Finally, the SNP start talking about real issues….

It a condition of joining the Euro that your existing currency must fulfill certain criteria. I’ll leave you to work that one out.

Scotland could not be independent and keep the pound whilst being a member of the EU.

The UK is independent, kept the pound and is part of the EU. And they’re not alone.

Scotland doesn’t have the financial rescources to stand on it’s own as Salmond knows it.

Comprehensively debunked and not even put forward as an argument by the “Better Together” campaign these days.

Can’t we just give London it’s independence? If not I’d like Scotland to include Everything North of Hartlepool.

The UK is independent, kept the pound and is part of the EU. And they’re not alone.

But the UK is already before the Euro was ‘invented’.

The key indicator for me is if I thought the Scottish Politicians would still behave as though they’d the UK Exchequer behind them, then they couldn’t be trusted with independence.

They need to now realise we’ve only a couple of million paying the bills and spend accordingly, ie budget to income, not ability to tax and borrow.

Isn’t that what the current (and previous) UK lot do?

jambalaya – Member

Scotland doesn’t have the financial rescources to stand on it’s own as Salmond knows it.

Not sure if you’re trolling, or just very poorly informed. Not even the tories pretend this is true any more.

There is, I suppose, another explanation for the SNP’s apparently self-contradictory position: which is that with outright nationalists still a persistent minority within Scotland, they will win a “yes” in next year’s referendum only by securing the votes of those who are not certain of the wisdom of secession. Thus, Salmond offers them continued post-independence allegiance to the Queen as head of state and the Sovereign’s head on coins in Scottish pockets.

Interesting piece from Dominic Lawson in the Indy today.

Keep the english pound ? Won’t that be a long way for people from Inverness to drive to get to the bank machine ??

How about we make potatoes the currency ? Sorry, tatties.

(a) It’s the the Independent (there’s irony for you)
(b) The position isn’t “self contradictory”
(c) How dare the Yes campaign have policies attractive to the majority of voters.

grum – Member

I seriously think that if Scotland does get independence there should be a campaign to allow the North of England to become part of it (if you’ll have us). I know it will never happen but I would say we have a lot more in common with Scotland than with the south east of England/London.

I think you will find anyone north of the border would welcome any part of Northern England to join up. Make the border a line just north of Blackpool (sorry :lol:) across to Hornsea.

Now that sounds good to me. All the best bits of the UK in one new country, i dont know why the SNP doesnt through that one out there.

@Northwind – not trolling at all. We are living in a world where countries need scale to survive, I’m not at all sure an independent Scotland would be granted membership of the EU and outside it they would screwed.

Read the indie article this morn, there are indeed some interesting points raised.

Reminded me of this Rothchild quote…

“Give me control of a nation’s money
and I care not who makes the laws.”

We are living in a world where countries need scale to survive

Looking at Scandinavia and the Nordics, they seem to be doing pretty well.

I’m not at all sure an independent Scotland would be granted membership of the EU and outside it they would screwed.

Like Norway?

franksinatra – Member
I just worry that the only people I know who would vote for independence are those who list Braveheart as one of their favourite films….

Braveheart is not one of my favourite films. I will be voting for independence. Why – because I think it will give my kids a better future.

Like Norway?

If those beer prices ever made it to Scotland…………… 😯

What the ‘yes’ campaign need a few examples of how they’d make Scotland a better place to be for its citizens, because this is actually all that matters. And also to be honest of where they think we’ll have problems.

And what anyone who doesn’t live in Scotland thinks, is irrelevent – they don’t live here.

they don’t live here

Not Scotland, but they might live in the UK. Which will be somewhat effected by it all.

B r , totally agree with your comment. At the moment, I just don’t see enough talk that convinces me that the independence sought by the snp is worth it.

At the moment I think as a scot, we have enough of an identity nationally and internationally, that makes us differentiated and independent people.

As per the original post, the hurdles to overcome and the as far as I can see, the lack of evidence to convince me they are worth jumping over , makes me think no at the moment.

fisha – you need to ask yourself this… Are you happy with the way the UK is currently being run and the direction in which it is travelling. If so, that’s great. Stick with it and vote No. If you’re not happy, then ask yourself what chance there is of it changing. If you can foresee a better future within the UK, then again vote No.

sr,

I’ll likely never be happy with the way the country is run. 🙂 I think at the moment I fall into the latter half of your post.

but its not so much that I see a better future by being in the uk, more that I’m not convinced that a yes for independence would by default create a better scotland, which is the impression I get from the incessant ‘it will be better…’ that is put forward by the SNP.

I want to be told: ‘it will be better … because of / and this is why …’ but I feel at the moment that such follow up isnt there, instead I feel its:

UK Bloke: ‘Alex, you’ll need to fully apply to the EU from scratch…(or some similar, reasonable question)’

Alex: ‘Yer arse man, we’re Scots, pure braw n that. us gallus independent jocks will get in the EU bae bother pal.’

UK Bloke:’but seriously Alex, how will you overcome EU issues?’

Alex: ‘Look see fellow daily record/sun reading Scotlanders (pointing to uk bloke), see how this shandy drinking fool mocks our independence cause … he knows nothing… freeeeeedooom …. ‘mon the scots….’

Daily Rangers Record reader in ned voice: ‘haaaaaaw haaaaaaw maaan, Alex’s puure put the malky to that dobba maaaan, whiut a daftie maaaan, courtney-versace … gonnae look after the wean whilst ah go n get ma script? … pure hope the polis dinnae see me … bet ahve got a warrant fur me no paying that fine maaaann. That Alex’s the business … says i’ll get mare pay in ma giro … ah’ll vote aye man nae bother like fur independence’

—————-

and so the questions still remain unanswered.

me? cynical? 🙂

Scottish votes haven’t decided the outcome of a Westminster election since at least the War

Have you checked that with Nick Clegg?

2010 without Scotland:
Conservative, 305
Labour, 217
LibDem, 46
Others, 23
Total, 591
Conservative majority, 19

unfortunately you can’t check with Wilson or Heath

Feb 1974 without Scotland:
Conservative, 275
Labour, 261
Liberal, 11
Others, 17
Total, 564

Oct 1974 without Scotland:
Conservative, 260
Labour, 278
Liberal, 10
Others, 16
Total, 564

are you suggesting that Wilson might have formed a government when not the leader of the largest party, or managed 5 years with a minority government?

I’m not Scottish so my personal view is probably unimportant but a cursory of the key questions is quite interesting – there are precious few answers to questions such as:

– Can the 1.2m workers in the private sector in Scotland support the remaining 4m population including the roles in the public sector, the young, old, sick and unemployed?

– What are the additional direct costs of independence e.g. picking up a share of the bank bailout / RBS bailout costs, adding an extra layer of civil service roles etc?

– What’s the additional cost to Scottish tax payers of picking up all of the social and welfare costs when at the moment Scotland receives significantly more out than it pays in….

– Are comparisons with the Scandinavian countries wishful thinking or good bell weathers for a future independent state?

– What are the costs of delayed entry to the EU if as seems to be the case automatic entry is not possible?

– If it goes wrong, what’s the plan B, and assuming plan B needs support from south of the border, what will happen if this support isn’t forthcoming?

– What’s the additional cost to Scottish tax payers of picking up all of the social and welfare costs when at the moment Scotland receives significantly more out than it pays in….

I thought this had been shown to largely be a myth?

– What’s the additional cost to Scottish tax payers of picking up all of the social and welfare costs when at the moment Scotland receives significantly more out than it pays in….

I think this is bollocks, is it not?

As is most of the rest of that post. I don’t blame the poster (robdixon) for that. It’s more to do with the amount of dis-information that has been around for so long.

– What’s the additional cost to Scottish tax payers of picking up all of the social and welfare costs when at the moment Scotland receives significantly more out than it pays in..

IMO the fact there’s still debate over whether or not Scotland makes more than it receives means the question is still open. It’s unlikely to be “significantly more”, though: if it were, the debate would have been won by now.

Scotland gives more to the exchequer than it receives – £9.6bn vs. £9.3bn or something like that.

Not Scotland, but they might live in the UK. Which will be somewhat effected by it all.

But it’s the Scots voting to stay/leave, not the rest of the UK voting to keep or get rid of them – therefore the view of the rest of the UK IS irrelevent.

What’s the additional cost to Scottish tax payers of picking up all of the social and welfare costs when at the moment Scotland receives significantly more out than it pays in….

In 2012 Scotland raised 9.6% of UK revenue, received 9.3% of spending and has 8.6% of the population.

Unemployment in Scotland is below the UK average

So the additional cost will be zero

br: You appear to be viewing it purely as a matter of effecting the outcome for Scotland. Which is fair enough.

I’m viewing it more as to the overall effects of the Unions dynamics. Scottish Independence would effect more than just the Scots. In this context the opinions of those outside Scotland do matter.

There are consequences to actions, and they’ll need to be addressed.

The choice of whether independence happens is a matter for those who live there.

But it’s the Scots voting to stay/leave, not the rest of the UK voting to keep or get rid of them

–

Actually it’s the people on the electoral roll in Scotland who get to vote, so that includes resident foriegn nationals. It doesn’t include a number of notable Scots nationalists 😉

therefore the view of the rest of the UK IS irrelevent.

the rest of the country can’t self determine to be be without you?

What is sauce for the goose is also sauce for the gander 😉

It seems to me that successful long term Scots independence really depends on whether more North Sea oil is found (there are some interesting discoveries coming along) and this gives Scotland a chance to build up a National Wealth Fund like Norway (which you would do now if you hadn’t been part of the UK). This would give the backing to make Scotland prosper, give big infrastructure funds, develope large scale long term carbon free energy etc..

Without this money, Scotland is essential a small and not very prosperous country (for instance the local area where I live the combined property value is greater than the whole of Glasgow FT article which is obscene BTW) I’ve lived there and travelled all over, really like it but I feel that independence would be an oil gamble.

Or perhaps a windy gamble

To be fair, most economic policies for future prosperity look like “gambles” to me.

Without this money, Scotland is essential a small and not very prosperous country (for instance the local area where I live the combined property value is greater than the whole of Glasgow FT article which is obscene BTW)

I’m not really sure what a property bubble supported by banking bonuses and rich foreign gangsters emigres has to do with Scotland’s prosperity.

UK GDP per Capita $38,589. Scotland GDP per capita $43,492.

Without London, England would be completely screwed. Without England Scotland will be okay

Without London, England would be completely screwed.

IIRC London is subsidised by the rest of the country.

London and the SE of England are the only parts of the UK (other than Scotland) that run “at a profit”. They support the rest. I’m not suggesting this is a good thing.

How are those figures even calculated? If Sainsburys makes more all over the UK but it gets reported to the revenue from its Holborn office, does that mean London gets the credit?

Bollocks! You’re not telling me Blackpool isn’t profitable!

Alex Salmond once claimed that Scotland would be the 5th richest (GDP per capita) country in the world. This claim has since been debunked by independent analysts. It would, in fact, only be the 15th…..