French Alps MTB guiding row in the Telegraph

So basically you pay (because that is what I asked you) your guides 10€ per hour (and I am making the assumption that they only work 35 hours a week here).

Exactly correct, yes! And I’m very proud of that fact. I have about 10 to 20 times the number of applicants who want to work for me every year, than I have vacant positions.

That is a very poor wage. Minimum wage people with a BE get paid is between 15 to 24€/hours. Maybe here lies a part of your answer.

THANKYOU! You have just demonstrated the REAL root of the issue here – which is as follows:

French guides want to keep a monopoly on the labour market for guiding, excluding foreign guides, fixing prices between themselves and thereby protecting their own hugely overpriced rates. THIS is the real and ONLY reason I am being forbidden to guide – it is nothing to do with maintaining apparent high French standards. All these standards attempt to do is create a closed market, so that holiday makers have no choice but to get ripped off for a low standard service at extortionate prices.

Im not at all saying that ALL French guides fall into this position – far from it. However the Unions of the ESF and MCF are the ones that force the issue, and it is they that I will openly point my finger at as the real root-cause of the issue.

Here’s some juicy gossip for you:
1) Did you know that the husband of one of the key administrators who is blocking my right to work in France, just happens to be the owner of one of only a small handful of registered schools in France that I would have to pay my 9000 Euros to in order to get the French qualification?

2) Did you know that one of the other senior Administrators who is heading this investigation, used to be an ESF ski instructor himself?

Obviously, both of the above facts are merely co-incidence. No corruption or bias could possibly be taking place inside a French government body, could it?

;-P

THANKYOU! You have just demonstrated the REAL root of the issue here – which is as follows:

I am a tight harse and I don’t want to pay qualified people the price I should pay them. I prefer under pay other people.

IFTFY

I just do hope nothing bad is going to happen to one of your guest, because you’re just going to be screwed. Sensible course of action will be to have your guide trained for very little through FONGECIF.
It will cost you almost nowt and your guide will still be paid while training.

Hi Ali,

Having just about recovered from an awesome week in Les Arcs with TA last week I’d happily support your crusade.

Given it is a bit of a sticky issue to explain perhaps you’d like to write a letter and share it on here/facebook and we could send to our Euro-MP? (I don’t hold out much luck with the UKIP ones) It’s a bit tricky because they represent their local constituents and I’m not sure if your guides are classed as UK constituents if they are living in France. But hey, happy to give it a go!

I hope your guides and your employment and tax residency status are all above board. Speaking as a French registered entrepreneur……

the whole look im being persecuted wink wink thing has just lost any respect i had for you.

Damn I just got trolled. I guess there is no such thing as bad publicity.

Whether it’s a requirement in the UK or not really isn’t at all relevant.

It is compltely relevant. The French qualification allows oyu to legally operate as a guide. The MBLA thing is merely a recognition of a level of competence. Very different things.

French guides want to keep a monopoly on the labour market for guiding, excluding foreign guides, fixing prices between themselves and thereby protecting their own hugely overpriced rates. THIS is the real and ONLY reason I am being forbidden to guide – it is nothing to do with maintaining apparent high French standards. All these standards attempt to do is create a closed market, so that holiday makers have no choice but to get ripped off for a low standard service at extortionate prices.

Do you have any concrete evidence of this, or is this meely your own subjective opionion?

So basically you pay (because that is what I asked you) your guides 10€ per hour (and I am making the assumption that they only work 35 hours a week here). That is a very poor wage.

I’ll say.You’re expected to have a high degree of experience, as well as be highly profficient inrelevant skills, yet only get paid £7.95 an hour? In a place/job where people are paying thousands per head for a couple of weeks holiday? That is shit. Exploitation, even…

The argument that the guides are being exploited is laughable.
Good luck Ali, monopolism would suck.

I’ll say.You’re expected to have a high degree of experience, as well as be highly profficient inrelevant skills, yet only get paid £7.95 an hour? In a place/job where people are paying thousands per head for a couple of weeks holiday? That is shit. Exploitation, even…

There’s also a massive over supply of willing labour for those “dream summer jobs” which will always bring the price down.

Frustratingly I can see both sides of the argument and I’m not sure on which side I fall.

I’m sure all this national media publicity hasn’t done TA’s bookings any harm mind. Even if it will cost him a spell in the clink.

stoffel – Member

It is compltely relevant. The French qualification allows oyu to legally operate as a guide. The MBLA thing is merely a recognition of a level of competence.

MBLA is recognised by the relevant authority as being a higher qualification than the french qualification! We’re going in circles here.

only get paid £7.95 an hour? In a place/job where people are paying thousands per head for a couple of weeks holiday? That is shit. Exploitation, even…

I should imagine the bulk of the money i would pay for a week in the Alps goes on my board and lodgings, lift passes etc etc…you cant look at the headline amount, then the hourly rate for guides and scream exploitation, you know full well there’s more to it than that….plus (shock horror) the company wants to make a profit, seen by many on here as a dirty word but businesses that dont make a profit dont remain businesses for very long!

….as an example, it costs around £500 to call 999 and have an Ambulance to your door. Do i as the attending Paramedic get £500 for that call?….do i heck!….once fuel costs, call takers salary, dispatchers salary, running cost of the control room, insurance costs, etc etc get taken out i’m lucky to get my hourly rate of £20!….i should imagine a similar scenario exists in most jobs with guiding in the Alps no exception.

Anyway, if my employer would let me take leave in great big blocks i’d come out next summer and do it for that hourly rate….free board and lodgings, free passes and a free Nukeproof Mega!!!!…what’s not to like?!

Northwind – Member
stoffel – Member
It is compltely relevant. The French qualification allows oyu to legally operate as a guide. The MBLA thing is merely a recognition of a level of competence.

MBLA is recognised by the relevant authority as being a higher qualification than the french qualification! We’re going in circles here.

I gained my MBLA a few years ago and no way, having been abroad a few times, would I consider myself capable of working in the Alps or elsewhere. Can’t speak a word of French and people struggle to understand my Scottish accent 🙄

I was in Chatel a couple of years ago and our host/guide was at pains to make sure we understood the situation and that he was just one of the ride group if an issue arose ❗ We all knew this before we signed up btw…..

Good luck in your quest guys…..

We’re going in circles here.

I’m not.

In france, you need a particular qualification to do a particular job, legally. In the UK, there is no equivalent, as you don’t need any qualifications to do that same job. It is really that simple.

What you’re doing, is making the mistake that a recognition of competence, eg the MBLa ‘qualification’ (something concocted by a non-government organisation which has no legal weight whatsoever), is ‘equivlent’ to a legally required qualification.

Think about gas fitting. By law, you need to be a Gas Safe registered technician, before you are legally allowd to fit gas appliances in the UK. It doesn’tmatter if you were a rocket scientist specilaising in gas systems in France, you still aren’t ‘qualified’ to fit gas applieances in the Uk, even ythough you may have vastly superior knowledge of gas technology.

Tend to agree with Mr stoffel ^^^^^^. The governing body SC/BC do not administer or regulate the awards in any way.
I actually know one of the guys who helped develop the award along with SC and Glenmore Lodge and it was originally designed for the outdoor education/schools sector. The catalyst being the unfortunate kayaking deaths on the south coast.
The quali would seem to allow “anyone” to start up a business coaching or guiding. Speaking to a tutor just the other day about this and the new BC qualification is already in troubled due to there being too many people taking it and not enough assessors apparently ❓
I did a night riding module a while back. The tutor was young enough to be my son and probably learnt more from the group than he imparted!! He was on our home patch but not very well prepared….

A friend of mine is a very well respected and champion at world level in sculling. He was asked to stop “coaching” a good number of years ago because he was not “qualified” ie he had no paper qualifications. Needless to say he spat the dummy!! He got over it 😆

@Trekster etc- I think the point here isn’t whether or not SMBLA is brilliant- it’s that it’s better than the French qualifications required. As the article and the EQF assessment says, we kind of assume the French guiding qualification must be really high, but it’s really pretty basic.

There’s probably a good argument to make for vtt guides to be more highly qualified than the current standard. But that’s a different thing entirely from the French attempt to require foreign guides to be more highly qualified than French ones, and to allow French nationals to guide with a pretty entry level qualification.

stoffel – Member

In france, you need a particular qualification to do a particular job, legally. In the UK, there is no equivalent

Except for the MBLA which has been assessed by the european authority and found to be a higher qualification than the basic French one. Whether you need it to guide in the UK doesn’t matter and I’m not sure why you’d think it does. What does matter is that it’s been assessed and found to exceed the required standard.

Your points on Gas Safe are… weird. Gas Safe isn’t a qualification at all, of course. But you dismiss the MBLA as being “concocted by a non-government organisation which has no legal weight whatsoever”, when Gas Safe accept qualfications of which the exact same is true. For example the SQA is a non-governmental qualification body whose qualifications have no legal weight, but the qualifications they’ve concocted have been found to be sufficient to be Gas Safe registered.

And this is similiar to the process that the EQF has completed that concluded the MBLA isn’t just adequate- it’s better than required.

Weird
last time this came up, the lads at TA were saying

“trailAddiction WILL be offering trail guiding as part of its package(s) in 2013. Every guide which trailAddiction uses will possess a qualification explicitly recognised and accepted by the relevant French authority. “

Dunno what changed

Just bloody do the french ticket. French will be happy bunnies, you legal, end of.
If you disagree, go somewheree that accepts your current accreditation and trade there.

@juan – you are out on a limb with this “low pay” line. @stofel you are also missing out the fact that board and lodging is provided. My daughter is 12 months into a graduate programme with a major employer and after she’s paid her board and lodging costs she has far left left over than a TA guide. She has a first class degree by the way in a subject directly relevant to her work.

Market forces decide someones worth in the workplace, not unions, or even governments.
Northwind is entirely correct. I’m unsure if those who can’t see it are being deliberately obtuse. EU law trumps French law, just as it does here and that’s just the way it is. The french don’t have a leg to stand on and I hope it does go to the courts.

I hope it goes to the courts and the minimum standard is brought up to the level of the SLMBA.

I would have though that 350 is pretty good considering the perks .
a lot of seasonal jobs are a lot less than that .

It’s nice to see TA advertising Neil Donahughe working illegally in France on the internet.
Well done that man.

Nothing illegal about it according to both French and EU law.

You keep forgetting to shout FAAAAACT!!! when you offer your unqualified opinion.

Anyway, anyone written to their MP’s about the unfair licensing conditions for London black cab drivers restricting cab drivers qualified in other countries yet?

Whats not particularly clear to me is whether being a VTT guide is officially a regulated profession

Theres an online database that shows which professions are regulated, and what agreements have been drawn up by different countries to recognise other countries qualifications

http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/qualifications/regprof/

and seems to indicate that being a tourist guide is one qualification, rather than being a sports instructor or teacher, is a different one – and that the recognition of existing qualifications for both is quite different

there also seems to be a route for temporary or occasional employment of staff from abroad thats supposed to be taken on a case by case basis, allowing foreign qualifications or experience to be taken into account.

wrecker – Member
Nothing illegal about it according to both French and EU law.

So why this thread?

You keep forgetting to shout FAAAAACT!!! when you offer your unqualified opinion.

It’s not my opinion. It’s been stated by TA, who have legal representation and have spent more time looking at this than you have because their existance depends on it. I would recommend that you read the supporting articles.

So why this thread?

Again, read the articles. The “laws” someone has tried to apply to the outdoor professional industry are incompatible with French national and EU law.

It is TA’s opinion (and an excuse for free marketing to the slower witted), and until proven in court or not only the opinion of their legal representatives.

But you can keep pretending its a fact if it makes you feel better.

It is TA’s opinion (and an excuse for free marketing to the slower witted), and until proven in court or not only the opinion of their legal representatives.

I’m quite aware thanks. What I’m saying is that I value their opinion (considering the research, legal advice and years of dealing with this) far more than I do of some randomer on the interwebs who knows no more about this than the average joe in the street.
And it’s still not my

unqualified opinion

it’s that of those better informed than either of us.

Had TA done what the authorities asked of them at the time this wouldn’t even be an issue.
Just as a matter of interest do other trail guides have this problem and joining TA in court or are they just keeping quiet and doing what’s needed?

The STW article mentions Sam Morris of Bike Village as taking the same approach. I expect because he’s also operating in Les Arcs and that’s the area they have targetted recently.

Just as a matter of interest do other trail guides have this problem and joining TA in court or are they just keeping quiet and doing what’s needed?

if you’d actually read the article on the front page you’d know it was more than just TA and you’d know the legal situation as well.

I read it. It does seem they are going it alone while others accepted it and just got on with it.

I’m struggling to see why you wouldn’t just go the IML plus route.

Note the MBLA course notes state:

On successful completion of MBL assessment the participant will be sufficiently skilled in mountain bike leading to lead groups within Scotland and the UK as detailed below

I’m quite aware thanks

Good then you will be retracting your clearly false statement-

Nothing illegal about it according to both French and EU law.

Which is nothing more than based on the biased opinion of others, and unproven legally.

it’s that of those better informed than either of us.

But less well informed than the French authorities.

Good then you will be retracting your clearly false statement-

Clearly? LOL. Prove that it’s false.

Which is nothing more than based on the biased opinion of others, and unproven legally.

Much like your own opinions then, only better informed.

But less well informed than the French authorities.

Who you are much less familiar with compared with French lawyers….
Do you honestly think that you know better than these people? 😆

Wrecker, I’d assume that the French government would also have taken legal advice which would suggest in their favour, it then goes to court and a judge adjudicates. One interpretation will be incorrect, why do you think it’s TAs? As I understand the 2 other usual suspects for guided holidays in the valley are complying with the requirements so it’s not entirely clear cut.

why do you think it’s TAs?

Well, they know more about it than I do. Their livlihood is threatened so naturally, they have done their homework and are prepared to go to court (as are Bike Village, so they are not alone). I’m assuming that they aren’t liars. I have heard zero explanation of the French outdoor industry point of view, certainly nothing to convince me otherwise.
It would not surprise me in the very least if it turns out that some French administrators/unions have tried to instigate something which is contrary to French and EU law. I do hope it goes to (EU) court. At least we will know.

As a comparison, if the UK suddenly stated that all pers working on a building site must hold UK qualifications for their skill/trade, no equivalances, no exception for previous experience or skill assessments, only a 3 year (or whatever) full cert, I would expect that the EU would slap us into place (restriction of trade/labour).

Would a worldwide qualification not be best? There is no (as far as I can tell) legal requirement for the Canadians to have quals for guiding and if anywhere would warrant it; it’s there. They are quite liberal though I suppose.

As a comparison, if the UK suddenly stated that all pers working on a building site must hold UK qualifications for their skill/trade, no equivalances, no exception for previous experience or skill assessments, only a 3 year (or whatever) full cert, I would expect that the EU would slap us into place.

Except there is a 3rd way involving an international qualification for guiding in mountains. There is no need to do the 3 year course as there is another one that is shorter & cheaper that will cover them.