Frame building: anyone learnt? Done a course? Taught yourself?

Being able to teach framebuilding is also a very different skill to being able to framebuild – I don’t think I’d be a particularly good instructor.

Being able to teach framebuilding is also a very different skill to being able to framebuild – I don’t think I’d be a particularly good instructor.

That’s why I like what I’ve seen / heard of the BA approach. They appear to have concentrated on breaking down and developing teaching methods for each of the steps and skills.

Framebuilding (brazing not TIG) isn’t especially difficult to do safely – but there is certainly an element of drudge and tedium to some of it – I spent enough hours as an apprentice filing and polishing lumps of steel to know I wouldn’t want it as a full time day job.

Has any one actually built or ridden one of those bamboo frames? do they actually work?

There’s at least one completely homebrew one on STW. He made it using an old Giant XTC carbon frame for the BB/dropouts/headtube/seatpost collar etc and roll wrapped the carbon with perforated electrical tape.

Has any one actually built or ridden one of those bamboo frames?

I went to a talk by the company in Brighton a while back.

The process seemed sound, they had a few bikes there that looked fine and were clearly well used.

For me, the issue was always that the tube junctions always look a little agricultural but I think it’s part of ‘the look’ so if you can cope with that then all’s good.

It might be a cheap way to prototype a custom frame geometry before you get something made in Ti etc?

Yeah just thought it looks like it could be fun to build at home with the kids, but don’t want to splash out for something that will be a bag of crap.

I’m not expecting super high quality but if you get a bike that actually works at the end it could be good building one at home.

OP, I think you’d be best off not venturing onto the VP Salon forum, atmo.

THere’s a nice wooden bike kicking about on there though, similar sort of thing to the bamboo jobbies (similar as in it’s made from wood).

Just get Ben Cooper to build you something.

Job done.

Just get Ben Cooper to build you something.

Job done.

Exactly. Or Brant for Ti stuff. Two people you know’ll build you a good frame.

“Just get Ben Cooper to build you something.”

Yore missing the entire point, which is to learn how to do something. I can easily go and buy pretty much any frame on the market, but that’s not what I want. I would like to learn new skills, and gain a better understanding of bicycle frame manufacture. In the past, I’ve taught myself woodwork to an acceptable standard, and can make my own furniture. I have several pieces around the house which give me enormous satisfaction to use and own. I’m currently making a piece for a friend, which is a lot of fun and very rewarding.

I do love Ben Cooper’s work, and would love him to make me something one day. I’m very envious of his skills and talents.

Brant, as we’ve already established, doesn’t make frames, but designs them and has them made abroad. Again, this isn’t what I’m looking for.

“They couldn’t, otherwise everyone would do it and Dave Yates would be driving a Ferrari.

I’m impressed by your enthusiasm, but I’d not trust someone who’s frame building experience was only to have built a frame on the Dave Yates course to build me a frame, let alone base a business around him relaying that information 2nd hand!”

I don’t think you actually understand what we’d like to achieve; we aren’t going into bike frame production any time soon. The idea was to be able to provide simple repairs, and some basic welding training, which could bring in extra revenue as well as valuable experience. It’s not all about massive profits. Sadly, the current manager isn’t as far-sighted as the previous one. As for the lad himself; you have absolutely no idea what he has achieved or is capable of, based on the lack of information you have. I’m confident he has the skills and talent to be able to progress in this area, given the right resources. Which is whyI’m willing to invest in the project.

“While frame building isn’t the black art many would have you believe, it’s a shed load more complex than you appear to think it is and the idea that a 52k business income is a sustainable business idea is amusing at best.”

Again, you’ve got things wrong. I’d like to learn how to build a bike frame, and help start up a project which could one day possible lead to bike frame production, as well as other creative stuff, and possible become an educational resource for others. Again, it’s not all about money. We can secure sufficient financial resources to get things off the ground, plus be able to sustain the project for at least a few years. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

I’d like to learn how to build a bike frame

When you started you were looking to find a uk based frame builder who understood enough to design and build you a Ti frame.

Now you’re building your own design of frame to your own design out of steel?

It’s not surprising people are a bit confused?

“When you started you were looking to find a uk based frame builder who understood enough to design and build you a Ti frame.

Now you’re building your own design of frame to your own design out of steel?

It’s not surprising people are a bit confused?”

They are two separate things. I am going to have a Titanium frame made, and I also want to learn how to make my own frame (from steel as that’s the material used in all of the courses). The frame building/welding/metalworking project is also completely separate. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.

Investigations into having a Titanium frame made led me to think about also learning to build a bike frame myself. And to look more into the proposed workshop project. I think some folk have jumped to their own conclusions about what I want to do.

@mick_r how do you find the o2 concentrator? How many cfm does it produce and is it enough? Do you have to wait for it to charge up then braze in short bursts?

I’ve done the Dave Yates course. I built a nice steel touring frame, with disks, a couple of years before disks on road bikes had really taken off (just over 3 years ago).

It was a lot of fun, but I’ve forgotten most of what I learned by now 🙂 I’d need to do it again if I wanted to build another frame, but that probably wouldn’t be the case if I did it 6 months later. Dave is great, and there’s a reason the waiting list is over a year – I really struggled getting a mitre correct and he was very patient. Also its right near some RAF airfield with lots of old bombers and jets taking off and landing. I went in with no welding/brazing experience and came out with a frame that (to my eye anyway) looks very good (no obvious defects certainly).

I’ve ridden ~5000 miles on the bike, and its performed flawlessly. My only frustration is that I still get pedal overlap (i have big feet and longish cranks on it) – if I’d bought everything along with me I could have made sure it wasn’t the case. I certainly won’t be ‘cutting it up’ any time soon. From a cost perspective, it worked out a few hundred quid more than a custom frame built by Dave himself (~£1200 with paint vs ~£900). For me, that was money well spent

here’s some pictures of the build and the completed frame..

IMG_2851 by Hugh Lunnon[/url], on Flickr

IMG_2860 by Hugh Lunnon[/url], on Flickr

IMG_2857 by Hugh Lunnon[/url], on Flickr

IMG_3296 by Hugh Lunnon[/url], on Flickr

IMG_3298 by Hugh Lunnon[/url], on Flickr

IMG_3813 by Hugh Lunnon[/url], on Flickr

Nice bike!

@mick_r how do you find the o2 concentrator?

Apologies to the OP for digression 🙂

Concentrator is OK – not as nice as having big bottles of oxy-acet but certainly usable as a safe home alternative.

It will give up to 5l/min, but I generally run around 3. I’m using a Saffire 3 torch (my father in law had one spare in his shed) and have settled on a no.7 tip (propane needs bigger tips and a slightly different lighting / flame size / setting technique to acetylene).

Oxygen is ready to run almost straight away. I find it works best if I can keep running the flame constantly. If I turn off the torch for a few minutes it sometimes gets upset and puts the service light on (it just seems to want a rest). Also sometimes starts a slow pulse of reduced oxygen flow rate (maybe one cycle every 15 seconds) so the flame goes a bit orange / has to be removed from the workpiece (slightly annoying).

It is an ex-hire Devilbiss. I just googled it and there seems to be lots of service manuals / troubleshooting info so might investigate more.

Fine for fillets and dropouts – not tried it for anything like a big lugged bb shell or “pepperpot” torch tips.

Thanks mick. My Dada got a o/a and a o/p tourch unused and I was going to set up the o/p tourch but had never thought about using a concentrator. I think I’ll still compare the cost of o2 bottles over a year or two vs the concentrator.

Glad to be of help – I really struggled for any information when I bought it.

I never managed to find a specific o/p torch (spoke to Murex but they don’t do any different tips or mixers for the Saffire). The only specific o/p stuff was for flame cutting / general heating (I guess you already know not to try welding steel with propane – only OK for brazing or cutting as there can be metallurgical issues with welds).

I’m sure concentrator isn’t the cheapest or nicest option, I just didn’t fancy any home hassles – so a small bbq propane bottle and low pressure “on demand” oxygen was the easy option. I never investigated, but an oxy bottle might not be a major hassle anyway (acetylene is great to use but don’t fancy living next to the bottle).

From the looks of Jo Burt’s Instagram feed, it appears that there may well be an article about the Downlands Cycles frame building course appearing somewhere in the not too distant future.

I’m going to a local FE college tomorrow, to check out the welding/fabrication courses they run, so hopefully I’ll be enrolling on something which will give me a basic foundation. Is there anything I should be concentrating on, which would be beneficial to going on to a frame-building course? I imagine sheet metal work probably won’t be as useful as learning how to mitre and join tubes.

Well their welding courses are aimed at the automotive/sheet metal fabrication and repair industries, seemed very rigidly structured, and won’t really be involving much tube joining, so not for me. Pursuing a couple of other avenues though, so still hopeful.

I’ve made 3 now, all lugged, brass brazed using oxygen and propane.
The start up is quite expensive, but I have the gas tanks rent free, maybe 200 for the torches / hoses and maybe 200 for aluminium stuff to make a jig (which you dont actually need). Then the rest is all normal tools, i use hacksaws and files, that’s it really.
I’m completely self taught, never held a torch before I started number 1.
I had my name down for a frame from a big name builder and got messed around so much that i thought “screw this, it cant be that hard” and really, its not.
Take your time, practice on scrap (ceeway will sell you cheap tubes to practice on) and enjoy the learning experience. For me, this is a world away from my real job, and I love it. It’s taking me 6 mths or so per frame, but its a hobby and the joy is in making them, not necessarily finishing them, if you see what i mean. No. 4 will be disc braked, fillet brazed, so a load more stuff to learn!

The first spin down the road on your first frame is fantastic…I raced number 3 on its first outing last weekend, that was pretty cool as well!

[/url]DSC_3527_edited-1 by Mark Yandle[/url][/img]

[/url]DSC_3547_edited-1 by Mark Yandle[/url][/img]

http://snapwidget.com/v/1120172881128916052

@mayan – that’s really nice – well done!

I have a shed full of old steel bikes and a head full of silly ideas so I’ve just bought a Bullfinch Autotorch, 1kg of bronze rods, flux and bottle of propane. £200 investment shared with a friend. Who knows what we’ll end up with!

Oh that’s beautiful, Mayan!

I’m completely self taught, never held a torch before I started number 1.

That’s really very interesting. And contradicts what some others have said. Although I’m under no illusion that it’s easy!

Busta; be sure to post up your results here!

Dont be fooled by the nice paint job! I’ve no doubt that my brazing is amateur at best. I read somewhere to make a good-looking frame you have to be good at either brazing or filing. To make a good frame you need to good at both. I’m very much in the former camp at the moment – I spent way longer cleaning up afterwards that cutting or brazing the tubes.
This is the front triangle before any clean-up, the flux is burnt and the HAZ is far too big – both signs that I’m using too much heat.

[/url]DSC_3462 by Mark Yandle[/url], on Flickr[/img]

But equally don’t be daunted, if you’re reasonably mechanically minded its not that hard, but if you can get advice / help / tuition from someone I’d always recommend you go that route.
Just on the costs – I forgot to mention the finishing of the frame, you’ll either need to find someone with some expensive tools to ream, face and chase the seat tube, head tube, and BB or buy them. I bought them cos there is no-one nearby with them. That’s about 300 or 400 worth of very nice tools.

With the internet, it’s certainly much easier to teach yourself than it used to be. Worth bearing in mind, though, that just because framebuilding can be self-taught doesn’t make it easy – most of what separates me from me 20 years ago isn’t learning more “stuff”, it’s practice.

I’m going to a local FE college tomorrow, to check out the welding/fabrication courses they run

Did you tell them they were wrong?

Bicycle framebuilding classes

I’m going to get a friend to show me some basics of tube welding, as the FE college only do sheet materials.

With the internet, it’s certainly much easier to teach yourself than it used to be. Worth bearing in mind, though, that just because framebuilding can be self-taught doesn’t make it easy – most of what separates me from me 20 years ago isn’t learning more “stuff”, it’s practice.

Of course. Or you can just use cheap labour in the far east. 😉

Or you can just use cheap labour in the far east.

You think someone like Giant are just about cheap labour, have you seen some of their aluminium hydroformed frames or their use of carbon fiber?

Far more high tech than welding some steel tubes together, like was done back in the day.