Flat out wrong search and rescue content

You would be surprised just what conditions they currently operate in out on the north sea oil platforms.

You’d also be surprised how easy it is for weather to ground civilllian aircraft / pilots. Although hopefully the search and rescue choppers and crews will be a bit fancier than our offshore taxis.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive/incredible-rescue-by-raf-25032013

Regardless of whoever ends up doing this sort of thing, I think we should just be grateful that somebody does it…

The SAR pilots could be recruited from the RAF but there are dozens of highly skilled rotorcraft pilots in the civvie world already, all the police chase helicopters are piolted by civvies for example as are air ambulances.

I dont see the fuss myself, take away the emotive issue and it makes perfect sense. I think people assume there will be a big cosy office somewhere and a man with a radio controlling who gets rescued and what the charge will be if it is deemed a just cause…

“Auntie Doris in flip flops on Snowdon in December?, right Dave, fire up the chopper and lets make some money, dont go too fast, its sunday, we can claim overtime….” or “some frenchman on a trawler with a cut on his head in an atlantic storm? not likely, its the semi final of the snooker in ten minutes……i mean, would love to go but the choppers in for a service”

Its about time SAR was privatised. The cost of training military to be used as SAR is just not cost effective and provides no real benefit.

Really? Justification/evidence please? Oh sorry, forgot this is STW… It is both cost effective and provides real benefit – just because they are perfroming SAR duties in a largely civilian environment does not mean the skills learnt are not transferrable to combat operations. Anyhow, you seem to have missed the history bit – the SAR force was originally created to be exactly that, Search and Rescue, because a requirement was identified for a military capability to rescue downed aircrew. Albeit of military crews, the assistance to civilian emergencies came as a real-life training benefit.

The SAR force also provides a capability beyond SAR, without going in to too much detail, such as reinforcement to Police, particularly for short notice expedient, logistic support, eg. rapid deployment of Armed Response teams (eg. Derrick Bird in Cumbria), where the Force helis cannot meet the task.

Military pilots, ground crew etc are trained for combat operations and then SAR. We want our pilots manning the military helicopters on exercises and operations. They recieve escape and evasion training, weapon training, military exrrcises to test tactics etc. All skills not actually required for SAR.

For the ground crew it makes not a jot of difference whether they are maintaining a SAR heli or a nice green one, although maintenance of the SAR fleet is largely contractorised now anyway… As for the pilots, having experience flying in both SAR helis, as a former MR team member, and in green ones on ops, as a Serviceman, I can say categorically that the skills the SAR pilots pick up transfer directly to the skills required for combat ops, especially the ability to fly low and fast in tight country, or Nap of the Earth as it’s known.

Anyway, so far it’s been interesting to note that Bristows have remained very tightlipped – there has been little, if any, comment on the award of the contract or, more importantly, any kind of campaign to assuage the the kinds of concerns being expressed here and elsewhere.

PS Not so sure TUPE applies to Service personnel…

IIRC the Coastguard SAR helicopters are already outsourced.

Indeed and I’ve never heard any suggestion that their crew were any less committed, effective or able than their military colleagues – as a result.

the rail system is faster, more efficient and more reliable after privatisation.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Come and try the Norwich London line and see how that stacks up. Using rolling stock that GWR pensioned off, pantographs that can’t maintain a connection in a bit of a blow or if it rains.

Ha ha ha ha ha.

Trolling zoofighter. (With apologies to Glupton).

Just Googled the AW189 as well – looks like a slightly stretched Lynx/Wildcat, neither of which are renowned for heaps of cabin space (think of a space about 6 feet by 6 feet and filled with a door gunner and 8 fully kitted Infantrymen having to sit on their kit on the deck of the cabin – no room for seats or safety belts). So how you’d fit winch kit, winch operator, winchman, casualty on stretcher plus much else in one of those could be interesting…

I think the rail privatisation thing differs very much line-by-line.

The line I use almost exclusively is First Great Western from Paddington to Hobbit land, via the shires.

Over the last 10 years of weekly use I think Ive been delayed less than 1% of my journeys and only had a couple of cancellations to deal with. Single track stretches have been reinstated to pre-Beeching twin track and station platforms re-commissioned and refurbished.
Admittedly we’re still bombing around on HST (125s) trains but they’re comfortable and have a buffet car. And my return ticket works out at 22p per mile. I like my railway line.

Come and try the Norwich London line

No thanks, rather go to somewhere that’s interesting!

Who goes to Norwich anyway? 😯 There’s a reason all the crap that no one else got went to that line.

Dave – http://www.agustawestland.com/product/aw189 – 16 seater in standard configuration. I am sure in SAR mode they will fit everything in.

Nope, my post has been done to death. So edited out.

Dave – http://www.agustawestland.com/product/aw189 – 16 seater in standard configuration. I am sure in SAR mode they will fit everything in.

They already run SAR from Portland and Lee with these helos… One stretcher at a time though in them, no space for 2.

I’m surprised if they can only carry one patient in a aw189

The ambulance service I’m working with have a Bolkow 105 which is considerably smaller. Admittedly limited rescue kit, and only ever 3 on board inc patient. Awkward shape I guess?

Dave – http://www.agustawestland.com/product/aw189 – 16 seater in standard configuration. I am sure in SAR mode they will fit everything in.

They already run SAR from Portland and Lee with these helos… One stretcher at a time though in them, no space for 2.

And Lynx/Wildcat supposedly 9 seater. Only if you actually ripped out the seats and safety harnesses and everybody sat on their kit though! And the 9 included the door gunner. Made it fun when the pilots decided to do G-drops – Vomit Comet eat your heart out!

Its pretty tight in them. Stretcher only really works length ways and has to be in the middle of the rear body. Space for others to sit in but all quite cramped

Dave – http://www.agustawestland.com/product/aw189 – 16 seater in standard configuration. I am sure in SAR mode they will fit everything in.
They already run SAR from Portland and Lee with these helos… One stretcher at a time though in them, no space for 2.

139, not 189.

A quick google suggests 4 casualties of which 2 are in stretchers.

189’s according to Gov.uk … That said they are quite likely to have got it wrong eh 😆

There seems to be an assumption that in the future the SAR pilots won’t have the same level of training as the current R Navy and Airforce SAR pilots.

I’m sure I read somewhere that Bristow already carry out a fair amount of the training of UK military helicopter pilots. Given that is the case perhaps military pilots might be ‘outsourced’ to Bristow to fly SAR as part of their development.

This is the same Bristows that services all the Oil and Gas rigs out in the North Sea?..Presume those pilots have seen some “weather” and have probably taken some risks accordingly.

I would likewise imagine that one of the primary motivations is avoiding the financial black hole that is MOD equipment procurement. But this will remove one of justifications for the RAF having a separate helicopter capability and I wonder if it will presage its demise.

EDIT: Seems will happen automatically as all other helicopters are in JHC.

189’s according to Gov.uk … That said they are quite likely to have got it wrong eh

yep,looking like a misquote – http://www.chcsar.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=34&Itemid=44&phpMyAdmin=1a72e6f506aeb0dbd6875cf08c1214af

189’s according to Gov.uk … That said they are quite likely to have got it wrong eh

yep,looking like a misquote – http://www.chcsar.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=34&Itemid=44&phpMyAdmin=1a72e6f506aeb0dbd6875cf08c1214af

Not a mis-quote, AW139 in use in New South Wales as per your link but, as per this link to Augusta Westland’s website, AW189 destined for the UK…

I’m sure I read somewhere that Bristow already carry out a fair amount of the training of UK military helicopter pilots. Given that is the case perhaps military pilots might be ‘outsourced’ to Bristow to fly SAR as part of their development.

Basic training yes, routine post-qualification currency training no – you’ll not see a Bristows pilot sat in the cockpit next to Wills (or any other SAR pilot for that matter).

Yup… my bad 139’s at the moment being replaced with 189’s… I’ll get my coat 😳 Long day!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/mar/26/uk-search-rescue-selloff-turbulence

If it delivers the better, faster, same price promise then I’m all for it. It remains to be seen whether it’ll fail to deliver on 1, 2 or all 3 of those points though.

It’s not wrong just cheaper.

I this the same Bristows whose helicopters seem to drop into the North sea quite often years ago when taking crew to oil rigs?

did I read that the new helicopters will be able to operate in conditions that the old helicopters cant, and that in itself is reason enough.

Edric any stats on that, I worked with a lot of oil companies in the north sea and dont remember anything about Bristows helicopters falling out the sky regularly

Its not the sort of job that’d attract flip-flop types is it? You go into search and rescue as you want to help/save people so the motivation of the staff will be there.

My concern is people who repeatdly waste time with repeated call outs. That bloke with the boat thats been rescued countless times. Bad weather condition reports/people who ignore these and still set off thus putting search and rescue staff in danger themselves? (no I’m not talking about the recent stw/linked tragedy) – I’m talking about when the reports advise not to go out/climb due to blizzards/high warning etc and people who go inadequetly prepared for the conditions.

Inflammatory however we shouldn’t stop peoples sense of adventure.

Its not the sort of job that’d attract flip-flop types is it? You go into search and rescue as you want to help/save people so the motivation of the staff will be there.

My concern is people who repeatdly waste time with repeated call outs. That bloke with the boat thats been rescued countless times. Bad weather condition reports/people who ignore these and still set off thus putting search and rescue staff in danger themselves? (no I’m not talking about the recent stw/linked tragedy) – I’m talking about when the reports advise not to go out/climb due to blizzards/high warning etc and people who go inadequetly prepared for the conditions.

Inflammatory however we shouldn’t stop peoples sense of adventure.

the ability to fly low and fast in tight country

Now you started well, but that scored on the Guffometer. SAR is not about flying low and fast – that is silly.

If the rotary crews haven’t got so many resources tied up picking idiots in flipflops off mountains, perhaps they can do proper focused military training in the same cabs they use on operations? Better than having an OCU and different helicopters for the SAR role.
As for MACA – there will still be military helicopters.

the ability to fly low and fast in tight country

Now you started well, but that scored on the Guffometer. SAR is not about flying low and fast – that is silly.

As for MACA – there will still be military helicopters.

It is about flying low and/or in very tight terrain. And yes, on occasion fast – ever sat in the back of a SAR Sea King going full tilt around the narrower valleys of the Peak or North Wales? I have… Plus, I refer you to my other comment about providing a capability/service other than SAR – those additional tasks they are required to support most definitely do require low and fast…

MACA tasks – well yes but the SAR force has a standing commitment to provide those additional MACA tasks, JHC does not and support would therefore have to requested on a case-by-case basis, introducing all the beauraucracy and delay that would negate the advantages gained by use of the helis. Hence a standing task – can be authorised at the lowest level, in the same way that EOD teams provide routine support to the civil authorities…

perhaps they can do proper focused military training in the same cabs they use on operations?

Again, I’ll refer you to my earlier post that SAR flying provides skills that transfer directly to operational flying. Plus, I’m sure you are aware that Sea Kings are used by the Commando Helicopter Force in a green role… So the argument about different helis for the SAR role is not correct – Sea Kings are used on ops regularly.

did I read that the new helicopters will be able to operate in conditions that the old helicopters cant

Doubt it – the Sea King was designed for use off-shore and/or in extremes of weather as an “amphibious” heli. The newer aircraft should be as capable in the same conditions as they’ll effectively be fitted with the same avionics systems, weather radar, thermal imaging, etc, that Sea Kings have been upgraded with. The Sea King may be an old airframe in itself but the avionics package is just as up-to-date as any modern aircraft. You probably won’t see S92s or AW189s landing and taking off on water like the Sea King can though…

the argument about different helis for the SAR role is not correct – Sea Kings are used on ops regularly.

Yes – but the point is that SK is at the end of its life, 2016 and its gone, and the chances of using Merlin for civilian SAR when it costs about twice as much per hour flight time as SK is a no hoper.

(official treasury figure is somewhere in the region of £35k per hour for the merlin with everything taken into account, but a marginal cost of about £4k per additional hour is roughly the same as the SK, and those figures are a few years old now)

Might have to ensure I always carry a credit card when out walking in the mountains soon….

When were on OPs, we’d fly into the DZ. Sometimes if the DZ was running hot, we’d receive incoming from charlie our Huey’s would still stand up well.

ever sat in the back of a SAR Sea King going full tilt around the narrower valleys of the Peak or North Wales?

No, but I’ve been in the back of most of the rest whilst bumping about in fire breaks. Hooning a SAR around the valleys at full tilt is not what SAR is for.

As for other taskings. Well, things change. If the government isn’t willing to pay the bill, things change. I also know about Junglies, but having a whole fleet of old Sea Kings on SAR isn’t justified by one part of military aviation using a similar aircraft.

I’m a big fan of SAR and always have been, but things have to change and there is little justification for SAR in these focused and financially strapped times to remain military.