Gaza

That’s not evidence ! Thats third hand allegations in a notoriously left wing newspaper!

About as far from evidence as you can get.

Yeah right. You’re obviously not an objective commentator. I won’t be responding further to your propaganda.

Wow

ok

I’d love to see your evidence of what you’ve alleged in that post .

Why? You would simply reject it. It is accepted by the United Nations relief agencies, international aid agencies, and the international community as a whole, that the IDF have killed sixteen thousand children in Gaza since October last year.

The IDF have no respect for the lives of Palestinian children. The Idea that Hamas can “hide behind children”, as you claim, is as ludicrous as to claim that they can hide behind paper bags.

The IDF have been shooting and killing children for decades. They have simply upped the antes in Gaza in the last 10 months.

Btw what has the fact that the Guardian is according to you “notoriously left wing” got to do with the credibility of an article? I would be interested if you could explain that please.

Hamas may not physically hide behind children, but if they really cared about the civilian population, would they not fight out in the open?  Now they have watched 40,000 civilians die because of a war which they initiated, would they not surrender to stop any further killing?  Israel are not going to stop, unless their government is overthrown (or, maybe, the US withdraw support).  I’m sure some of the allegations against the IDF must be true. but some on here are alleging that the whole of the Israeli armed forces are nothing but sadistic murderers.  I can’t believe that.

would they not surrender to stop any further killing?

So it’s Hamas’ fault that IDF are slaughtering civilians. Makes sense. Should Ukraine surrender as well? Or is that different?

some on here are alleging that the whole of the Israeli armed forces are nothing but sadistic murderers.  I can’t believe that.

Plenty of evidence of it. How else do you describe someone doing a dance on Tim-Tok to celebrate murder ?

because of a war which they initiated

Initiated? What on earth are you talking about – this has been going on for 75 years, long before any of the Hamas fighters were even born.

And in the last year literally hundreds of Palestinians have been killed in Occupied West Bank by the Israelis. There is no “Hamas war” going on in the West Bank.

No of course the IDF are not killing Palestinian simply because they are “sadistic murderers”, anymore than the Nazis murdered 6 million Jews simply because they were sadistic murderers, it would be ridiculous to claim that.

They are killing thousands Palestinians, mostly women and children, because they consider their lives to be worthless and they have goals which they wish to achieve.

They have precisely the sort of mentality which you would expect far-right fascists to have, which is of course exactly what they are.

And above is your reason why the Guardian being left wing is relevant

So, didn’t the incursion by Hamas last October start this current shooting war then? Just for a minute, consider this: Hamas and Hezbollah are backed by Iran, who’s stated aim is to wipe Israel off the map.  What would you do?

So, didn’t the incursion by Hamas last October start this current shooting war then?

Did history start on October 7 ?? Is there a reason to ignore everything that happened before that ??

Of course not.  October 7 escalated it beyond anything recently, though.  I hope you’re not saying that Israel are the only baddies here.  See my comment about Iran.

October 7 escalated it beyond anything recently, though

So Israel slaughtering civilians is Hamas’ fault. That’s what every domestic abuser says – “I didn’t want to hit her, she made me do it, I had no choice”.

See my comment about Iran.

How many Palestinians or Israelis has Iran killed in the last year ?

. double post …

My point was, simply, that Iran’s stated aim is to wipe Israel off the map.  Their proxy fighters are Hezbollah and hamas, among others.  If you agree with that aim, fine, but don’t expect Israel to respond with anything but violence.  I’m certainly not sticking up for the way Israel have been acting (who could?) but I can possibly see why they are doing some of the things they do.  They consider that they are surrounded by enemies and will probably fight to the last man if attacked.  Someone earlier mentioned Bomber Command in WW2 – it was all-out war then and it seems that Israel and Hamas think that way now.  I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see a war between Israel and Iran at some point, either.  I’m sure our good friend and ally Saudi Arabia wouldn’t object.

“Stated aims” don’t kill any children. Bullets and bombs (and starvation and disease) kill children.

How many Palestinians or Israelis has Iran killed in the last year ?

Seriously?

Surely no one is saying Iran is not behind most of what is going on ?
That would be amazingly naive, bordering on something else really.

Yes only bullets and bombs kill children, but surely you must agree that if Hamas and Hezbollah had an air force or armour they would be blowing up as many children in Israel as they could?  The anti-Israeli bias amongst some people on here is a wee bit worrying.  Maybe it’s a little bit more than just anti-Israeli?  I hope I’m wrong.

The anti-Israeli bias amongst some people on here is a wee bit worrying.  Maybe it’s a little bit more than just anti-Israeli?  I hope I’m wrong.

I don’t see a bias, but you go ahead and accuse people of anti-Semitism, and welcome to my virtual “ignore” button.

I hope I’m wrong

Id say you probably aren’t.

“if Hamas and Hezbollah had an air force or armour they would be blowing up as many children in Israel as they could”

Short answer… Yes.

but don’t expect Israel to respond with anything but violence

No I really wouldn’t, not for a minute.

but surely you must agree that if Hamas and Hezbollah had an air force or armour they would be blowing up as many children in Israel as they could?

Hezbollah certainly has the capability. The United States recently concluded that Hezbollah has the capability to fire 3,000 missiles a day at Israel for up to 3 weeks, this would easily overwhelm Israel’s iron dome defenses.

Presumably you believe that Hamas decapitated babies?

Iran provides support to Hamas and Hezbollah, I don’t actually see a problem with supporting those fighting the illegal foreign occupation of their land, do you?

And despite giving material support to Hamas Iran doesn’t control them anymore than the United States controls Israel, they are not even ideologically and ethnically close. Hamas are Sunni Arabs and Iranians are Shia Persians. At one point they were each supporting totally opposing sides in the Syrian civil war, that’s how little control Tehran has over Hamas.

Obviously it works very much in Netanyahu’s and his fascist government’s favour to claim that Hamas and Tehran are the same thing. He would have you believe that slaughtering Palestinian women and children is part of the fight to stop Iranian global dominance, or whatever bollocks far-right Islamophobics spout.

So, if Israel went back to the 1967 borders and stopped murdering their neighbours for fun would you say it had the right to exist?  Or, as Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria and various other groups believe, should all the citizens of Israel (excepting the muslims, obviously) be thrown into the sea?  I’d be keen to hear your solution.

I don’t see a bias, but you go ahead and accuse people of anti-Semitism, and welcome to my virtual “ignore” button.

I very much doubt the people posting on here are in any way anti-semitic, mostly just people outraged at the loss of innocent lives in Israel, Gaza and possibly (but hopefully not) Lebanon. I do however find it interesting, and a bit depressing, that the civil war raging in Sudan gets so little mention. I don’t see any threads on here about it (apologies if I’m wrong), it gets little media coverage and there certainly aren’t loads of folk taking to streets in protest. Huge numbers of people are being killed, millions displaced and starvation is rife. But the rest of the world, including those outraged by what Israel is doing, seems to turn a blind eye?

I should add that I’m as guilty as many as regards this issue. However I have been at least a bit aware of what is going on. I suspect part of the problem is it’s not a s clear cut as Gaza, but there may well be other reasons.

I’ve steered clear of this thread, partly because I find the situation so depressing. But also because reading western Europeans bickering with each other about it from the safety of their sofas just seems to magnify it for me – more than most other issues. I’m a gold plated bickerer on most other subjects, but this just seems futile and disrespectful. No one in the history of the internet has changed their mind after a forum argument; so to have one over something like this…..

For me the whole situation is the very worst of humanity. The treatment of the Palestinians over the last 3 generations has been deplorable. Hamas’ attack on October 6th was inhuman, up there with the worst of wartime atrocities.  I have no issue with simultaneously believing that Hamas’ actions have not prioritised the  safety of the Palestinian civilians AND Israeli forces and leadership have committed countless war crimes. And behind all of it, deep buried inside, are beliefs in non-existent ‘gods’  and the evil fervour and segregation only organised religion can muster.

I simply can’t conceive of anyone who could ‘take a side’ in the current context. There is no good and evil or right and wrong here. History will look poorly on every form of current ‘leadership’ in that vicinity. The only thing that should be on anyone of outside influence’s mind right now is ceasefire. Sadly I don’t trust either side to treat one with any respect and not use it to regather their forces for more of the same.

Humans are shit shit shit.

“I do however find it interesting, and a bit depressing, that the civil war raging in Sudan gets so little mention.”

I know a family from Sudan whose parents were chased out into a Libyan refugee camp. The children were born and grew up in the camp and they stayed there for years until the U.S./Anglo French coalition started bombing the place and the locals became more hostile after Gaddafi’s demise.

A large part of what has been going on in Sudan  has been Arab militias trying to ethnically cleanse Sudan of black Africans, and that doesn’t square with  current white oppressor / people of colour narrative that is so popular within the universities and much of the media.

I’m a little suspicious that the acronym BAME was substituted with the acronym POC because Jewish people could be included under the BAME umbrella and it was deemed necessary by some to shift Jewish people from the ethnic minority column into the white oppressor column and moreover, to the top of that column.

Which is stupid really, as we know the term Semite refers to people from the Eastern Mediterranean, thus affirming that Jewish people were ethnically from that region, as opposed to being of white European origin.

Iran provides support to Hamas and Hezbollah, I don’t actually see a problem with supporting those fighting the illegal foreign occupation of their land

Wow.  That ends any credence given to anything you type on the subject in future.

if Israel went back to the 1967 borders and stopped murdering their neighbours

As it absolutely should do. On both counts. But if it did the right things, it would still be under attack from those that it want it gone, and the Jews there dispersed, and Jews elsewhere to have no safe haven.

Exactly.  So what is Israel to do?  It either has a right to exist or it doesn’t.  Personally, I’d like to see those bloody horrendous ‘Settlers’ (who always seem to have American accents and often a machine pistol over their shoulders) seriously controlled.  However, I do want Israel to continue as a sovereign state and am hoping for a less right wing government and peace with their neighbours.  But, Iran …..

I think they want apartheid gone and the Jews won’t need a safe haven but can live from the river to the sea in a secular democratic state like most of the rest of the developed world.  Afrikaaners didn’t need a safe haven after apartheid ended, you just have to get used to treating ‘the other’ as an equal and not a ‘human animal’.

That ends any credence given to anything you type on the subject in future.

If you don’t think that the Palestinians have the right to defend themselves and fight the illegal occupation of their land then I am equally never going to give credence to anything you say.

You presumably don’t have a problem with the IDF killing 40 thousand Palestinians in “self-defence” in 10 months.

Genocide is not self-defence.

I do however find it interesting, and a bit depressing, that the civil war raging in Sudan gets so little mention. I don’t see any threads on here about it (apologies if I’m wrong), it gets little media coverage and there certainly aren’t loads of folk taking to streets in protest. Huge numbers of people are being killed, millions displaced and starvation is rife. But the rest of the world, including those outraged by what Israel is doing, seems to turn a blind eye?

Some truth in that. I’d say that the reasons include the fact that we aren’t arming one side in Sudan, and our politicians aren’t proclaiming the right of the various parties to “defend themselves” by murdering children, so protest marches in the streets of London – or indeed Tel Aviv – seem less relevant.

However, there are some exceptions, and maybe we can hope that opinion comes around. After all, it only took 600,000 dead Rwandans before the US decided it was a genocide.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/article/2024/aug/26/macklemore-cancels-dubai-show-to-protest-uae-role-in-sudan-civil-war

I’d say that the reasons include the fact that we aren’t arming one side in Sudan,

Precisely this. What makes the current slaughter of innocent people in Gaza different to other slaughters of innocent people elsewhere in the world is that the West is providing both the diplomatic cover and the tools to carry out the slaughter.

It could not happen without the West’s complicity.

Plus it is simply an escalation of a slaughter which stretches back decades.

It could not happen without the West’s complicity.

Very true but I’m not sure I’d like to see the aftermath if the West cut Israel loose. Israel would feel completely alone and have no one curbing their more mental impulses, Iran and other bad actors would take the opportunity to wade in dragging other middle eastern countries in. The death toll on all sides would catastrophic not to mention impacts further afield.

Israel should not have been allowed to come into existence 80 years ago stealing Palestian land, unfortunately it did and we now have a right mess. Backing one side ir the other isnt going to resolve it.

I’m not sure I’d like to see the aftermath if the West cut Israel loose.

In terms of its effect on the West the consequences would be fairly minimal imo, apart from a huge influx of Israeli immigration. The Middle East’s strategic and economic importance to the West has been diminishing for some time now and will undoubtedly continue to diminish.

Palestine/Israel’s main strategic importance in the future is likely to be its geographical position on the West’s trade routes to China and India.

But imo the West could easily adjust to the non-existence of Israel. The United States might be able to easily afford the vital financial support it gives to Israel but the cost in terms of moral authority and influence in the global south might not be a price worth paying.

But imo the West could easily adjust to the non-existence of Israel.

Don’t disagree with that at all, it’s the getting to that point I’m worried about. Israel has nuclear weapons and will use them if it thinks it’s existence is under threat. Other countries in the region will see any conflict as an opportunity to settle old scores. Israel might not be that important to the West but the region is whilst we are still oil dependant so any mass war in the region will have massive knock on effects in terms of energy prices which will in turn affect the lives of billions in the West. I could see Russia and China, particularly Russia also chipping in, a big blow up in the region could trigger a world war. Condoning the brutality of Israel isn’t the same as supporting it to some extent. It’s a no win situation that will only get resolved when those in the region causing the aggression decide they’ve had enough and that won’t be anytime soon.

Don’t disagree with that at all, it’s the getting to that point I’m worried about. Israel has nuclear weapons and will use them if it thinks it’s existence is under threat. Other countries in the region will see any conflict as an opportunity to settle old scores. Israel might not be that important to the West but the region is whilst we are still oil dependant so any mass war in the region will have massive knock on effects in terms of energy prices which will in turn affect the lives of billions in the West. I could see Russia and China, particularly Russia also chipping in, a big blow up in the region could trigger a world war. Condoning the brutality of Israel isn’t the same as supporting it to some extent. It’s a no win situation that will only get resolved when those in the region causing the aggression decide they’ve had enough and that won’t be anytime soon

The West could just withdraw diplomatic and military support and let the region sort it out amongst themselves – if Israel has nukes, allow Iran to build up an equal number to ensure a level playing field.  Whoever comes out on top we can start diplomatic relations with and get back to business as usual in a few years. No need for us to get involved.

Israel’s inevitable collapse will not come from war,  although that undoubtedly adds pressure. Israel has been pretty much in a permanent state of war its whole existence. It has never been more powerful militarily than it is now, and yet it easily facing its greatest ever crisis in nearly 80 years.

Israel will collapse internally. The slaughter in Gaza is distracting attention away from its deep social and economic crisis. Nuclear weapons did not save apartheid in South Africa and they won’t save apartheid in Palestine.

Edit :

Israel might not be that important to the West but the region is whilst we are still oil dependant

If you do a bit of googling you will find figures showing how the United States dependency on Middle Eastern oil has fallen massively recently. And in an extremely short period too, I can’t remember the figures but US oil imports from the Middle East fell dramatically in the last 5-6 years

Well this is interesting.

In May, the UN’s Independent International Commission of Inquiry concluded that Israel has committed war crimes and crimes against humanity. These include torture, murder, sexual violence, and using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare. In July, the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruled Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza was unlawful. It found Israel has breached Palestinians’ rights to self-determination and entitlement to freedom from “racial discrimination and apartheid”.

And this:

Where a state or individual provides “aid and assistance” that facilitates a war crime, crime against humanity, or breach of other international law, then they can be treated as if they have committed the wrong themselves. 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/aug/26/uk-assisted-israels-breaches-of-international-law-labour-better-than-deny-it

So there is no doubt that Israel has committed war crimes and crimes against humanity. And that by providing ‘aid and assistance’ the UK government is now also guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity.

If only the UK Prime Minister understood international law.

On another subject, yesterday whilst discussing the IDF tactic of deliberately targeting civilians I couldn’t remember the name of the military doctrine the Israelis use, the above link mentions it, it’s the Dahiya Doctrine.

The Dahiya Doctrine is an Israeli military doctrine that calls for the use of massive, disproportionate force and the deliberate targeting of civilians and civilian infrastructure.

The Israelis do not target civilians simply because they are sadistic bastards, they target civilians to achieve specific military goals.

Explainer: The Dahiya Doctrine & Israel’s Use of Disproportionate Force

https://imeu.org/article/the-dahiya-doctrine-and-israels-use-of-disproportionate-force

Whoever comes out on top we can start diplomatic relations with and get back to business as usual in a few years

Hate to break it to you but if nukes are used in the Middle East a lot of Europe, Asia and Africa will cop a lot of fall out. Chernobyl caused contamination in the UK and that was nothing compared to a full on nuke shooting war.

Ernie it’s not just the supply side, it’s the fact oil is an internationally traded commodity, if Middle East supply is hit it will increase costs and as we know energy prices affect the price if everything else including basic foodstuffs.

South Africa was very different, the regime collapsed due to internal pressures, if they had used nukes it would have been on their own territory, not against some outside invader. Israel probably will change internally, the current government are far from popular but there are a lot of nationalistic and religous loonies in Israel for whom common sense and decency seem to be foreign concepts.

I should think Starmer has a reasonable grasp of international law but as he stated  “I support Zionism without qualification” he clearly couldn’t care less for it and the ‘without qualification’ bit gives them free rein for genocide with arms supplied from this country.