For those who ride the Hurtwood land on the Surrey hills…

well there is already. Tilgate, Rogate etc.

“Im assuming it is what the riders who keep building masses of woodwork and huge jumps want though.

I was attempting to suggest a solution to eliminate the issue around these riders who tend to be the ones the landowner/public notice the most”

I know you were, I was perhaps rather pointlessly trying to add another side toward anyone seeing that idea and going with it (on this thread) as an ‘only’ type solution

Im a strong advocate of illegal trail building because as has been pointed out, without it we would have nothing but bridleways. However recently and for the first time in 2 years i went up to the trail commonly known as ‘proper bo’ (which when we originally built it in 2003 was known as Rad Lanehttp://www.pinkbike.com/photo/64181/). And i must say the level of erosion is depressing. I feel ashamed that something i originally made has turned into this destructive eyesore. However the irony is that if hurtwood control had’nt burned down the northshore we built up there the trail would be in a significantly better state than it is now partly because the standard of woodwork was high enough to dissuade bad/ xc cyclists, partly because it kept people off the floor and partly because there would still be a dedicated crew of trail builders maintain it who would never have let it get as bad as it has.

As far as im aware this trail is not an officially sanctioned trail ? But the problem is once its been created irrespective of whether the dangerous , outrageous, stunts jumps and berms get destroyed by the authorities it virtually impossible to stop other riders continuing to use it as ‘singletrack’. Theres only so many ways you can block something without destroying what it is your trying to save.
Thus the actions of the authorities in these cases almost always follow a pattern; they attempt to shut down a trail completely by removing anything fun/interesting that may be on it. this alienates the builders who give up and move on to a fresh/hidden spot but it dosnt stop the flow of shit weekend warriors who drag their brakes, ride it in the pissing rain and never even contemplate doing ‘manual labour’. All the while the builders are doing their work elsewhere until that is stopped too and they move on again and so the circle of destruction continues.
it seems to me this thread although somewhat balanced is a witch hunt against who ever it is that is building interesting stuff in the area. Its been framed as the concerned conservationist landowner and the sensible middle aged xc riders against the irresponsible young tear away dh riding trails builders. When in fact the trail builder and the land owner probably have the same interests at heart
1 to limit trail usage
2 to limit erosion
3 to not have people riding in the wet
4 to keep the trails secret and out of slight of other users
5 and most importantly to maintain a thin and sustainable trail with a hard wearing trail surface, most trail builders hate to come back and find skid marks and blown out berms.

The real villain of this situation is the weekend warrior city boy xc cyclist who doesn’t have time/ commitment for trail building / maintenance and yet knowingly rides illegal trails and trails that used to be illegal with a sense of entitlement and superiority whilst simultaneously opposing and condemning the actions of those prepared to work on the trails. What’s worse is that they often do this in the name of liability/ conservation or whatever but generally its because they consciously or sub consciously know they could never ride the more progressive stuff thats being built these days and so they have no hesitation in condemning it.
I don’t have any answers here all i can say is what i will do and that is to continue secretly building in other areas where land mangers have less resources to focus on trail destruction or perhaps amore open minded approach and i will refrain from building northshore ladders as they are too easily seen and destroyed. All the politics is bs and essentially get you nowhere other than producing more bkb style trails which only exacerbate the problem by attracting more numptys.

So many double standards in the post above!

You joined just to post that? You sound like a bit of an elitist moron, move on somewhere else if you feel so strongly, I doubt you’ll be missed!

To be fair there’s a few sensible points there about trying to persuade people not to be riding in the wet and riding without due consideration to the impact of the sheer weight of riders in the Surrey Hills. And also about the acceptance by many that the trails will exist for them by other people doing the work.
Where i disagree is that we should build trails on other people’s land. Especially Hurtwood where they’re doing a huge amount to remain open and engaged with the biking community. Sadly when I helped out on the trail building days, it was the same usual suspects…

haighd2, well said mate 😀

haighd2 – good points well made. Rad lane is screwed 🙁

The main problem with North Shore stuff (and I loved the ewok village HaighD2 is talking about / built) is that it’s a nightmare for landowners.

The original got chainsawed because of liability -little jimmy falls off and mummy sues the landowner. As soon as the ranger found it, he was obliged to put it beyond use, regardless of whether he liked it or not. From a conversation I had with the then ranger, I gather he was rather impressed by it, by the way.

It’s now got to the point where little Jimmy’s mum gets kicked out of court, but the insurance companies are still willing to have a pop to recoup the money they have to pay out to people who claim unemployment insurance while busted up. There’s good reason for this: fighting these cases is expensive, so most landowner’s insurers would rather cough up than face a long and expensive court case which they’ll be unlikely to receive costs for even if they win. From the point of view of the self insurers, like the Forestry Commission, which is a government org, the money is fairly irrelevant – payouts come from the taxpayer – but the amount of ranger time spent gathering evidence for a half day in court is prohibitive.

So yes, HaighD2, you’re kind right there -the landowner wants nice thing trails that keep their shape. Hence the new ending to BKB, which was professionally built. That’s the standard they look for for high-traffic trails, because that’s the stuff that holds up against numpty riding. Basically, a trail centre trail.

We can’t get away from the fact that there are a lot more people on bikes, and a lot more novices than ever before. We can get all territorial and exclude DFLs, but that wouldn’t be terribly fair – it’s not our land, after all. What we can do, and what a bunch of us actually did, was try and make known trails tougher, to cope with the extra traffic that was already there.

We can’t limit the spread of information – specifically about trails in the Surrey Hills. The secret is already out, and there’s no way of making the hills anonymous again. I sure as hell don’t want a trail centre on my doorstep – and for what it’s worth, various professional trail builders have told the landowners around here that they shouldn’t do this either. The Surrey Hills is unique.

Perhaps rather than bitching about north shore / londoners / trail centres / xc numpties, how about coming up with some suggestions of how to reach a compromise between landowners and bikers? They’re pretty damn receptive these days.

Some people seem to feel that their version of mountain biking is the one true path, sounds almost religious and a bit sad to be honest. Numpty, shit weekend warriors, weekend warrior city boy xc cyclist??? Lovely use of inclusive language. I’ve been on trail maintenance, learned a lot and repair where I can to keep it sustainable. I’ve been riding there for 20 years and although certain people and things do make me smile inwardly I like the fact that all kinds of people are out on bikes having fun, we all had to learn once and some of us still are. You sound a bit like you’d take your ball and go home if you could…

Well said, Jools. 🙂

Everyone is making some fair points

I think it will need the builders of the more tech and difficult stuff to come out and a way of keeping less advanced riders (like me) off the more difficult stuff to be found for it to be a workable compromise.

Of course less capable riders can always get off and have a look before riding a ‘new’ trail but that seems like uncommon common sense…

It’s sad that the guy who built Proper Beau is now ashamed of it 🙁 I slagged off the multiple ugly endings to it earlier in the thread but there is an element of getting off and having a look before deciding to have a go at it that seems to be missing. It would be horrible for Hurtwood if it had to have loads of signs and warnings up because of legal or h&s concerns.

Are we entirely sure that everyone thinks a trail centre is a bad idea? I dont want one there, but I have heard (bloke in pub style admittedly) that some people do think it is a good idea…

Wow, sounds like a bit of a mess…

If I were still in London, these would be closest to my local trails, so kinda sad to hear of all the issues.

One of the things we’ve been doing here in Aus lately (I do a bit of work for IMBA Aus and am involved in plenty of local stuff) is give the land managers an example they can relate to easily to understand the situation given 99% are not MTBers.

We use skate parks. Every suburb (here anyway…) seems to have a skate park of some greater or lesser extent. This is your constructed, designed trail network. It has small features for beginners – green trails – mid-size and large (blue and black) for those who’ve progressed further. This gives everyone a place to go legally and find something for them, even if not the be all and end all.

It won’t stop certain people using natural features – footpaths for MTB, the town hall steps for Skate – or making their own (building new trails for MTB, using pallets for a sketchy transfer for skate ). However, although there are still the odd few issues with skating, it’s not heaps of skaters getting chased by security as it used to be. The same can be said for MTB if the facilities are provided

The same will theoretically happen with MTB, if the facilities are provided. The other point to emphasis with this was that skaters weren’t/aren’t trying to actively destroy the handrails on the stairs that they’re grinding, they just want that type of experience, however foreign it may be to the non-skaters. MTB is again comparable; some people want ladders and big drops – if we actually provide some of this – and not all “sanitised” trail centre trails – then folks won’t have to build it themselves (usually where its not wanted!) and cause as much drama to the land owner, becuase it’ll be on their terms to a degree.

The other thing here seems to also be what you guys are asking for and accepting. You need to go bigger. Just because they are more reasonable than other land managers shouldn’t mean you shouldn’t be prepared to push for what is wanted/needed, but instead just settle for the crumbs they do throw you. Sure take those to keep going, but don’t forget to keep asking for more.

If your kid says ” Daddy, I want a Pony!” not many are lucky enough to get an “ok, sure” response. However, the nagging continues and eventually you and the kid settle on a dog. You don’t have the ££££s wasted on a pony an all the stabling and mucking out at 5am, but the kid does have a pet and some of the ownership and responsibility that goes with it. A compromise, sure, but one that is workable for both parties.

Bear in mind Ramblers etc have used these type of tactics for years to get to where they are now – and they are a lot better off than us with regards to access and trails.

So. I aint good with long paragraphs etc.

What is happening? People are building stuff there?

Why? Can’t they just enjoy the sweet flowing singletrack for what it is?

Why spoil it for others?

haighd2, this is for you.

Short version: you’re a massive pillock EDIT: that was perhaps not so well thought out; ‘deluded moron’ is probably a more accurate phrase.

Long version: at the start of your post I thought “ah, now here’s a writer worth reading – someone who’s actually doing some diggin’ and putting in some love!”

Then a few little phrases crept out, as has been mentioned, along the lines of:

bad/ xc cyclists … other riders … shit weekend warriors … weekend warrior city boy xc cyclist

and I realised that you’re the sort of rider who thinks they’re a white knight in shining body armour, championing biker access and promoting the building of better trails whereas you’re actually one of those “elitist morons” (to borrow the perfect phrase) who turns up on the hills, unloads their bike and completely snubs every other rider out there. In fact, though it probably wasn’t you, it was certainly a group of your ilk who snubbed my cheery hello as I rode through one of the carparks round there last week.
 

As an aside, I say hi to everyone I pass on the hills (ooh, get me, what an unusual thing to do): walkers, horseriders, families and especially other bikers. Elderly hikers are cautious, parents bring their children close when bikers ride by, but almost everyone smiles when greeted – that acknoledgement that we’re all out on the hills for fresh air, lovely views and, well, fun. Can you guess which group of hill-users is most likely to ignore a hail from someone on a rigid bike with no kneepads and who looks as if he’s perhaps not taking riding around in the mud quite seriously enough…? The answer may have been alluded to above.

I may have veered from the subject slightly; I actually wanted to make a point that anyone who thinks trails like Barry Knows Best are a bad thing, because they attract more riders to the hills, cannot possibly have the best interests of the wider mountain biking society at heart.

haighd2, I appreciate your trail building craft: it’s likely that sanctioned trails would never have come to pass without years of cheeky trails before them, but your attitude to other riders will only win you support from the likes of Dango & Ewan up there. Everyone else (or “numpties” as we’re apparently known) will see you for what you are and conclude that we don’t want you on our ‘side’ as you’ll never actually give a damn about anyone other than your particular clique.

---

As for the ‘trail centre’ idea: is it actually all that bad? From the ones I’ve been to it seems what you get is jolly well-built trails that resist erosion and, more importantly, are graded so that everyone knows what sort of level to expect. Mums and dads with their kids pootle along on the green and blue trails, numpty weekend warriors cruise around on the red trails (whilst contemplating the blacks) and the “real” riders (I’m talking about you, haighd2, baby) have orange areas to hone their skills.
Is that really so bad?

the best interests of the wider mountain biking society

What is this society of which you speak ?
All I see is loads of DFLs ‘rocking up’ on a Sunday morning, skanking the trails for a couple of hours then beggaring off back home.

it’s likely that sanctioned trails would never have come to pass without years of cheeky trails before them

More than ‘likely’ there would be little or no mtb ‘scene’ without the efforts of the cheeky builders and the ‘numpties’ would still be spinning their bling round Richmond Park of a Sunday

What is this society of which you speak ?

Anyone who rides a bike, grouped together in a ‘society’ to distinguish them from those people who have explicitly stated that they couldn’t care less if anyone else has places to ride, i.e., haighd2.

Not sure what this ‘scene’ is of which you speak, Hilldodger, but I am sure that there would be plenty of people on bicycles cycling up and down the Surrey Hills’ bridleways with or without trails. Don’t misunderstand me: I love bermy trails, but there are other elements to mountain biking which I’ve no doubt we all enjoy.

Not sure what this ‘scene’ is of which you speak

The ‘scene’ is here, aka talking about something rather than just doing it 😉

but I am sure that there would be plenty of people on bicycles cycling up and down the Surrey Hills’ bridleways with or without trails

I agree totally, but there would certainly not be carparks full of high end cars carrying high end bikes ridden by high end twerps yahooing and high fiving everytime they managed to not fall off.

“futon river crossing – So many double standards in the post above!”
“njee20 – You joined just to post that? You sound like a bit of an elitist moron, move on somewhere else if you feel so strongly, I doubt you’ll be missed!”

Ah name calling when you don’t agree, stay classy sandiego. I joined this forum because it thought you guys where having a relatively sensible debate about trail access in my local area. If you’re a fan of childish name calling I think its you that should move on.

Elitist, yes that’s pretty much my point we should be elitist and keep the good stuff secret. Yes I have double standards and that’s because unlike others here im not proposing some grand narrative or overriding moral code of conduct about what land owners/ riders should be doing. Im just saying it how I see it and that means inevitably there are contradictions. Its not fair that ppl ride stuff that I build without helping and its not fair that landowners have stuff built illegally on their land but short of razor wire fence and armed guards these things will go on and both parties will just have to accept that. Im not saying hurtwood should do this or that, im just saying what im going to do. Im not even saying they were wrong to knock down radlane or freebourne’s ‘holey trail’. I understand the reasons they did it but it hasn’t solved the problem of erosion or more illegal trail building has it. Also id point out hiding behind liability issues is a cowards way out its an excuse that landowners use to add weight o their argument. All liability issues can be avoided if there is sufficient rider commitment and a willing landowner. Look at wisely. Anyway id love to know the stats on successful land owner payouts to riders of illegal trails (in the uk)? Maybe the trainee lawyer can help here? Having said that it is the owners prerogative to do as they please on their own land if they want rid of a trail then so be it. I accept that. What im saying is that a) that trail is never going to be fully gone and b) all that will happen is builders go elsewhere. The problem dosnt go away.

Someone said earlier ‘what gives trail builders the right to build on private land?’ ‘how would they like it if I built something int heir garden?’. The answer is if I had a garden/ could afford my own house and you built mtb jumps/trails in it id be stoked. Also its not a fair comparison between a domestic garden and a large ish estate . But in all seriousness the real answer to these questions is trails builders are not in the right but what land owners need to understand is not everyone respects the rules. some people have watched fight club one too many times. Some people just go and take what they want and ultimately you cant stop them. This isn’t right or just but it is a fact.

Joolsburgerb –
I respect all types of mtb riding (even trials) this isnt really an interdiscipline thing I recognize that there are a lot of xc riders who are skilled and have the right attitude to trails. Having said that in my experience people who build/maintain trails are usually more freeride/dh types although there are exceptions. What im really saying is what type of riding your doing be it xc dh or whatever that’s not really the issue. the issue is people who don’t put anything back into the scene in terms of graft. Anyone who has a dig ride ratio worse than 40:60 needs to accept that they are part of the problem.

winterfold – I agree signs are ugly and over used already. Trail centres are like nuclear power stations, they are often a good idea but none wants one in their back yard.

langy – I hear what your saying and at the moment it seem like the people representing riders in the surrey are treating mtb like a homogenous single entity who all have the same wants. Here, unlike in the issue of trail maintenance and trail respect, riding disciple is an issue and getting the authorities to understand the distinctions between sub groups and their various wants is the way forward. Possibly. Im not fussed im just going to keep hoping my latest trails don’t get too popular.

The point I really want to drive home is rights or wrongs are irrelevant. People are going to continue building steep trails / jumps/ drops and theres nothing that can be done to stop this. Landowners will prob continue knocking things down when its too ugly/ dangerous or erosive. People will continue raping trails with no consideration for the environment / builders. In 30 years when our Chinese over lords turn the whole area into high rise they aren’t going to give two hoots about any of this.

Hmmm…

So the amount of time you can afford to spend riding and the car you drive is an indication of your level of seriousness and riding ability.

Envy is such an ugly thing. Personally high fives and smiles all round make me smile. But then I’m not a ****.

I will add I am all for trail building and completely understand your desire to push limits and ride stuff that you find fun and a challenge the problem is simply that in the Surrey Hills care needs to be taken and the landowners wishes respected, surely the big stuff on Leith is enough to keep you happy? That’s a good 20 foot step down over there just for starters…

dig:ride ratio of 40:60.

What a crock – think how many trails there’d be if everyone did that!

Claiming some sort of ownership over “your” trail? It is much better to ride a trail that already exists than make another one for fear of upsetting the digger!

As far as I can see you built a trail, and people have ridden it, and now it’s looking a bit sorry. And?

Its only ‘your trail’ if the landowner agrees and lets you build a specific trail and even then they’d probably frown if you claimed ‘ownership’
😆

I’m a Trust member and I’m against a trail centre because it would mean (almost certainly) someone who didn’t build the trails coming and making money of the back of it and acting like they own the place. It would have to be a pretty community minded proposal for me to think it would be an improvement on the status quo – ie one with hardly any profit in.

It’s a bit of a messy compromise the way it is at the moment, but it’s organic and real, and we’re Brits – we’re great at messy compromises so we can muddle through.

hora – the Ranger seems to think there is new stuff being built (or maybe just becoming more known about) but wasn’t particularly specific as you can imagine. His main concern is sorting out the obvious eyesores and fall lines to stop erosion and people crashing onto fire roads or car parks. He seems to know cheeky building is unstoppable and just wishes it happened on Leith and Winterfold so it was someone else’s problem 🙂

mr murdoch was the incident you speak off at redlands car park on coldharbour lane last sunday between 12 and 3 if so it could well have been us. In our defence if you ride off before a reply can be uttered then you only have yourself to blame.

Again I would reiterate what ive said above about name calling lets not get personal.

I don’t see myself as a white night I don’t dig for recognition And on the whole I dont get involved in trail access debates with landowners. I dig for myself so I have something to enjoy. if other people want to ride it then fine I cant stop them anyway so there’s no point getting bent out of shape.

What I would say though is your right I dont really give a damn about other people, i am selfish, if they want something to ride they should provide it for themselves. I dont think im an amazing rider I know there are a lot better in this area when I say we should be elitist I mean in terms of building commitment rather than riding ability. Lets keep things local and low key. However riding ability should come into it a bit difficult features should be used to warn off riders who have no business on that trail. if I found a line I was too pussy to ride I would leave it alone note it down and come back and ride it when I had grown a pair I wouldn’t build a pussy out line round it or skid up and down the lip or run about on it. Or cut the landing away or fill the gap in. why does everything have to be to the level of the lowest common denominator? People who do this kind of thing are causing yet more trails to be built.

no 40 60 is good think about how well maintained the traisl would be if everyone did that

So the amount of time you can afford to spend riding and the car you drive is an indication of your level of seriousness and riding ability.

id dont know what you mean by that. who mentioned cars? EDIT i see that hill dodger did my bad

As far as I can see you built a trail, and people have ridden it, and now it’s looking a bit sorry. And?

maybe i should go back and fix it? but im not inclined to as everything we put into it was torn down/ flattened. when we left it i assumed it would become over grown and was urprised to find it was being used as single track.

joolsburger – Member
But then I’m not a ****

#

And so once again we descend from discussion to insults, are you sure you’re not a ****

haighd2

couple of points – there is quite a lot of willingness among riders (just from this forum there are plenty, mostly locals) to put some effort into maintaining the existing/sanctioned network – but that has not been translated into meaningful effort because of a lack of organisation. Apparently this is being sorted. In the meantime if something obviously needs doing eg draining people could just get off their bikes and do something about it – the Ranger would much rather we did this than rode round it and made the trail bigger or create a new line. Ultimately some ‘sanitisation’ of the existing network would probably be to the advantage of the cheeky builders as if those trails are more sustainable people are less likely to look elsewhere and come across the ‘secret’ stuff.

Just from the point of view of someone who lives in the area (ish) I much prefer the more natural look and feel of the freeride trails er to the West of the area to the more obviously built stuff with concrete etc on Leith. I can see why those trail pixies come out.

Lets keep things local and low key.

Building cheeky trails on land where riders are allowed access by the landowner/trust arent exactly the low key way of doing things. Local is a very relative term in that part of the southeast.

POV from someone who grew up just the other side of the A3

Haighhd2 does raise some very valid points and I tend to agree with him.

RIDING IN THE RAIN AND WINTER IS KILLING OUR TRAILS.

Without him and the like the Surrey Hills would not be the riding honeypot that it is now – he is almost his own worst enemy for all that hard work put in to Rad Lane, Freebore etc.

Please continue building the steep stuff 😉

There are some brilliant trail builders about here – Tatto dave, Simon from Nirvana, Haighhd2, Roger – I salute you all

Those weekend warriors you talk about don’t have time to find the good stuff….let them trash Rad Lane and Barrys

Loving the dig:ride ratio! PMSL.

Ignoring the silliness.

There is a lot of challenging stuff over on Leith on the east face. I’m sure some of the stuff I’ve ridden over there is a bit cheeky but it’s also low traffic so I hardly see anyone when I’m there perhaps for some that may be a better option than Pitch which is obviously contentious right now.

This issue really boils down to popularity and the easily found sanctioned stuff is used by lots of people and is obviously in need of repair in places. However it’s also a working wood and essentially a big tree farm so the talk of erosion and natural versus built doesn’t resonate with me look at what the logging does eyesore wise. In that regard I’m all for more work to create and maintain trails in the ilk of Barrys etc which despite being disregarded by the hard core are still bloody good trails and fun to ride at speed.

I am given to understand that the real issue is one of liability for injury, not only when Jeff from accounts over cooks it on something beyond his skill but more so from people riding the bridleways and more accessible public areas in an irresponsible way. Sadly there is no easy cure for that other than having a word with people when you see it. For example the footpath at the bottom of BKB which is clearly marked as no bikes yet 90% of people seem to ride anyway and **** everyone else..

Maybe it would be better if bikes had to pay a nominal daily or annual fee for trail upkeep a la Swinley. Then subsequently trails were more clearly way marked and those with issues of erosion were managed and that something could be worked out with the landowners that allowed for a loonies area of DH and freeridey stuff or allowed for more expert lines to be created in parallel to the existing runs. This would require a lot of good communication beween us and the landowners and that seems a bit out of kilter with this underground ideal that some people have. I think it would be better if cheeky trails didn’t have to be rebuilt all the time and the only way to get people on side and not destroying your good work is to work with them otherwise it will always be this way.

wow easy on the compliments there nick, i only have a 40:60 ratio because i dig dirt jumps the majority of the time and ive only prob built one trail every two years up on the hills.

There is a lot of challenging stuff over on Leith on the east face

Sssssshhhhhhh!

Anyone who has a dig ride ratio worse than 40:60 needs to accept that they are part of the problem.

This statement has made me properly lol on an otherwise dull lunch break. Thanks.

Yes sorry that was dim…

Nah, plenty of room for everyone, people need to relax, we’re all doing it for the same reason.

Maybe the issue here is just respect for the trails – the goal being to ride a trail with as little impact as possible (skids are for kids, etc).

So no matter whether the trail was built or not, people should not ride it if they are going to damage it – which covers riding all trails when it is too muddy for them, or ridding built trails when your skill level isn’t enough to manage the trail without damaging it (too much).

The name-calling of these less-skilled riders attempting stuff they shouldn’t is not too dissimilair to to cursing of skiers and showboarders coming down some sweet black run and scrapping all the snow from it because they can’t take the fall line.

Any maybe mtbers should be forced to take out some form of insurance to ride so they landowner is not faced with a potential liability problem. After all you have to take specific insurance to go off-piste skiing, or be faced with a potentially big bill. If I fall off on a black it is my problem, not the ski resorts problem for pisting a run that was too steep.

i was with you till you started talking about insurance. riders insurance is going to be prohibitively expensive?
i dont seee whats funny about 60:40 ride:dig some people who build dirt jumps are prob operating at 20:80.

Haighd2, Dango and Ewan couldnt agree more with you. As one of the two builders of the ‘T’ series, XP, the ‘original’ BKB line and numerous other trails in the area, its depressing seeing the trails in such a poor state. We would regularly go up and spend many hours fixing trails, removing deliberate trail debris, re-routing straight lined corners! prior to going out for a ride only to go back during the week and to fix it all again. Why some riders want to straight line through twisty singletrack is beyond me.

All the trails we have built in the past have been pure singletrack with very few obstacles and once the trail was finished we would quite often let other riders know where they were for ALL to enjoy. Although we were the builders of many of the ‘cheeky’ trails, looking at the current situation up at Holmbury/Pitch I am against any new trails being built and time should be spent maintaining what already there.

Dandylineandmurdoch, I realy feel for you, it must of been so upsetting not getting a response to your cheery ‘hello’ you realy do sound like a pompus nob.