Formula 1 2025 – WILL CONTAIN SPOILERS

Brutal!… 🙂

10 startling statistics from Perez’s worst season yet at Red Bull

Yeah, those are some brutal stats. Perez always seemed like a decent driver, McLaren signed him because he had potential and he was impressive in a second rate car at whatever Jordan was called when he was there. At Red Bull before this year, he seemed a bit like Bottas – good enough that he might do a Rosberg and win the championship if the stars aligned and the team leader had some bad luck. He started this year looking like his old self and then just collapsed. Ricciardo was disappointing at McLaren, but he just looked a bit average rather than like he just didn’t belong on the grid anymore. At least Zac Brown had the balls to just bite the bullet and pay him off instead of the dithering that we’ve seen from Red Bull. Why they didn’t put Tsunoda in the car for the final few races just to see how he would go eludes me, he’s fast on a good day and no worse than Perez on a bad day.

Perez brings a large bag of cash and sponsors, and probably isn’t anywhere near as bad as those stats look in reality.

It’s worth revisting what Albon said about Max’s preferred setup and how that makes it hard for the second driver.

With Max being as imperious as he is, is it not better for Redbull that Perez is, to be kind, underperforming? They get all the glory of the WDC, but then as they can only manage third in the WCC, they get more time to develop in the wind tunnel for Max.

i assume WCC prize money is largely irrelevant to them, given their backing?

It’s worth revisting what Albon said about Max’s preferred setup and how that makes it hard for the second driver.

The problem is that Red Bull didn’t design a car around “Max’s preferred setup.” They looked at wind tunnel and track data about what makes a car faster. Max is better able to adapt to difficult cars so the engineers kept pushing to the limits that he could manage. Perez and Ricciardo couldn’t drive the cars that the engineers said should be fast. Verstappen and Norris could.  It’s not “preferred setup”, it’s engineering data about downforce, car balance, etc.

With Max being as imperious as he is, is it not better for Redbull that Perez is, to be kind, underperforming?

No, they need to have a car capable of winning the constructor’s championship. If they can’t build a competitive car, top drivers will go to other teams.

i assume WCC prize money is largely irrelevant to them, given their backing?

billionaires don’t stay billionaires by not caring about tens of millions.

If they can’t build a competitive car, top drivers will go to other teams.

you’ve said yourself that they can and do, it just takes a great driver to drive it?

billionaires don’t stay billionaires by not caring about tens of millions.

ROI comes from fizzy drink sales

thols2

The problem is that Red Bull didn’t design a car around “Max’s preferred setup.” They looked at wind tunnel and track data about what makes a car faster. Max is better able to adapt to difficult cars so the engineers kept pushing to the limits that he could manage. Perez and Ricciardo couldn’t drive the cars that the engineers said should be fast. Verstappen and Norris could.  It’s not “preferred setup”, it’s engineering data about downforce, car balance, etc.

Oh okay. Albon must be wrong then ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

i assume WCC prize money is largely irrelevant to them, given their backing?

The employees are paid bonuses based on the constructors championship position. So they may mind a little!

you’ve said yourself that they can and do, it just takes a great driver to drive it?

No, the Red Bull started the year as a very competitive car, it finished the year third best. Once McLaren introduced their flexiwing upgrade, Red Bull were just in damage control, it’s just that Max already had a huge lead in the drivers’ championship. If Max (or Senna or Shumacher or Alonso or Hamilton at their peaks) had this year’s McLaren and a compliant second driver, they would have won both championships. The Red Bull was flattered by Max and they will struggle to retain him if next year’s car is as difficult.

Max is better able to adapt to difficult cars so the engineers kept pushing to the limits that he could manage

But that’s ridiculous. There’s no difference between winning by 40 seconds and winning by 4 seconds.

If the car had been more driveable by Perez [/others that are not MV] he might have scored more points for the team and RB may even have won the driver’s championship.

Tunnel vision.

RB designa car to be as fast as possible around the tracks within the engineering constraints.
Those constraints include:
– F1 Rules
– Aerodynamics
– Material science
– Tyre Technology
– Driver capabilities
– etc etc

If they can find a material with greater capabilities than another material then they can exploit that. Perhaps carbon fibre is more rigid and lighter than aluminium so making the wings out of CF allows you to save weight that can be used elsewhere, with more benefit.
If they can find a driver who can cope with a more twitchy car then they can exploit that by reducing the useable operating window for the driver and using the savings on other things.

The car is not designed around Max. Having Max as a driver gives then less compromise on the engineering solution due to the human limitations. Other drivers may not be able to drive well within that smaller operating window.

The car is not designed around Max. Having Max as a driver gives then less compromise on the engineering solution due to the human limitations. Other drivers may not be able to drive well within that smaller operating window.

Exactly.

There’s no difference between winning by 40 seconds and winning by 4 seconds.

As a data point of a single race, maybe, but as a metric of overall car performance it’s a huge difference. It’s much harder for another team to find 41 seconds of pace than 5 seconds. If you win by narrow margins and don’t develop, you start losing very quickly.

It’s true that you don’t just add theoretical performance to make it faster in a wind tunnel if that can’t be exploited by a driver in real world conditions. But if one of your drivers is managing to exploit the performance and the other isn’t, you don’t slow the faster one down to make the slower one faster. In that scenario the limiting factor is not the car, it’s the second driver, and that’s what you look to replace.

Nice example of engineering compromise due to human limitations – https://www.autoevolution.com/news/f1-air-conditioning-how-drivers-will-be-cooled-during-hot-races-237286.html

Or they could just not goto the world’s despots when it’s too hot. Clearly money is more important than racing

Couple of places are reporting Perez as out at Redbull, nothing official yet though.

thols2Full Member
The car is not designed around Max. Having Max as a driver gives then less compromise on the engineering solution due to the human limitations. Other drivers may not be able to drive well within that smaller operating window.

Exactly.

It’s not about the car being designed from the outset for Max, nor is it that he’s some miracle superhuman driver that can drive a ‘difficult’ car that nobody else can.

It’s that the team continually incorporate his feedback,  and over time it makes the car closer and closer to his perfect setup.

And here’s the major problem: Max’s preferences are so far away from a typical setup that it makes it next to impossible for the second driver to get a setup that they can relax with and drive naturally. They fall further and further back and start overdriving to try and make up time and end up making errors all over the place.

This is all covered clearly by Albon in the video I posted.

No team is going to slow down a multiple world champion to make a car that their no 2 driver feels more comfortable with. Max can exploit the downforce that they find in the wind tunnel, Perez can’t. They aren’t designing the car for Max, they are designing it around wind tunnel findings.

Official F1 instagram reporting Perez is gone from Red Bull. What a shock! Not…

bigdaddyFull Member
Official F1 instagram reporting Perez is gone from Red Bull. What a shock! Not…

Good stuff, now, who’s their next victim? 🙂

BBC reporting the same. About time!!

I just hope the new #2 is quick enough to make it awkward for the team from time to time.

<unsurprised face>

The second RB seat will always be a poisoned chalice going directly against Max.

Whos going to get the second seat? Lawson?

Who’s gonna provide the Tequila now?
Nice bottles the last couple of Christmases 🙁

It’s going to be Lawson. Not sure he’s an improvement to be honest – seems a bit meh so far.

If they want a consistent points scorer the best one free is Bottas.

Ferrari have confirmed Lewis Hamilton’s official start date with the team:
Plan A – 1 January 2025
Plan B – 1 August 2025
Plan C – 35 Julember 7953
Plan D – to be confirmed: we are checking

How many races until Lawson is gone? I think 6.

The rumour mill is in overdrive, I’ve heard that both Sainz and Albon are going to RB (and a lot of cash going to Williams) Obviously can’t both be true, and my guess is neither… Also Bottas and Lawson. About the only person not rumoured to be going there is poor old Yuki

It’s going to be Lawson. Not sure he’s an improvement to be honest – seems a bit meh so far.

Too early to say. He did a few races in 2023 and adapted really well, then the end of this season.  He hasn’t finished a complete season yet. I think Red Bull were impressed with his racecraft, he was dropped in the deep end but was immediately willing to get out there and fight with much more experienced drivers. We’ll have a better idea of how he rates in 12 months time. Let’s face it, he doesn’t have to beat Max, just qualify near the front and take points off the other title contenders. That’s what Perez was hired to do and failed at.

Personally I wouldn’t put Lawson in the Red Bull, too inexperienced. Tsunodo certainly has experience, but Horny doesn’t rate him for some reason, probably because he’s there because of Honda. They need a fast steady driver who can stick it at the pointy end of the grid.  Would Red Bull risk upsetting the Verstappen’s with Sainz? Doubt it, Albon has already been there, doubt that he’d want to return. Bottas could be a good fit for 2025, but would he want to into the pit.

Red Bull have really ***** themselves over here for the constructors championship, and possibly the drivers too.

On a technicality, Kissy Horny’s poor judgement must’ve cost RB a fair few million because they’ve now needed to pay a chunk of compensation to Perez for terminating a contract they shouldn’t ever have agreed to. Does that compensation get excluded from the cost cap as a driver salary

Do they tho?  He “resigned” apparently….

Probably exempt, but he should be held to account over it. Let’s face it, in the real world of business the money has to come from somewhere, and the balance sheet doesn’t hide millions easily.

Besides the writing has been on the wall for a couple of seasons now, even Perez must’ve been aware with every press conference starting “So how long have you got left?”

Twodogs

Full Member

Do they tho? He “resigned” apparently….

Mutual consent according to the BBC, so think probably more to it.

Sergio Perez is to leave Red Bull two years before the end of his contract after reaching a termination agreement with the team.

Horny doesn’t rate him for some reason, probably because he’s there because of Honda. They need a fast steady driver who can stick it at the pointy end of the grid.

I think Red Bull believe Tsunoda is too immature and emotional. He has the speed but I don’t think they see him as steady.

he should be held to account over it. Let’s face it, in the real world of business the money has to come from somewhere, and the balance sheet doesn’t hide millions easily.

Horner is quite a dislikeable person but you have to respect his achievements. He was the youngest team principal on the grid, he took over a struggling organization, hired the right people, and built it into a powerhouse. Yes, the Perez debacle is a debacle but most teams on the grid would be thrilled to win four drivers championships in a row, even if they finished third in the constructors.

The other thing against Yuki is Honda have cost Red Bull hundreds of millions to set up their own engine programme.

If Honda hadn’t flip-flopped with stay-leave-stay indecision they’d have been going into 2026 with Honda power and probably Yuki in the 2nd seat.

They may not feel obliged to placate Honda now.

Lawson now confirmed for 2nd Red Bull seat.

https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/liam-lawson-gets-2025-red-bull-seat/

the-muffin-manFull Member
Lawson now confirmed for 2nd Red Bull seat.

https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/liam-lawson-gets-2025-red-bull-seat/

Excellent

Lawson actually seems pretty robust so hopefully we’ll have some fireworks. Bet there’s a few choice words in Tsunado’s vicinity right now 🙂

Is Perez going to Torro Rosso or is he out completely?

Is Perez going to Torro Rosso or is he out completely?

He’s out, apparently. Isack Hadjar is heavily favoured to get the RB seat. There’s a good chance that Verstappen will leave in 2026 or 27 so I think Red Bull want to try to find two drivers capable of driving for the big team. Perez will never be that.