Firing staff

Five pages and no mention of shoes, bombers, slats or pudding? Standards are slipping.

My two-penn’orth is what most others have said. I’d file pinching unguarded chocolate under ‘annoying but everyone does it’ (I wouldn’t, because I’m not a dick, but I imagine it’s pretty common). But breaking into a locker I’d consider more serious, and stealing from the petty cash is firmly in the P45 category to my mind.

But. You have no proof. Moreover, you don’t even know for sure yourself. Maybe one of his co-workers got sick of his petty larceny and decided to set him up by stealing the cash, knowing full well he’d get blamed for it?

Are they in a union?

We had a load of cash stolen from the tuck shop at work. As there was no proof of who took it, we just wrote it off as bad luck. No one was fired.

If he has only worked there for 11 months the OP could simply let him go as “not being suitable”, he has no real employment rights. Internal processes not withstanding.

If he is certain that he went into somebodies locker by stealing the key, then that’s a sackable offence in IMO. Don’t think it’s from the information WTF is actually going on? Very possible that if he’s sacked then the rest of the team will be pissed off.

Dont forget STM brews beer, therefore he IS a god!

Hmm, I went to the trouble of bringing cake and biscuits in for everyone on this thread, but some thieving git has only gone and stolen them 😯

No, whoever it was, can they own up. They were next to the bog rolls, dishwasher tablets, petty cash tin and a big can of acid

If I were you, I’d ignore most of the ‘advice’ on this thread, and get some from someone who is actually knowledgeable in such matters, and legally qualified to give such advice. A barrister friend of ours, who specialises in employment law, would rip you to pieces if you even tried to sack this lad, based on the ‘evidence’ you have. One case she dealt with involved a lad who probably was a bit ‘dodgy’, but whose employers sacked him on the grounds he was ‘stealing’ (he put something through his staff account which had a nominal price assigned rather than an actual staff price, and he claimed he’d forgotten to chase it up. He had however informed his line manager of this, and they’d also forgotten. The ‘theft’ only came to light when the director went over the staff accounts and discovered the discrepancy. Of course, line manager etc denied any knowledge). 2 years ago and still ongoing. Almost definitely going to conclude in favour of the sacked lad. Company likely to pay all costs, plus compensation (and then I think a fine). Will result in company either going under or having to make drastic cuts, so several other jobs lost. All because they didn’t do their homework. It wasn’t theft. As for the 2-year rule; he’d worked for less than that. Employers have to give a reason for dismissal in al cases.

Another case involves a dismissal for gross misconduct which has now turned into a case against that company for discrimination and/or constructive dismissal. Looks like that company is going to be hit massively too.

TL;DR: Do your homework before you even think of sacking someone.

This chap has been given 5 pages, can’t imagine that isn’t sufficient back up.

A barrister friend of ours, who specialises in employment law, would rip you to pieces if you even tried to sack this lad, based on the ‘evidence’ you have.

Your barrister friend wouldn’t get very far in this case.

He can just sack him if he wants he only has 11 months service.

https://www.gov.uk/dismissal/what-to-do-if-youre-dismissed

Qualifying period to claim unfair dismissal

You must have worked for your employer for a minimum period before you qualify for the right to claim unfair dismissal at a tribunal. If you’re classed as an employee and started your job:

on or after 6 April 2012 – the qualifying period is normally 2 years
before 6 April 2012 – the qualifying period is normally 1 year

“He can just sack him if he wants he only has 11 months service.”

Not without giving a valid reason:

https://www.gov.uk/dismissal/overview

“If you’re dismissed, your employer must show they’ve:

a valid reason that they can justify
acted reasonably in the circumstances
They must also:

be consistent – eg not dismiss you for doing something that they let other employees do
have investigated the situation fully before dismissing you – eg if a complaint was made about you”

If you’re going to dismiss someone for theft, you really, really need to be able to prove that they did commit that offence. Which doesn’t seem to be the case here. The two year thing is only about bringing the case before an employment tribunal. You can bring a private case against an employer without any time constraint.

“This chap has been given 5 pages, can’t imagine that isn’t sufficient back up.”

😆

There is another important element to this story that STM hasn’t divulged.. not sure whether I should… 8)

There is another important element to this story that STM hasn’t divulged

That its a metaphor for Israeli land grabs in Palestine?

+100000000 Laxative justice.

I would have bought OP chocolates to share at work.

To go through a drawer, then somebody’s locker for anything? Fire him, plenty of people will take that 18K and be productive and honest.

To clarify a bit, because I got a bit confused myself ( 😳 ) !

If you’re alleging a criminal offence, and you give that as a reason, then the employee has a case against you under some other section of employment law. In the case I mentioned earlier, there was an accusation of theft which was unsubstantiated, which was expressed as the reason for dismissal. I think it had something to do with the fact that the employer did not report this to police, as they are legally obliged to do (if you aware a crime has happened, you are legally obliged to inform the police, or risk being guilty of joint enterprise of whatever it’s called), meaning that the reason for dismissal expressed put them in a very bad position.

There needs to be verbal warnings (with a representative of the person accused), written warnings and final warnings before you can bin someone.

It depends on the misconduct. If it’s gross misconduct you can bin someone immediately. Amazingly, you don’t have to give verbal warnings if the employee dismembers a customer on the shop floor…

what is gross misconduct?

LG: “It’s a serious breach of contract and includes misconduct which in your opinion causes serious damage to your business, or irreparably breaks down trust and relationships – for example, if someone hits another employee or is stealing.

Not without giving a valid reason:

OK. “Not suitable for the job”. You think that it’s unfair?

As you are NOT entitled to claim unfair dismissal after 11 months, what could he do?

Qualifying period to claim unfair dismissal
You must have worked for your employer for a minimum period before you qualify for the right to claim unfair dismissal at a tribunal. If you’re classed as an employee and started your job:

on or after 6 April 2012 – the qualifying period is normally 2 years
before 6 April 2012 – the qualifying period is normally 1 year

“There is another important element to this story that STM hasn’t divulged.. not sure whether I should..”

After five pages we deserve more….please.
We had chocolate cake today at work.
I snuck in a took a second piece when no one was there.fact.

If I were you, I’d ignore most of the ‘advice’ on this thread, and get some from someone who is actually knowledgeable in such matters

Most of the advice on here is the same as yours.

Gobuchul you want to copy and paste the rest of that law or just the part that makes you look right?

You know what
I wouldnt want any of you and your liberal , wrap it up in cotton wool , give me a hug , lets do some role play, benderisms working for me.
The irony of a prison guard advocating thats its perfectly OK to steal a locker key , enter a locker , remove posessions is somehow Ok morally as its all banter innit?. is lost on me .
Sorry , no . It fricken well isnt. Your parents should have taught you lot some respect for other peoples property.
Its not Ok to steal printer cartridges etc from your employer . When did theft from someone who tells you what to do at work become legit?
As for Emo management ..get lost.

I could fill the position really easily at very low cost if I had to.

However , As i am not manager of the month i forgot to check that he would be in work today , and it transpired he had a day booked off as holiday .

Brooes post was , in effect, the only one with any substance, and he will be given a bollocking and verbal warning and expalined to that it all stops right now. Last chance son . It also surfaced today that he somehow escaped a custodial sentance for theft, just got a suspended sentance.

Classic.

You need to separate the genuine issues with this guy from the stuff that just personally annoys you.

It’s not ok to describe someone as a thief because they eat more than their fair share of celebrations.

I wouldnt want any of you and your liberal , wrap it up in cotton wool , give me a hug , lets do some role play, benderisms working for me.

U OK HUN?

Brooes post was , in effect, the only one with any substance, and he will be given a bollocking and verbal warning and expalined to that it all stops right now. Last chance son . It also surfaced today that he somehow escaped a custodial sentance for theft, just got a suspended sentance.

So just like pretty much everyone else told you.

Have you got some evidence now?

I think it had something to do with the fact that the employer did not report this to police, as they are legally obliged to do (if you aware a crime has happened, you are legally obliged to inform the police, or risk being guilty of joint enterprise of whatever it’s called),

This is completely wrong.

What’s a “benderism”?

What’s a “benderism”?

It’s a singletrackmindism 😆

A benderism is a term that a wet behind the ears kid would use, perhaps the sort of casual insult a clueless person out of their depth might use.

Just my opinion. What the **** do I know.

What’s a “benderism”?

“Bite my Shiny Metal Ass” is the only one that springs to mind.

This is “badgeresque” comedy gold!

I’m personally loving the anger induced typos. Bash dem keys baby 😛

What’s a “benderism”?

There is another important element to this story that STM hasn’t divulged.. not sure whether I should…

What’s a “benderism”?

Benderism is what has now been divulged. Although the divulge was really more of an outburst.

Bite my shiny metal ass.

singletrackmind – Member
You know what
I wouldnt want any of you and your liberal , wrap it up in cotton wool , give me a hug , lets do some role play, benderisms working for me.

^^I think this excerpt and the post says rather a lot about your attitude, which regardless of the guilt of your employee is a disgrace. If people don’t agree with you they are inferior and you insult them. Many of the people offering reasonable advice (Including me) gave you the benefit of the doubt based on your lack of management experience. It seems from your last words that you didn’t deserve it.

Oh and while I wouldn’t tolerate petty theft, I wouldn’t tolerate a team manager who wanted to terminate someone with poor evidence either.

Your welcome OP, anything else you’d like our help with? 😆

You’re confusing an attitude to internet forum posters with an attitude to working the real world there jamj1974. Easily done, I know.

I wouldnt want any of you and your liberal , wrap it up in cotton wool , give me a hug , lets do some role play, benderisms working for me.

Erm…did you read any of the last few pages? Quite a few of us are trying to save your arse from the inevitable reaming because you can’t constructively contain an issue that started out as pilfered biscuits, but it reads more and more as though you’re unable to command any respect in your workplace. Not only that, you’ve freely acknowledged a reasonably serious health and safety breach has taken place with regard to the diluted acids. You’ve also guilelessly admitted you’re ultimately responsible for it…

However , As i am not manager of the month i forgot to check that he would be in work today , and it transpired he had a day booked off as holiday .

You arranged a disciplinary for someone, but “forgot” to check whether they were actually in that day? Seriously, this has to be some sort of a wind up, surely?

Christ.

I could fill the position really easily at very low cost if I had to.

Of course, why wouldn’t anyone wish to simply work for you for free?

And once again, because I couldn’t believe what I had just read:

…benderisms

1975 called, it wants it’s playground insults back. If this is the level of guile you have to fall back on when you’re being given free advice that you don’t like, then I would urge you to strongly reconsider whether you’re cut out for any supervisory role.

Apologies for the lack of humour, but I’m out.

I think we finally know where Gareth Kennan ended up after leaving Wernham Hogg.

Stm I doubt many would even consider working for you after this.

I could fill the position really easily at very low cost if I had to.

Buy cheap, buy twice. 🙂

Oh.

Dear.

Imagine working in the hospitality industry and over the course of your 15 year career having to sack several people who were friends at that point in time.

Whatever else happens, never forget that its real people’s lives your messing with. Sometimes they cant help but give you no choice, but most of the time, its down to you as the boss to find a way of making them better rather than finding someone better.