For those who ride the Hurtwood land on the Surrey hills…

There are some brilliant trail builders about here – Tatto dave, Simon from Nirvana, Haighhd2, Roger – I salute you all

Are you serious? Name one trail that goon was responsible for that’s any good?

I thought he just renamed over peoples trails or built sketchy as f*** stuff that had interior painted doors as part of the safety net to stop newbies falling into holes (Bury Hill)

I suppose there could be levels on insurance based on what level of cover you wanted to take out, but the key thing would be the removal of the liability from the landowner.

The minimum insurance level would cover the costs associated with retrieving you from his land if you had a bad accident – after all you would want someone to help you get to hospital if you piled on a run and bust both legs and some ribs, for example.

For example the footpath at the bottom of BKB which is clearly marked as no bikes yet 90% of people seem to ride anyway and **** everyone else

Got to agree with that. I really don’t understand why you’d be so bothered about 200m of flat track rather than the road if you’re heading to Peaslake, particularly if it’s one of the points of contention with locals.

Maybe it’s just me but I think this is the most depressing thread I’ve ever read on here.

With this level of aggression towards each other how long is it going to be before I see a fight on the trails? This sounds like arsehole surfers fighting over a wave.

I don’t see how you can prohibit people from riding trails built on public land. Nor can you can’t just close the trapdoor, pull up the ladder and say “sorry, this sport is full, no more beginners”. People become better riders by riding more difficult trails – they’ll screw it up at first but then learn.

One of the things that got me into riding in the first place was that it was that it was a friendly sport. This thread seems to reinforce the feeling I’ve had out at trail centres recently – that the sport has now succumbed to a lot of macho bullshit one upmanship.

The last time someone did some research around the Surrey Hills didn’t something like 90% of people on bikes classify themselves as ‘Freeriders’ 🙂

Without sounding like a complete hippie – can we go back to being nice to each other and riding our bikes?

dango – haha i thought so too, fair play if someones building bad stuff call them out about it. but at least hes trying.

tunerguy- i personally feel that liability is just a smoke screen/ excuse used by landowners.its good to see you thinking of ways around it. however in the uk we have the nhs who take you to hospital for free right? on a side note this eradication of risk and reliance on insurance is a symptom of modernity we should discourgae it. mtb is dangerous, life is dangerous. ppl need to take responsibilty for thier actions not rely on insurance.

Yes, but it might be difficult getting you off from some remote area of pitch – maybe needing a helicopter like those seen on Swinley on a reasonably regular basis.

With this level of aggression towards each other how long is it going to be before I see a fight on the trails?

I think there were studies on rats and population density. I must admit this is part of the reason why I give the N.Downs a miss that and driving up there. Although occasionally heading up there for a mid-week summer blast is good 🙂

mtb is dangerous, life is dangerous. ppl need to take responsibilty for their actions not rely on insurance.

Yep you don’t want Insurance co’s seeing a profit the next step will be enforced MTB legislation and every trip out on an MTB will be regarded as a dangerous sport.

and we will have to wear helmets…

that the sport has now succumbed to a lot of macho bullshit one upmanship.

can we go back to being nice to each other and riding our bikes?Oh God, yes please! All this sniping at novices is just ridiculous – apparently some people were just born riding Gods and were never beginners themselves.

But it is not sniping at novices, it is sniping at people with no respect for the trails, or for other people, like the guys who built the trail.

For instance at the jump gully at Swinley there are often novices piling down there on cheap bikes with no helmets, etc. That’s ok but they will expect the people around them to help pick them up or call for the warnden when they fail to ‘style’ a jump and land badly and end up a bloody mess. I don’t mind doing that if they have made their best effort to mitigate any such accident, but if they haven’t they are showing no respect to anyone else around.

You can take that to extremes though and it would still make as much sense. For example you could say that any rider riding for performance and falling off from time to time is being irresponsible.

If the guy is going to attempt something risky then he must take as many precautions as possible, then if he has an accident that is fair enough. Bit like leaving a route plan before going into the mountains so mountain rescue have a reasonable chance of finding someone and not wasting huge resources because the guy was negligent in his responsibilities.

I can just see the court case ‘Smith vs The Pitch Trail Pixies’.

Who exactly are they going to sue? The owners have taken reasonable steps to stop illicit trail building but it’s going to happen. So it’s a red herring, but I don’t get much of an impression of people being litigious or thinking anything other than that they are accountable for their actions. Let’s hope so.

And what exactly are the difficulties in getting injured people off any of the hills? It doesnt seem any more or any less difficult than anywhere else ‘rural’. I am sure one of the local rock stars will have a helipad somewhere if the rangers pickup or paramedics quad bike is not exciting enough.

simons_nicolai-uk

I think if you read through it again you will realise this thread is much more like a slightly contentious school governors or parish council meeting than hardcore surfers fighting. For a start most people can spell, and there has only been one rude word used. It’s the Interwebs nice people can talk big without having to worry about the consequences.

I do think more people could get off their bike and check out a trail before heading down it for the first time rather than realising halfway down its a bit trickier than they were expecting. That’s not calling anyone a numpty or saying they cant ride the trails, but just common sense.

Dango, you would be suprised

Plenty of the the original redlands stuff, grievous angel and reclemation on ranmore (2 great little trails)

i agree – not a great fan of his social skills or shop but at least he is out there building.

If the guy is going to attempt something risky then he must take as many precautions as possible.

But, quite rightly, there’s no ‘licence’ or ‘test’ for biking though – you just get a bike and go ride. We all did do stupid things when we started out* and you learn from the other people out on the trails. If they sneer at you as a ‘newbie’ where are you going to learn from?

land badly and end up a bloody mess.

Which hurts. Which is part of learning. So you either get better and stop hurting yourself so often or get thicker and carry on.

*says the man who ended up in crumpled heap last summer when out riding by himself.

I don’t see how you can prohibit people from riding trails built on public land

That’s a different argument. The Surrey Hills is not public land. Mountain biking is (up until now) enthusiastically supported by the landowners who not unreasonably, expect a say in what goes on. What may change this, is the unsanctioned trailbuilding that some riders STILL seem to want to indulge in to the detrement of us all. The ranger has better things to do than act as an enforcement officer and keep putting these unwanted trails “beyond use”. If it ever gets to the stage of the Bray family (for instance) simply giving up the whole thing as a lost cause because of these selfish idiots, then I suppose we can all become ramblers, because that’s going to be the only way we’ll be granted access.

Oh, and I find it depressing that despite this argument having been done exhaustively to death already, the “Look at me, I’m an Outlaw” brigade STILL HAVE NOT GOT THE POINT. 🙁

And what exactly are the difficulties in getting injured people off any of the hills?

Most trails are near any roads or open spaces – so you are going to have to guide the ambulance to the nearest access point and then guide the paramedics up some bridleway (hopefully) for maybe several miles at walking pace as they bring their stretcher and other kit – meanwhile the injured party is getting cold, bleeding, going into shock, etc. And then there is the return journey to the ambulance.

I helped a horse rider that was thrown a while ago and it took a long time to get the paramedics to her, and that was on the flat, pretty open Chobham common.

I do think more people could get off their bike and check out a trail before heading down it for the first time rather than realising halfway down its a bit trickier than they were expecting

I did that on the last dodgy looking trail I tried at Tunnel Hill, and then promptly faceplanted on it 🙁

Mr Woppit – I think we agree. Regardless of whether the trail should be there or not I was referring to the attitude of “I’ve built this trail on *land that does not belong to me and across which public trails exist which people are allowed to ride* and I’m pissed off that *people other than me* have had the cheek to find it and ride it.

Oh, and as far as Simon is concerned, the hills are not his personal “I’ll do as I bl**dy please” playground just because he happens to own a local bike shop.

In my opinion.

Mr Woppit

In my opinion you are exaggerating the threat posed by the cheeky trails a tad.

When I spoke to him the Ranger came across as far more concerned with A) the ugly and eroded endings to trails on Pitch – particularly where they are very visible to everyone or potentially bring us and other users together at speed B) selfish riding on footpaths particularly the one at the bottom of BKB. These are things which cause far more grief than a few ‘secret’ trails that cause no real conflict with other users of the hills and that only a few riders know about. Yes, he’d rather they did it somewhere else and it was someone else’s problem – but he’d much rather people didnt ride the footpath into Peaslake.

Fair enough (Puts away Angry Red-faced Colonel Moustache costume).

Mr Woppit:
Oh, and as far as Simon is concerned, the hills are not his personal “I’ll do as I bl**dy please” playground just because he happens to own a local bike shop.

Gotta agree there.

haighd2 – Member
dango – haha i thought so too, fair play if someones building bad stuff call them out about it. but at least hes trying.

If you are who I think you are, message me on FB sometime, hook up for a spin. 😉

Just got back from the hills, cold but not sloppy 🙂

Mr Woppit – so you have only ever ridden on Bridleways!!

As mountain bikers what we do is inherently selfish –
erosion
scare wildlife
litter (by some)
pollute

So best just to keep riding into the sunset and not worry about it to much 😛

I haven’t the vaguest idea what you’re talking about.

EDIT: Oh, I see. You’re suggesting it’s all a matter of degree… You may well be right, but as I have stood myself corrected, I think I’m now off of that particular argument with regard to my beloved Local Manor.

As to the sunset – sound advice, especially as mine is probably considerably closer than yours…

Toodle-pip!

but he’d much rather people didnt ride the footpath into Peaslake.

I seem to remember that that footpath isn’t very clear though – isn’t it a bit overgrown?

doubtful

TurnerGuy – Well it’s now overgrown in the sense that the Ranger has cut down a holly bush to try stop people riding it – but nothing would get the chance to grow on it much, it’s far too busy.

Even after he put some posts in which were too narrow to get most handlebars through people carried on riding it, then some people vandalised the posts.

It was far more of a PITA than going down the road but still it was ridden.

It’s crap really isn’t it?

If you are who I think you are, message me on FB sometime, hook up for a spin.

sounds good id be up for that but youll have to message me as i have no idea who you are!

it ever gets to the stage of the Bray family (for instance) simply giving up the whole thing as a lost cause because of these selfish idiots, then I suppose we can all become ramblers, because that’s going to be the only way we’ll be granted access.

lets give the owners some credit im sure they dont think they could simply ban riders from thier land how would that work there would still be public rights of way. i cant see them going down that route thier sir name is Bray not Canute

winterfold- yes it is crap i know of the path in question and i dont know why anyone would bother riding down it.

Consider these as questions and not opinions as some of you are clearly better versed in the subject than me.

Is it just a simple case of overuse? the area has a reputation. it attracts people from all over and all skill levels. BKB has become an Acronym for a reason. There is some fantastic riding to be had all over Surrey, ok some of it might not be as “big” as some of the stuff on Hurtwood but if you look hard enough you can find sweet badger engineered singletrack only passable in the right season on land that the land owner might never know is being used for this purpose.

Do trail builders build “blue” stuff too? if so I applaud you as this may encourage new riders to learn their trade away from the bigger stuff, enthuse them about the sport and become better and have less impact. s

Some of the best trails out there are not the biggest, fastest etc. but they are the most flowing and rewarding trails that can flatter you if you get them right and teach you if you get them wrong.

<sits back and waits for the lecture> 😉

Blimey, now that it’s been pointed out, this really is one of the most depressing threads going.

We’re adults; we ride bicycles for recreation; we do it in the mud; whilst out there we’re wearing, frankly, awful-looking clothes, what ever your ‘discipline’; and then we argue about it on the internet.

I honestly despair for the human race sometimes. Get over yourselves, you lot (including me) and get a life. Ride your bike, worry not and take everything a bit less seriously.

These are your orders.

Yours faithfully,
Some anonymous pompus nob (sic) on the internet.

There are some brilliant trail builders about here – Tatto dave, Simon from Nirvana, Haighhd2, Roger – I salute you all

Are you serious? Name one trail that goon was responsible for that’s any good?

I thought he just renamed over peoples trails or built sketchy as f*** stuff that had interior painted doors as part of the safety net to stop newbies falling into holes (Bury Hill)

Errrr… Windy Willows, Reformation, Grievous Angel, Foot and Mouth, Wave of Mutilation, Abba Zabba/Blind Terror, Hot Burrito, Becky’s Bush…. shall I go on?

Yes, but it might be difficult getting you off from some remote area of pitch – maybe needing a helicopter like those seen on Swinley on a reasonably regular basis.

Though the frequency of them on Swinley is more down to the fact the place attracts novices who then promptly try the jumps and Labyrinth sections without any skills.

Surrey Hills is generally ridden by relatively local types who’ve moved up from tame places like Swinley. There are tourists who come for a day to try it out but they session Barry’s and the like and can’t find most the stuff on Pitch without a guide.

Been involved with a few recoveries from the hills now, and generally it’s not too bad so long as you can direct the ambulance to one of the car parks. Good thing about Hurtwood is they are numbered. Leith is more tricky but they do have names. Usually they send the rapid response car, and they can assess the situation quickly, and deal with most of the typical stuff.

I still think what we need in this country is something like a national permit system with insurance built in. Landowners could opt into the scheme, we pay for the permit, which would absolve the landowner of any (or most) liability, the permit is an agreement that we take all the risks, and the insurance element would be to cover costs of recovery from private land and any potential disruption to the landowner.

Probably unworkable, but if we had something along these lines, more landowners would be happy for MTB activities, and the scheme could also be used to encourage and educate about responsible riding.

Anyway, what’s going on here? Not sure why so much anger. Let’s just get out there and ride, enjoy the hills, and work with the locals and landowners. Annoying each other and the locals is just going to result in being kicked off the land.