French Alps MTB guiding row in the Telegraph

discoduck – Member
I’m not Racist BUT I don’t like it when I am exploited in a foreign Country !

By exploited do you mean caught speeding? I paid up when I was caught in France & Spain. It’s a fine, I got a receipt (I even had to go to the cash machine for the French one) I could have jumped up and down like the spoilt 2 year old who was pulled over just after me but I knew I was in the wrong. For the record I’ve met more racist, bigoted, protectionist Brits than I have French so I guess all brits are like that.

Either we start playing nicely and keep on topic or the thread will be closed.

Ta.

OK, can we talk about economic migration inside the EU ?

when a corrupt and blatantly racist country wants to throw its weight around

What a great advert for your company. “Come holidaying in France, a nation of corrupt and blatant racists.” 🙄

@discoduck – email deleted, say it in public.

Sorry Dave for getting OT but racist generalisations are not cool and need pointing out. Basic point still stands EU vs French law, not resolved, not as clear cut as either side wants, needs a trip to the EU courts as STW has no jurisdiction on the matter.

I don’t know why the majority of guides just guise themselves up as photographers, water carriers and riding buddies. So long as I’m not going anywhere REALLY mountainous and whoever is showing me around knows where to get help/signal/coffee then isn’t it up to me to decide if he or she is trustworthy enough to show me the quickest way around a resort.
I’d be very unlikely to hire a French guide so it’s not like they’re losing out.

Oh that’s the Problem ? Racist generalisations are not COOL, and we can only discuss cool things ?
It’s you that’s touting Racial hatred, care to divulge the thought processes that eluded you think generally “what” in your opinion makes me a racist and why cchris can generalise that it’s not just the French who are like it but infact EVERYONE is ?
How come he hasn’t been adorned with your Racial ideology ?

Mike, I’m presuming you know the difference between a fine and corruption, by corrupt I mean I didn’t get a receipt from the motorcycle cop, how un COOL was that ! Or am I being a Racist bigoted protectionist Brit ? As you suggest I am ?
Not Cool !

Maybe I had the wrong coloured lense in again and should bend over and take it like

Dave, yeah I’m sorry too, if I pucker up and Kiss it like mike does that make it OK ?

I’m going to suggest, in this instance that the French aren’t being racist – they just don’t like you guiding people whatever colour you happen to be. I think the correct term is nationalistic.

Hang on a minute, at NO point did I mention any ones skin colour !

I’ve been Kangeroo Courted by Mike, who thinks its OK to slander others whilst making off the cuff remarks about Racist Brits ? My good name is being tarnished here purely because I spoke out about the way I feel corruption is being executed at the other other side of a Tunnell.

Admittedly I was doing well over the limit at the time and whilst I was trying to explain to the officer I’d rather be tried by a jury than hung by 1, I could go on but that’s it in a nutshell !

A Racist ! I wonder if they put it in my obituary ? At what point should I tell the wife and kid ?

Will it effect my position at work, what will the neighbours say ?

It’s pretty tragic, how an elite cyclist and Forum “Hard Man” can crumble some ones world ?

Any way, Mike
Please divulge your process of thought which prompted you to believe that I am a racist ?

Discoduck, you need to step away for a few hours. Dave has already said that this thread will be allowed to continue if it remains on topic. The topic in question is NOT whether or not individual posters are racist or not. The topic is guiding in the French Alps and the issues surrounding that.

If you can’t get it back on track then we will close the thread, which we really don’t want to have to do as the issue here is a current and relevant one and we would prefer it gets discussed.

That’s fine, as long as people elsewhere understand that as well and can do so without throwing little quips in and then apologising afterwards.

That is why I asked if we could discuss Economic Migration inside the EU ?
Which is basically the meat and bones of what we are looking at here.

Is it not.

This is the whole point, when a corrupt and blatantly racist country wants to throw its weight around, its quite easy for it to ignore its own laws

So why are you living, working, and (I assume) paying tax in such a country then? You have the right and freedom to live in a number of other countries, which possibly aren’t quite so ‘racist’.

This is all very tiresome. Freeride addict; you’ve single-handedly put me off ever booking a ‘guided’ mtb holiday with your cmpany, and any other Brit-run outfit which operates on a similar basis to yours, so well done. I’m sure that won’t bother you, but I think you need to recognise the irony n your insular and sngle-minded stance ganst a system/nation you accuse of the same.

I’m pretty certain that if a French company, with French staff came to set up something similar in the UK, they would encounter some resistance by the locals. Actually that is one of UKIP slogans?

Some one threw their toys out because the nasty French insisted they gain the same profesional qualifications as French people doing the same job,basically. There is a reasonable argumant beneath it al, but sadly obscured by petty insularity and stubborness, inmy opionon.

To be honest, not really worth wasting time over. Wish I’d not got involved really. 🙁

Stoffel + 1, certainly on being put off ‘guided’ bike holiday companies acting in this manner.

“Racist” – fair enough, I stand corrected. Nationalistic is probably more appropriate in this particular case. (Although have you forgotten that France has banned wearing the Islamic Hijab in public?!).

Either way, it was intended to be a derogatory comment…..Although I would also like to point out that these comments were aimed at a very specific minority of French nationals who unfortunately are certain individuals that work in government, and therefore act on behalf of all of the remaining open, welcoming and not outwardly corrupt nor racist French people I interact with on a daily basis.

“Corrupt” though, I do stand by that comment with respect to the administration concerned. Remember what I’m claiming is that the French are deliberately manipulating and mis-applying their own laws in an unjust fashion, in order to try to attempt to impose illegal restrictions on a foreign national from working in their country…..as follows:
a) my right to work with UK qualifications in France
b) not offering any form of test for me to demonstrate my competence if indeed (a) were in any doubt
c) ignoring my 13 years of professional experience

This is all very tiresome. Freeride addict; you’ve single-handedly put me off ever booking a ‘guided’ mtb holiday with your cmpany ……. I’m sure that won’t bother you,

That’s a shame on many levels, of course Im bothered, but ultimately I accept that this is the sort of argument that will polarise views. It was a very difficult decision to go public about the issues we are facing in France and one that I believe the French Administration were banking on me not being prepared to make.

Don’t worry too much. I admire someone who stands up for their rights and doesn’t just accept bein bullied around by government bureaucrats. I’d certainly use TA, in fact I probably will.

wrecker – Member
Don’t worry too much. I admire someone who stands up for their rights and doesn’t just accept being bullied around by government bureaucrats. I’d certainly use TA, in fact I probably will.

Spot on, infact ill see u guys in a couple of weeks. Like you say there will always be people who agree with you and those that don’t. At least no matter how this pans out you can look yourself in the mirror and know you did what you thought was right. Good luck.

I’d definately use TA !
I’d just hope that their Guides have as much spunk as he has.
Standing up for something that you believe in is a rare commodity these days, it’s far easier to sit at a computer desk and give it big licks and belittle people with a holier than thou attitude.

I dare say when the dust settles and with a positive result there will prob be a post crop up on here about how this descsion has helped out with UK nationals working in the high Alps.

Good luck

Although have you forgotten that France has banned wearing the Islamic Hijab in public?!

No, what they did, was ban clothing intended to conceal the face, in public places. So, you can’t walk around wearing a balaclava, ski-mask, Mexican wrestlers’ hood or any other face-concealing clothing. The Hijab is not ‘face cncealing clothing’. hAnd you know how you were going on about European laws?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28106900

not offering any form of test for me to demonstrate my competence if indeed (a) were in any doubt

There is a test. Yu’re just refusng to take it.

Good luck FA

freeride_addict: would you say Trail Addiction is a “nationalistic” company (or could be seen as such) for employing Brits guides only?
If I had an MTB guiding company here in UK certainly I would not employ Spanish guides only , sure I’d like to have some locals as long as they are competent.

If your company catered mostly to spanish people, you might.

(though is it true that TA only employ british guides? ie is it a matter of policy)

As an ex-guide working outside of Britain but mainly guiding Brits, I think the real reason that companies employ such people, is that the locals aren’t stupid enough to work for the wages that these companies pay.

stoffel are you on some kind of crusade against TA? Really struggling to see where all your animosity comes from.

walleater – Member
As an ex-guide working outside of Britain but mainly guiding Brits, I think the real reason that companies employ such people, is that the locals aren’t stupid enough to work for the wages that these companies pay.

Going back to my previous statement, pay less, charge less, undercut the locals who have paid for the training.
Nice business plan.

Northwind: well I see things differently, I thought if they were mostly Spanish clients/tourists they would value some interaction/knowledge with/from locals… when travelling abroad! Coming to UK to stay, cycle, eat , etc with Spanish people and not mixing with locals at all would be strange to me, but maybe you are right and it’s me the strange one.
Don’t know if it’s TA policy but it could be seen this way. I don’t know if French authorities are trying to protect French guides only or guides in general (proper wages and job conditions, etc.)could be seen both ways.

walleater: I hope this isn’t the case of TA, but yes people here tend to see this jobs as a summer job for which you can be exploited, and not just a job.

Iolo, judging by your man Math’s with an S, if TA pay their guides £60 a day would you then expect a 5 day break in the region for £300 ?

And as there were 10 in the group would you then scale that down to £30 leaving the other 9 in the party to pay a proportion of the rest.
And then when you returned from a good days riding would you then feed your self and sleep in your car in the car park ?

I’m just trying to grasp your side of the argument, I’m looking at accom, food, cleaning, logistics, admin etc.

Maybe you should cost the week away, just pay a company for guiding only and then once in situ pay your own way, see if it works out cheaper.

I’m not saying about the accommodation and food, I’m sure it’s top notch.
I’m saying the training costs are much lower by TA.
A competitor who also produces top notch food and accommodation but with the expensive french accreditation will always be more expensive.
Or have I missed something discoduck?

One day, the French will recognise that competition is good. It’s almost happening in the ski industry’s. For years the ESF gave crap service and we saw the rise of new schools including those staffed by foreign instructors who could and would speak the language if the client. I made the switch for my family. Very slowly the ESF emerged and evolved to the extent that I often go back to them for collective “competition” classes. With people off using the competition, this means a class of 1-3 people for what becomes great value off-piste guiding, albeit I have to use my French.

But if we are going to complain about protectionism, let’s also look in the mirror at our attitude towards foreign workers. Ok we are not as bad as the French, but we are far from perfect.

Miguelo – Member

Northwind: well I see things differently, I thought if they were mostly Spanish clients/tourists they would value some interaction/knowledge with/from locals… when travelling abroad! Coming to UK to stay, cycle, eat , etc with Spanish people and not mixing with locals at all would be strange to me, but maybe you are right and it’s me the strange one.

That’d make sense if you only ever spoke to your guides but the reality is you meet a bunch of people- you’re not just hiding in the chalet and running out to ride bikes. And bear in mind here, guests are choosing these companies- no doubt there are french vtt guiding companies out there we could choose to ride with.

But when you’re doing the actual riding, language and cultural barriers can be a bummer, you want to be with people who get you and who you get. This isn’t necessarily a problem of course but it’s far less likely to be a problem with a UK guide.

Out with White Room, I loved riding with Yvan, who was extremely french. Maybe my favourite guide. But even in our group there were some people that weren’t so keen, understanding could be a bit tricky sometimes, there was far less chat etc.

Oh, and it’s an side from this thought but if you’re a company that provides pay + board and you employ a local, board isn’t such a selling point…

Iolo, no not missed anything, sorry I thought you were on about the daily rate the guys get paid in relation to a week away and not the lengthy VTT accreditation and associated cost.

If that’s the case then simple answer “I don’t Know”
I don’t know who pays for the course if you are a French Citizen working within your own country whether it’s down to you as an individual or the company you work for and represent, more than likely the former, which does equate to that cost being passed on and whether that is built into a French guides daily rate over and above what a UK guide would charge again dunno.

But broken down in simple terms like that you can see how the problem has arisen, I doubt that there are many French companies employing that many UK guides without the relevant quals.

I don’t know who pays for the course if you are a French Citizen

I’m sure someone said they get grants.

I feel like I should be able to travel freely inside the Economic Union and set up my stall to conduct a business with qualifications that should be recognised inside the EU without prejudice.

indeed you should, however what TA did was set up shop 13 years ago, and hope to carry on under the radar, in spite of local legislation. ‘pioneering spirit’, or a ‘screw it, nothing to really loose’ attitude?
i can see both sides of it. the french want people to be professionals and to be able to earn a wage that enables them a decent standard of living. if someone is looking at what to do for a living, and investing time getting trained, then surely they’re going to look at what the rewards are likely to be once qualified.
i imagine the french want people to be able to stay, work, and live in the mountains, and be able to have a decent lifestyle, rather than those villages turn in to skiing and biking theme parks.
while i can see the benefit of what TA and other companies do in using seasonal employees, in terms of providing an equivalent, or even better, standard of service to their clients for a good price, companies like White Room show you can do all that while being locally qualified too.
fair play to TA for standing up to The Man and all, and I wish them success.

I’m not sure White Room is a totally fair comparison tbh- they’ve gone the IML route but they do winter season too so the argument about usefulness/validity doesn’t really apply.

wrecker
I’m sure someone said they get grants

I’m glad you cleared that up.
Would you care to substantiate this statement or shall we all just accept it must be true as someone said.

Don’t think TA were running in 2001

Trail Addiction run great holidays, I’m looking forward to my next.

I’ve spent quite some time living in France, it’s a highly protected economy and very nationalistic. They make as difficult as they can for foreign businesses to set up. It is also far more corrupt a country than the UK. There are some very rich politicians both local and national who weren’t that way when they started.

What TA are doing is not in any way economic migration. This is a visionary company which saw the potential of the region and setup a business which brings significant trade to the region. Had TA and some of the other UK guiding companies not gone to the region there would be a fraction of the number of UK tourists and materially less business and revenue for the locals.

I like your debating skills wrecker.

Thank you, but I wasn’t debating. Discoduck asked a question, I told him what was said earlier in the thread. I didn’t portray it as the only truth (or any truth); hence the “I’m sure someone said”, however you decided to get your knickers in a twist over a pretty innocent comment, so no I am not going to back anything up at your request.

By the way the French don’t offer the type of guided chalet based holidays that the UK companies do summer and winter. They have tried from time to time but the English generally book with English run companies and the French won;t pay for the format. The closest they have is Club Med, I have been to the one in Peisey Vallandry close to where TA are and the club is very nice but it’s more than double the price.