over chunks f neighbouring countries. It’s a fight over who owns the historic land of Israel, which includes the West Bank and Gaza. Granted the definition of “historic” might be up for debate but Israel’s not really expansionist in the same way as (for a totally random example) Nazi Germany was.

I cant report the post because it’s yet another feature that doesn’t work here, hopefully the mods will have a look ( @Drac )

What do you want to report, that someone has made a reference to nazi Germany when discussing the far-right Israeli government?

Presumably you would hit the report button if someone made the comparison between Nigel Farage and the Nazis? Netanyahu makes Nigel Farage look like a cuddly liberal.

At least one senior Israeli minister has described himself as a fascist, Israel is widely considered to be an apartheid state. Your attempts to stifle people expressing their opinions of a regime which is racist and very clearly commits war crimes and crimes against humanity smacks of desperation.

If Gerald Kaufman can make a direct comparison between modern Israel and nazi Germany then so can anyone else. Or do you also want to report the video which I posted of a speech made by Kaufman from the floor of the House of Commons?

Ad Hominem is where someone starts to attack the individual rather than put forward their argument. That’s happened today and it’s the way threads like this get shut down.

This topic is contentious and understandably so. BUT, if you insult another user you will end up being banned and this thread could be shut down. If you find yourself getting angry… STOP TYPING. Step away. Come back to it later.

Thing is Hitler did go in for genocide whereas other fascist dictators like Mussolini, Salazar or Franco were awful oppressors but not quite in the same way. Israel has always been iffy about defining its borders due to its aspirations for an expansionist ‘greater Israel’ since 1948. I remember discussing this in a tutorial with Michael Clark (RUSI etc, hardly a leftwinger) in 1977, it’s nothing new. Perhaps we should tone down the hyperbole by referring to Israel ‘mowing the lawn’ (sounds quite green doesn’t it).

Anyway, it’s nothing to do with lebensraum. Unless you think Israel wants to start taking over chunks f neighbouring countries.

Well I didn’t think anyone would deny that Israeli zionists had expansionist policies, and not least when you consider how much Israel has expanded and is expanding, but apparently I was wrong.

Let’s be clear what we are talking about. Bezalel Smotrich  is a very senior Israeli cabinet minister, he is in fact the Israeli chancellor of the exchequer. He has described himself as being fascist. Don’t believe me? Google it then.

Even before things kicked off on Oct 7 last year Smotrich publicly produced a map of “Greater Israel”

Jordan condemns far-right Israeli minister over “Greater Israel” map

https://www.axios.com/2023/03/20/bezalel-smotrich-jordan-greater-israel-map-palestinians

What drew a lot of attention, however, was the map on the podium from which Smotrich spoke. It showed “Greater Israel” with Jordan and the West Bank as part of Israel’s borders.

And listen to this:

During his speech, he said there is no such thing as a Palestinian people.

Yup, that’s right, I know it sounds totally unbelievable but Smotrich claims that there is no such thing as the Palestinian people. Which of course it means that if the Palestinians don’t exist then Palestinian land cannot by definition exist. How convenient.

I believe it is totally reasonable to make comparisons with the views of the genocidal fascist Smotrich and some of the policies of the Nazis.

Smotrich is not some fringe politician, he holds one of the great offices of state in Israel, he is very much representative of the extreme far-right government of Israel.

Yes it is hard to stomach the comparison between the zionist far-right and the Nazis, in the video Gerald Kaufman doesn’t appear to find the experience particularly pleasant. But not only is reasonable to do so it also vital to make it.

this thread is getting a bit Ken Livingstone

Just a quick reminder that Israel are ****…

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/08/23/middleeast/israel-gaza-water-shortages-heatwave-crisis-intl

It seems the IDF (previously known as “the most moral army in the world”) have deemed the World Food Program a legitimate target.

“Despite being clearly marked and receiving multiple clearances by Israeli authorities to approach, the vehicle was directly struck by gunfire as it was moving toward an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) checkpoint,” the statement by the agency read.

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/08/28/middleeast/world-food-program-vehicle-hit-gunfire-gaza-intl-latam/index.html

Just a quick reminder that Israel are ****…

Deliberate targeting of civilian infrastructure is a war crime so I expect the rule of law to apply.

Ha…..like **** it will, they’ll lie….and lie….and lie….and lie….

Deliberate targeting of civilian infrastructure is a war crime so I expect the rule of law to apply.

You know that you are talking about Israel, right?

You know that you are talking about Israel, right?

You realise I was taking the piss, right?

No I hadn’t.

No I hadn’t.

Really?…….this is all getting a bit meta for me

What do you want to report, that someone has made a reference to nazi Germany when discussing the far-right Israeli government?

It wasn’t that, as you well know.

It was a remark that is very close to antisemitism, using words that were highlighted as such by at least three independent posts over a period of several hours

That you carried on defending its use after the first calling out is deliberate when you could have used other less tone-deaf words,

“Along with the huge expansion of illegal settlements (a war crime under the Geneva Convention) what we are witnessing is simply the territorial growth of Israel”

would have done the job quite adequately

At what point is it OK to start calling this a genocide?

Depends on what side of the fence wall you’re looking at

The objective one.

Thing is Hitler did go in for genocide whereas other fascist dictators like Mussolini, Salazar or Franco were awful oppressors but not quite in the same way.

Mussolini did conduct a genocide in Ethiopia/Eritrea and it was with the aim of eradicating/enslaving a population to replace them with Italian settlers. Obviously in terms of scale nothing like Germany though.

Slight derail in any case.

There’s no way Netanyahu can have any defence against collective punishment and targeting civilian infrastructure – both war crimes in their own right.

Going into the West Bank feels to me like “let’s sort this once and for all” to me – which also has a German translation that I won’t use.

Israel under Netanyahu is doing despicable things that have nothing to do with 7th October any more. If they weren’t nuclear armed and a client state of ‘the west’ the actions of the UK/US would be very different.

It was a remark that is very close to antisemitism, using words that were highlighted as such by at least three independent posts over a period of several hours

Lebensraum? I appreciate that you might not like the term, especially if you support zionism, because it has connotations with the German far-right’s quest in the 1930s for a Greater Germany, but firstly I feel it is totally appropriate because as my earlier link shows the Israeli far-right has a policy of creating a Greater Israel.

And secondly because it is not even vaguely “anti-semitic”. The policy of a Greater Israel, and the need for living space for Israelis, is an Israeli government policy and it has absolutely nothing to do with being Jewish. Plenty of Jews throughout the world are very strongly opposed to it.

In fact I consider your apparent belief that “Greater Israel” policy is somehow intrinsically Jewish to be anti-semitic.it reminds of a rally in support of Palestine that I went to recently where by far the best speaker was a Jewish guy, as is often the case, who in his speech pointed out there is nothing Jewish about apartheid.

And if that’s not the point you are trying to make then I don’t know what it is. I think we have established that if Gerald Kaufman can use parliament to make a comparison between Israeli far-right politicians and the nazis then I can do the same on a MTB forum.

Going into the West Bank feels to me like “let’s sort this once and for all” to me

Occupied West Bank does not pose any problem for the Israeli government beyond the fact that its very existence provides a basis for a Palestinian state, there is no new intifada going on in Occupied West Bank.

The Israeli government’s priority is the expansion of illegal Israeli settlements in Occupied West Bank so that it becomes less viable as a Palestinian state.

The current Israeli government is totally committed to crushing the Palestinian people. From denying them their own state to denying that they even exist – they are just “Arabs”.

From Mark’s opening post on this thread, emphasis added by me:

Before you hit that ‘Submit’ button. read what you have typed again and question yourself as to whether or not it’s a useful action to take. Will you add to the debate or will you provoke others? If it were possible I’d have a popup appear after you have hit the Submit button that says, “Are you sure you want to post that?”. So, say those words in your head BEFORE you hit that button.

I don’t know whether the equating of Israel and Nazi Germany made by some was deliberately provocative, but I feel that few people lack the self awareness not to realise that it is very provocative language.

And mainly I’m not sure it really contributes to the discussion, or is likely to change minds, rather than just entrench positions and get this thread caught up in somewhat tangential arguments.

Of course it contributes to the discussion. That is precisely why so many Jews who oppose the Israeli government equate Israel and nazi Germany.

One of the reasons that I keep banging on about Gerald Kaufman’s speech in the House of Commons is because despite being short it is extremely powerful and hard-hitting.

What makes it hard-hitting is the comparison of the the behaviour of the Israeli government and the nazis. If you took that element out of Kaufman’s speech it would lose his impetus.

Having said that I totally get that supporters of the Israeli government hate any comparisons made with the nazis,  of course they do. They obviously also hate the government being referred to as fascist, or far-right, or that their state is an apartheid state, or that it is committing genocide, or that Netanyahu is a war criminal, etc etc

Yes I get it. And yes I understand that they want to shut down criticism, a battle which they are very clearly losing.

Nurse.

seems the IDF (previously known as “the most moral army in the world”) have deemed the World Food Program a legitimate target

They also assassinate donkeys pulling carts laden with flour.

They obviously also hate the government being referred to as fascist, or far-right, or that their state is an apartheid state, or that it is committing genocide, or that Netanyahu is a war criminal, etc etc

Is it a little like calling AfD voters hard of thinking. They don’t like hearing the truth.

*fingers in ear* or *I’ll shout you down and do it loudly to drown you out so I’m right(eous)*

It’s worth everyone looking at the latest protests in Isreal.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/sep/01/protests-israel-strike-eruption-outrage-gaza-war

Netanyahu is increasingly seen as making decisions for his own survival, not for the safety of Israeli citizens (for most outside, and for many inside, that’s been obvious all along of course). No idea where this is heading next. Nowhere good I fear, with or without Netanyahu.

Limited arms export ban

Well, there you go. They’ve found a way of sending a signal to Israel, without pulling out of arrangements with the USA & Germany. It’s only a signal, we really are a minnow when it comes to directly supplying Israel, but it’s a welcome signal.

It’s only a signal, we really are a minnow when it comes to directly supplying Israel, but it’s a welcome signal.

Yup, it won’t hurt Israel in any meaningful material way, according to the Washington Post British arms exports to Israel represent 0.02 percent of Israel’s overall military imports, and I think the ban affects about 10% of that.

But the public declaration by the UK government that it considers there is a real risk of a “serious violation of international humanitarian law” by Israel will be a real blow to the ‘most moral army in the world’.

And it of course further increases Israel’s international isolation and pariah status.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/09/02/uk-suspends-arms-sales-israel/

30 out of 350 is pretty much a drop in the ocean. But what would be more interesting is to know what these 30 actually supply

Components for military aircraft including fighter aircraft, helicopters and drones apparently. I am sure that the United States will quietly provide Netanyahu with alternative sources.

Besides, I am sure that they have sufficient advanced military hardware to carry on slaughtering an essentially unarmed people.

But the public declaration by the UK government that it considers there is a real risk of a “serious violation of international humanitarian law” by Israel will be a real blow to the ‘most moral army in the world’.

Fantasy. They don’t give the smallest damn what the UK government or population think. They will continue the genocide project unaffected.

t’s worth everyone looking at the latest protests in Isreal.

The Israeli public have had many opportunities to get rid of Netanyahu if that’s what they actually wanted to do, but he has been consistently democratically re-elected.

Fantasy

What is definitely a fantasy is your tediously repeated claims that the zionists don’t care about international condemnations.

They are of course fully aware that their survival is totally dependant on international support. Which is why they push back so hard against accusations of war crimes and crimes against humanity by international courts, organisations, and governments, accusing all who criticise them of anti-semitism.

The defeatist nonsense that Israel can act with total impunity which means that no one can do anything beyond moaning and complaining is a fantasy which plays extremely well into their hands.

As Netanyahu repeatedly and deliberately provokes Iran and Hezbollah into attacking Israel he does so in the full knowledge that Israeli air defences will be overwhelmed without US, UK, and French, support. It is an act of desperation. A gamble which he feels is necessary.

The zionist experiment is collapsing, the genocide which is occurring in Gaza is a symptom of that collapse and failure. The greatest crises in Israel’s history is not a sign of zionism’s strength, it is a sign of its weakness.

What is definitely a fantasy is your tediously repeated claims that the zionists don’t care about international condemnations

How many Palestinian lives has this worthy condemnation saved? How many mouths does an ICJ statement feed?  Israel is supported 100% by the world’s superpower. A lot weaker regimes have pursued their genocide unhindered so pretending that Israel will behave differently is, well, fantasy.

The Israeli public have had many opportunities to get rid of Netanyahu if that’s what they actually wanted to do, but he has been consistently democratically re-elected.

And? The idea that Israeli society is united behind its leaders and that all Israelis share a common vision is nonsense.

The deep divisions within Israeli society are barely sustainable. Cracks are appearing all over the place and whilst Netanyahu might well be maintaining a bunker mentality* these developments are hugely damaging to the zionists.

* Yes the reference to the final days of the Third Reich was deliberate.

Israel is supported 100% by the world’s superpower.

Sorry mate but you really talk some shite if you think that the UK’s Foreign Secretary publicly announcing the the UK government believes there is a risk of “serious violation of international humanitarian law” by Israel will have no bearing whatsoever on US policy towards Israel.

United States support for Israel is a judgement call. They have decide the pros and the cons, all manner of issues effects the decisions they make, including the positions and attitudes of their closest allies.

Sorry mate but you really talk some shite if you think that the UK’s Foreign Secretary publicly announcing the the UK government believes there is a risk of “serious violation of international humanitarian law” by Israel will have no bearing whatsoever on US policy towards Israel.

i hope you’re right – we will see. In the meantime, how many deaths in Gaza today ?

Cracks are appearing all over the place and whilst Netanyahu might well be maintaining a bunker mentality* these developments are hugely damaging to the zionists.

* Yes the reference to the final days of the Third Reich was deliberate.

“Bunker mentality” is often misunderstood. It isn’t a term specific to any one leader or state, but is a term used symbolically by psychologists when narcissistic leaders are in power.

The Jerusalem Post published this piece on Benjamin Netanyahu https://www.jpost.com/Jerusalem-Report/Netanyahus-narcissism-584857

“Narcissism” is often inappropriately used, but you may be correct albeit with the wrong reasoning

It’s also a golfing brand https://bunker-mentality.com/

Netanyahu isn’t happy with David Lammy for listening to legal advice about the potential consequences of supplying arms to a regime which you know might commit “serious violation of international humanitarian law”

Netanyahu says ‘shameful’ of UK to halt some arms export licences to Israel

https://www.reuters.com/world/netanyahu-says-shameful-uk-halt-some-arms-export-licences-israel-2024-09-03/

I guess that when you violate international law on a daily basis it is only natural to expect those close to you to do the same.

I notice from the article that Netanyahu is still trying to delude the Israeli people into believing that he can defeat the Palestinian resistance.

Despite the fact that nearly a year on from the beginning of the onslaught, and with unrestricted access to the most advanced military hardware in the world, he still hasn’t managed to. In fact he wants to expand the war in an attempt to cover up his complete failure.

A really interesting article about Netanyahu from an Israeli’s perspective imo

As furious protesters take to the streets, Netanyahu may well have reached his political dead-end | Alon Pinkas https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/sep/03/israel-protesters-netanyahu-gaza-war?CMP=share_btn_url

An article in The Lancet estimates that nearly 200,000 Palestinians have been killed, directly or indirectly, by the Israeli war on Gaza. But yeah – self defence.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2824%2901169-3/fulltext

As furious protesters take to the streets, Netanyahu may well have reached his political dead-end | Alon Pinkas

What does he say about furious protestors storming a prison to demand the release of soldiers accused of torturing prisoners?